Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey everyone, appreciate the suggestions.
I have debated some changes and feel I owe explanation to card choices. First off, the reason I want SFM is the over-abundance of RUG Delver, Bug, and Burn in the St. Louis area. There are a TON of these decks around, and I know I will run into them like I have the other 3 legacy opens I have played in here in StL. I agree that 3 Enlightened Tutors and 4 Snappys are too high, and will cut to 2 and 2 Respectively, freeing up 3 spaces in the MD. Will replace the Riptide with another island and take out Tundra #4 for another plains. If I can find a Karakas for the event tomorrow, I will use one -- the same goes for a SB Humility. With the new space in the MD, I was considering adding the following:
Option 1:
1 Arid Mesa, 1 SDT
Option 2:
1 SDT, 1 Clique
Option 3:
1 SDT, 1 Echoing Truth
I feel that Echoing Truth is definitely a good tech in the deck. It helps me deal with a lot of troublesome cards and can dispose of them via Counterbalance. Once again I appreciate the feedback.
Off-Topic: I am new to the forum, is there a sticky for learning how to link cards? Thanks.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
my 2 cents: if you're not playing 4 Tops already, add the fourth
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Stoneforge Mystic is a fine card. Nobody can put up too much of an argument otherwise, even though a lot of Miracle decks don't play it. As for your options, I like Echoing Truth the least. You already have a pair of Detention Spheres which have a similar effect.
Since you are running two Disenchants, you could possibly change one of them into a Seal of Cleansing. The downside is that you cannot use Snapcaster on it. Upside is that you can preemptively lay it down so that you are protected from Choke or Counterbalance, and that you can Enlightened Tutor for it if you need to.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
So you guys think that actually the rip+helm version is not the best version? Would you change to the legendary+Karakas version? I used to play Alex Binek version http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/vis...75592&id=10367 but i dont know if its the best i can play with as many bug as i see.
Sorry for my english is not my maternal language.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Manroe
If you're dead-set on running Tutors, I would make sure that you both have the fourth Top and a maindeck Rest in Peace. The Top is close to nonoptional, in many ways, it's the best card in the deck. RiP gives you the best card to fight against RUG and several other strategies where you don't lose much in the way of consistency by running it as a 1-of with two Tutors but have an awful lot to gain.
@fluuu
I don't think Helm is the way to go, it requires you to run more dead cards against BUG and a lot has to go right for it to work better than other options in that matchup. They have all of the best ways of fighting it and more than enough ways to hang in a grindy game. I find that the best ways to beat them are with an Entreat for 2+ or Jace-locking them if you manage to get to that stage in the game. They're hard-pressed for ways to beat Entreat with a counterspell to back it up. Elspeth is also fine because she blocks goyfs forever and kills Jace. Personally I think that the legendary 5-creature version is the best suited build of the deck at the moment, but you have to account for what you expect to see in your own metagame and your play style. There are so many ways to take the core of the archetype that what works best for me may not work for you.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
James Dean
I don't think Helm is the way to go, it requires you to run more dead cards against BUG and a lot has to go right for it to work better than other options in that matchup. They have all of the best ways of fighting it and more than enough ways to hang in a grindy game.
Even if RIP Miracles isn't as effective against BUG (and with all of their Goyfs and Deathrites, I'm not sure that is even the case), but even if it isn't as good as vanilla Miracles, you'll maybe only bump into them once or twice during a big tournament. RIP/Helm just tears up all of the random decks and quirky situations that you'll get into. Sure, it's cheesy sometimes, but when you are playing a deck as grindy as we are and staring down the clock in game 3, I'd rather have the ability to just instantly win over a single turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
James Dean
I find that the best ways to beat them are with an Entreat for 2+ or Jace-locking them if you manage to get to that stage in the game. They're hard-pressed for ways to beat Entreat with a counterspell to back it up.
A good Entreat is definitely the best way to beat BGx. I really don't think it's the fact that RIP is "clunky" so much as vanilla Miracles tends to run 2-3 Entreat in its 75, while RIP Miracles only runs 1-2. You can (and possibly should) be playing RIP Miracles alongside 2-3 Entreats in this meta. RIP and multiple Entreats don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fluuu
So you guys think that actually the rip+helm version is not the best version? Would you change to the legendary+Karakas version? I used to play Alex Binek version
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/vis...75592&id=10367 but i dont know if its the best i can play with as many bug as i see.
Sorry for my english is not my maternal language.
I think there doesn't exist a BEST Version, it just depends in your playstyle & your local meta.
For example:I played the RIP/Helm Version at friday against my buddy's with BUG (2:1), german ***** (burg 6:2) and B/W (3:1) and Dredge (2:0).
The results werde quiet good but I still will not play hat version in the future because I realized that this is not my playstyle.
Moreover, the games which i won with the helm combo would have won by ETA too even if I'm a big fan oft RIP MD^^
For me personally I will play a more flashy Version with Clique, Snappy and a mix between cheap counters (snare, pierce, counterspell, Force) and PW's like Jace + 2-3 ETA...
Another thing with the Helm/balance Version was that the games went very long and we were not able to play 3 games in 45-50 minutes like in a real tournament. A big ETA eot win the game more fast...And I like the fact that there decays, swords, bolts are dead/weak...RIP got stifled, snared, Pierce or decayed most oft the time too.
