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With the current metagame (DRS everywhere), I'm starting to think Firestorm main would be the way to go. I'll play Manaless but mulling to Contagion (or simply mulling for that matter) just isn't right for that deck.
Probably a standard quad laser list -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Putrid Imp, for +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast?
As far as troublesome creatures what are we talking here? DRS is too slow for LED Dredge it can't keep up and theyr'e forced to leave mana up; DRS is usually in decks that are already running greedy manabeses and it strains them further when they need to keep the green up for DRS. Its also not too bad when they can't pull enchantments from the yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
tbh the only creature I care about (other than Scavenging Ooze) would be Dark Confidant as it finds them additional hate, but if you're planning on running DB I guess that takes care of him.
Also I wouldn't cut Careful Study..
Hey Guys! New to the forums here but Ive been a lurker for a while. This is my dredge list but I am having a little trouble with a side board. I know they are meta dependant, but if I wanted to run a sort of catch all (or at least catch most lol) sb What would you suggest i run? Here is my md
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of brass
4 Cephillid Coliseum
4 L E D
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from below
3 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeaba
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the hatebound
1 Griselbrand
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave troll
I am just not sure what would be good as I dont really have a legacy meta in my area to prepare for so I was just wondering what your opinions were for a good Catch all sideboard.
Hi and welcome.
I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?
As far as sideboard goes, the popular option seems to be something like this:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Undiscovered paradise or Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation
That should cover you from other peoples graveyard strategies (Leyline), targetted removal (Ghouls) or Artifact\Enchantment hate (claims\grudges\rays)
The additional land come in to support the repeated bringing back of Ghouls and casting Nature's claims
The other option since you're playing DR, is to go for one of creatures like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Despair.
I'm by no means an expert, but i hope any of this is helpful.
Very helpful. I was running four studies and three breakthough, But I was kinda trying to go for balls out combo with the deck. The extra studies do add alot of consistency, but I like having the extra ichorid to ensure i can cast dread return and the 3 dr are there to make sure i get to cast it twice (to win with flayer) But thank you for the sb buddy I appriciate it very much. I was thinking about ghouls so I could side out the combo and go for a grindy kinda match so thats def worth consideration. Is ley line the best call there? The claims I get and that cards good, but the leylines would mainly be for the mirror? or decks that run tarmgoyf? or just try to recur anything? What are dredges worst match ups in your opinion? Cause thats what I want to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by ween
Edit: ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?
Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.
I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.
Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.
As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.
Thank you very much for the reply that makes things a bit more clear. I'll wait till somebody clears up the ley line deal, but but I was thinking maybe coffin purge, scene it really wouldn't interfere with "the plan" and I would be siding in lands anyway. But if that's not enough, what about farie macabre or whatever. It certainly seems like she ain't no hoe and Ichoroid can eat her. I don't know I guess that's why I'm Askin lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ween
Actually, Show & Tell is a really good matchup. They offer no disruption other than permission (which this deck really ignores), and they pretty much die to Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ween
Another point: People are really not playing that much Graveyard Hate in their sideboard, due to Deathrite Shaman dominance. I think Dredge can be well positioned in the current meta, if one knows how to pilot it.
@SquirtMcGirt
My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.
You know, I was playing with just 1 Dr main and no target other than troll. I didn't have a win now card, but it really felt like it didn't need it. I just had a buddy who nabbed me a flayer and a gristle brand and was like sweet. It is nice winning the turn you go nuts. Maybe sideboard insta kill? For matches where winning now matters? Like combo and such. Firestorm looks sexy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
The problem with Dredge is that most cards behave to Dredge like Leylines. You need them in your starting seven because you will not "draw" cards normally in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
Some people used Faerie Macabre. But you also need to mull for them like you mull for Leylines.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
Coffin Purge may be cast from the graveyard, but is likely to get countered by Reanimator and unlikely to stop opposing Dredge decks, while Leyline must be answered by them.
In my meta however Dredge and Reanimator are on the decline. We have Jund, Junk, Stoneblade, BUG, Canadian and Storm here. So the Leyline slot would most likely go to Firestorm I think. The slot would be wasted by improving the Storm matchup I think.