CB and RIP in the SB should be fine right now but as I said before -> play a deck hat fits your playstyle...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The more DRS out there in the field, the better Rip-helm will do. This is especially true now DRS is in Stoneforge, Jund, and BUG.
The problem with Angel Spell version is inefficiency. When your opponent is abusing graveyard because Goyf and Past in Flames, the flashback-ing of Snapcaster appears to be cute and random. It is painful sometimes you can tell Miracle wants to use StP twice but the player does not have it, he has to flashback brainstorm instead to dig deeper.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi all.
I am new to this and am thinking of playing this deck to an upcoming tournament.
Here is the decklist I have so far, it is basically a mix of what I have seen floating about.
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mystic Gate
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wear/Tear
1 Counterspell
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Misdirection
1 Humility
How does this look? I see a lot of lists are running spell pierce but I don't have that in my list, do I really need it?
Are there any obvious changes I should make?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
From a glance, what I see possibly lacking is the number of counter-magic -- not necessarily spell pierce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
magic_gazz
Hi all.
I am new to this and am thinking of playing this deck to an upcoming tournament.
Here is the decklist I have so far, it is basically a mix of what I have seen floating about.
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mystic Gate
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wear/Tear
1 Counterspell
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Misdirection
1 Humility
How does this look? I see a lot of lists are running spell pierce but I don't have that in my list, do I really need it?
Are there any obvious changes I should make?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
How does porphyry nodes force them to over commit? They just let their creatures die, nodes dies, and they start over. It buys you some time, maybe but it doesn't force them to commit more.
The problem with nodes is: it doesn't solve your problem right away, it's painfully slow and ineffective when you want a certain target gone fast. It's certainly not better than swords.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
you play it when they have 2-3 creatures. if you manage to get rid of those you have a good card advantage (overall if you have Elspeth and chump block them)
card advantage
tempo gainer
if they really "love" a creature for strategy or whatever they over commit playing more creatures to save them...
I would test a couple, actually. My question is: has someone already tried them? with what results?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Lol nah this card is probably just bad. You play it when they got 2-3 creatures? Congrats! They will just continue to kill you! You will chumpblock with Elspeth? Well why you need Nodes again? Nah dude this card is just horrible for the purposes you mentioned!
Though it has some upsides too! It is "W: Kill target Mungo, take 3." - which isn't bad at all. But it is not good against bigger amounts of creatures. Swords is still the best Pointremoval and Terminus/Clasm is superior to Nodes when dealing with multiple creatures. I would not know why I would really play that card.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
to stay on colors and not go for Pyroclasm, but, yes, Pyro is definitly better (with RiP) is almost a wrath of god
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
Supreme Verdict is pitchable to FoW and yes the uncounterable suit is very important against tempo Decks (RUG, TA, UWR). I play atm a 4th terminus but verdict has his advantages...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
to stay on colors and not go for Pyroclasm, but, yes, Pyro is definitly better (with RiP) is almost a wrath of god
There is probably no reason not to play red.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
1. Pitch to FoW and it Actually sweeps against RUG delver and Stoneblades, not running into opponent's Spell Pierce and FoW.
2. Nodes can be played around and it's slow. Smart players will minimize what Nodes can do, I personally tested Nodes myself, even Goblin players know how to play around it. If you play 1 Node against 1 opponent's creature, the 1-for-1 trade is inefficient, if you wait until you can 2-for-1, the damage from these creatures might be too much. You seem to test Nodes against mediocre players who don't know how to play around it.
Why would you run Pyro at sorcery speed when you can just instant W and remove better? When it comes down to mass creature removal,
1. Terminus
2. Supreme Verdict
Please do not hype up Pyroclasm, when it cannot deal with a popular card known Goyf.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
1. Pitch to FoW and it Actually sweeps against RUG delver and Stoneblades, not running into opponent's Spell Pierce and FoW.
2. Nodes can be played around and it's slow. Smart players will minimize what Nodes can do, I personally tested Nodes myself, even Goblin players know how to play around it. If you play 1 Node against 1 opponent's creature, the 1-for-1 trade is inefficient, if you wait until you can 2-for-1, the damage from these creatures might be too much. You seem to test Nodes against mediocre players who don't know how to play around it.
Why would you run Pyro at sorcery speed when you can just instant W and remove better? When it comes down to mass creature removal,
1. Terminus
2. Supreme Verdict
Please do not hype up Pyroclasm, when it cannot deal with a popular card known Goyf.
In his version with rip it can! And its quiet nice massremoval for 2 magna (fast against Decks like el es or goblins). Sometimes you just draw your terminus in your opening 7 and habe no BS. In situations linke hat is a pyroclasm quiet nice.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
In his version with rip it can! And its quiet nice massremoval for 2 magna (fast against Decks like el es or goblins). Sometimes you just draw your terminus in your opening 7 and habe no BS. In situations linke hat is a pyroclasm quiet nice.
and pyroclasm is a dead card when:
1. Goyf in play, most of time.
2. Mongoose has threshold.
3. Batterksull in play.
4. Useless in any Show and Tell variants, at least Terminus and Supreme Verdict have a chance.