I have to agree here. Therapy is one of the single best cards in Dredge and I would never cut one of them. If you really need to go down to 3 in your MD you should consider 1 slot in your sideboard for the 4th Therapy...but then again I would board it in every matchup :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Study and Looting should be maxed out. They help you in games 2/3 to dig for antihate against cards like Cage oder Leyline. They also do something on their own, while Breakthrough needs a discard outlet to be really useful. Breakthrough also gets boardet out in grindgames, while Looting and Study stays if I remember my boarding plans correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ween
I am playing the Quadlazer Dredge from the OP for reference -1 Citadel +1 Paradise. I switched to Dread Return and Targets from time to time because I liked the comboish feeling. But I haven't done so for about a 3/4 year.
Another Dredge deck that top8'ed a bigger event here was this (if you don't want to give up DR entirely):
Deck: 5. Andreas Müller, LED-Dredge http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif
//Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
//Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
//Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Breakthrough
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Show Deckstats
Greetings Chris
Hi everyone!
I'm preparing for a quite big tournament (60-70 people) with my favourite deck: dredge, of course!
Now I'm running a quadlazer list, but I would really like to win with a comboish version with Flayer + DR. The problem is that DRS is the card right now, and I really fear an activation in response to DR. And, main problem, I don't like at all mulliganing caused by lack of nuts in the opening seven. I don't want any DR o Flayer in my opening hand. So, that's why I'm still into the Quadlazer list, even if it can finish the match slower that DR-Flayer lists.
What I would like to ask you is only about sideboard composition and how to play some match-ups.
That's my sideboard:
4 firestorm
4 nature's claim
2 dread return
1 griselbrand
2 tarnished citadel
2 memory's journey
My meta is composed mainly by BUG, Esper/UWr Stoneblade, Miracles (rip-helm and classic), Maverick (classic and with black), Canadian and some Goblins.
By now I went better with DRs + Griselbrand than Ashen Ghoul, because, even if I can find them in my opening hand, the big Demon is way too better than Ghouls, he is big, gains life, lets me flip my deck and can do something in response to swords to plowshares. Also, Griselbrand can help me abuse Firestorm in some match-ups like Goblins or Elves. First question, do you think is [-2 DR -1 Grisel--> +2 ashen ghoul + 1 ray of revelation/a.grudge/ingot chewer] a better way? Do you think that with the presence of DRS having a target in grave could be a mistake? Let me know!
I think I don't need to explain Journey: it's simply too good vs Miracles to shuffle away Terminus and other stuff! It also can be useful in mirror, or against Surgical.
Then, I would like to ask you how to efficiently combat Rest in Peace. I tried exploding trying to strip their hand, but they still have brainstorms and sensei's top to find RIP. Anyway if I can make a solid board position I am quite safe of RIP too, but Terminus is still a card.. So I can board in Nature's Claim, and try to slow play until they show RIP, but their few counters are perfect to get rid of my Claims. Then I thought to Wispmare, but I think it could be effective only as a 3-of in the board, and I don't have that space. Let me know how do you beat Miracles, because I found it a very though MU.
That's all for now, thanks to everyone!
Reanimator is pretty much non existent right now. So, Leylines are kind of a waste for only one matchup, the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
I sort of hate Firestorm, but I can't really think of a better sideboard card either. Those last four slots could probably be anything at the moment. Maybe a couple Dread Returns and a couple targets to reanimate? I am not sure what those cards should be but Leylines do seem like a waste at the moment.
Firestorm is not that bad. It reads "Wrath of God + you win the game" :-) But I do not think it is needed. It was nice against Merfolk and in times of Mental Misstep as uncouterable discard outlet...but thats it. I just can't imagine other cards for the Dredge sideboard that would be useful today.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I do not think targets would be useful with everyone playing Deathrite Shaman. You can easily remove the one and only target with DRS while removing one Ichorid does not hurt that much. Elesh Norn might be a wreckining ball to the top decks though ^^
I didn't play Dredge on bigger tournaments for a while now...I think GP Gent was the last time. Back there most UW Miracle decks used Surgical Extraction if I remember correctly. I probably boardet something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghiwo
-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Breakthrough
+3 lands
+3 Ashen Ghoul
You could slowroll them pretty easy back then by holding back your threats. Good targets for Cabal Therapy were Brainstorm, Surgical Extraction and Swords to Plowshares or Top on the play turn 1, though this depends highly on boardstates etc...
I have no idea if they use RiP over Surgical Extraction now. If they do you might want boarding something like this:
-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Breakthrough
+4 Nature’s Claim
+3 lands
This is the same way I would board against Helm Combo I think. Our Matchup versus Helm Combo might be much worse though.
As I stated above I would not use targets because DRS can remove them easily. One removed Griselbrand might be one removed Ichorid less...but I think Ghouls are just better to diversify your threats against Surgical Extractions. When using Ghouls I would run the third rainbowland. The additional mana is helpful in using your Claims too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghiwo
It is not that much slower I think. I played with and without DR. To play DR + targets you need to cut really good cards which is wrong in my opinion. And for the speed advantage: To kill someone with Flayer you generally need to flip a good chunk of you deck. In this situation you can rip their most relevant cards of their hands while generating zombies in the process with Ichorid already lurking in the grave. In most cases it is not relevant if you pass the turn at this point or not, because you have virtually won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghiwo
I like Flayer for giving you reach against prison cards though. But in my opinion Quadlaser is just more consistant and has the better grinding game.
Greetings Chris
do I have too announce who I am targeting with cabal therapy as I cast it or as its resolving?
You choose which player is going to be targeted on casting, and you only name the card you want them to discard after it resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
Thank you, Thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Hey guys! After proxying up some decks with death rite shaman and some other decks and testing them with a friend, I've settled on this list.
4 coliseum
4 city
4 gemstone
4 led
4 therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
1 dread return
4 bridge
4 putrid imp
4 narco
4 ichorid
1 gristlebrand/sun titan
3 thug
4 stinky
4 troll
But I'm having trouble deciding which dude to run. Titan or gristlebrand? The latter can be eaten by ichorid but the former is really good too. To me it seems gristlebrand can be a bit too much sometimes but the life link is nice. The titan brings back led or critters. What do you guys think?
Oh for my sb
4 leyline
4 claim
1 ancient grudge
1 dakmor salvage
1 sun titan/undiscovered paradise
1 elesh norn grand cenobite
1 dread return
If I run titan main I will run the extra land in the sb. Any thoughts? I got the main jist of my list from the posts above (I see now why therapy is so important) and I really like this "almost quad lazer" list (that's what I decided it's called lol) I didn't get a chance to test firestorm out but that could be good in a few match ups I think. I'll have to check it out.
Griselbrand is better than Sun Titan. The ability to flip your deck and win is awesome. But if you're running only 1 Dread Return, you shouldn't run a target. I think 2 is the mininum number for Dread Returns before adding targets for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
@Thread
Since Reanimator and Lands.dec are struggling against Deathrite Shaman (more than we are), I think Sideboard Leylines are not necessary in today's meta. Firestorm is a nice replacement for it and it kills the god damned creature, and can ping in for damage. Iona is not at it's best, because every deck now has three colors. But she's still fine against combo (well, better than Hypnotist).
My list is the same as the one I posted before, with a little change:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus (flex-slot)
I took out Ray of Revelation because I just haven't cast it in years. Woodfall Primus reminds me of the good old LED Dredge times (without Faithless Looting), where he was my beloved target to screw Survival of the Fittest & Co.
Took out Undiscovered Paradise from maindeck because I've had enough awkward situations with Cephalid Coliseum. I knew that would happen eventually.
Deck has been running smoothly, you should give it a try.
Yeah I was thinking about another dr main but honestly I like 4 ichorid too much, 4 putrid imp is epic as well. ive tried running just 2 thug but it doesnt feel like enough. I like my misers dr package. If i get brand with out the dr, he feeds ichorid, If i get the dr without brand, I get troll, Ive even brought back an ichorid just to make more zombies as well. I have noticed an astonishing lack of graveyard hate in top eight decklists places so maybe losing the leylines is a good call. firestorms good for alot of reasons. I really havent had alot of trouble with land, so the extra 1s I have put in the sb for ensuring I can cast claim. What about memorys journey? That card seems really good. could save bridges and narcos or dredgers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I simply hate Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge. 95% of the time you combo out with draw spells you're tapped out. And people just won't wait a turn before using their Surgical Extraction, they'll just exile the hell out of your business and you won't be able to do anything. Dredge has a really tight mana, and can't afford to leave mana open to do those tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt
Another utility for those cards is against Reanimator, but this deck is already pretty much dead on the field. It's really lackluster in the mirror, and has no other applications than "sometimes" saving you from Extraction.
If you want to play arround Surgical Extraction, play proactive with Nether Shadows or Ashen Ghouls, or even a broad Dread Return option.