[Primer] Elves!

The point was about the amount of targets we actually want to hit compared to the cards we have that would actually allow us to :smile:. The enchantments example is mainly to identify which cards we'd actually want to be able to kill, nothing more. It's there mainly to make clear our Thoughtseizes and Abrupt Decays probably won't be enough to hit all the targets we want to :smile:, hence the need for more removal in one form or another.

It's not that I want to NO the Bane specifically b/c of the enchantments (if we only care about that, we have Abrupt Decay to deal with most of them), but because of the Terminus you can expect to hit your Progenitus.
NO for a Progenitus that gets Terminus'd - you go 2-for-1.
NO for a Bane that gets Terminus'd - you go 2-for-1 + the number of cards the Bane took out.
This means you've turned the 2-for-1 into at least a 2-for-2 and perhaps even a 2-for-4, and your opponent just recurred your removal "spell" for you so you can do it again.

Concerning Omnitell: That just means that taking out a Cabal Therapy doesn't hurt that particular match-up all that much since it probably won't occur :smile:. On the other hand, TNN is making the format more combo friendly, so who knows what the future will bring?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

The point was about the amount of targets we actually want to hit compared to the cards we have that would actually allow us to :smile:. The enchantments example is mainly to identify which cards we'd actually want to be able to kill, nothing more. It's there mainly to make clear our Thoughtseizes and Abrupt Decays probably won't be enough to hit all the targets we want to :smile:, hence the need for more removal in one form or another.

It's not that I want to NO the Bane specifically b/c of the enchantments (if we only care about that, we have Abrupt Decay to deal with most of them), but because of the Terminus you can expect to hit your Progenitus.
NO for a Progenitus that gets Terminus'd - you go 2-for-1.
NO for a Bane that gets Terminus'd - you go 2-for-1 + the number of cards the Bane took out.
This means you've turned the 2-for-1 into at least a 2-for-2 and perhaps even a 2-for-4, and your opponent just recurred your removal "spell" for you so you can do it again.

Concerning Omnitell: That just means that taking out a Cabal Therapy doesn't hurt that particular match-up all that much since it probably won't occur :smile:. On the other hand, TNN is making the format more combo friendly, so who knows what the future will bring?

---

I think Regal Force would be better at maintaining CA vs. sweepers than Bane.


Side Note: How many people are moving away from the white splash? Pridemage is the only thing holding me back right now...is it worth it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benjammn

I think Regal Force would be better at maintaining CA vs. sweepers than Bane.

---

If you have a big enough board presence when it hits the board. It also doesn't break any locks your opponent might have set up. Though, admittedly, again, given a big enough board presence, it might fetch you the cards you need (probably Abrupt Decay) to break said lock. On the other hand, give a big enough board presence Hoof should be able to do the job, eliminating the need for Regal Force. What both the Bane and Progenitus have going for them is that both of them are perfectly happy being the only creature on your side of the board after NO'ing for them, which is a very plausible scenario when fighting a large number of counters/sweepers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nudon

The problem with playing counters is that it is too reactive. Elves is a deck that wants to tap out every turn (especially when racing against other combo decks). Discard allows you to disrupt their game-plan without potentially dazing yourself each turn. Cabal therapy is a common sb card due to it's flashback synergy. Gitaxian probe is used in storm variants as pseudo protection against FoW and to generate a free storm count. This deck is more resilient against counters due to its aggro plan and card draw. Moreover, the extra storm count generated is irrelevant and might even be a liability against random people bringing in MbT. The loss of 2 life also worsens the tempo match-up, potentially going from even to slightly unfavorable.

---

Hello,

Thank you for the reply. However, I was not proposing to remove the Cabals for counters. Just to have them in addition. I would never go below 3 Cabals anyway.

What's going on here? The usual "ZOMG! There's a new green 6cc+ Creature printed! Must be playable for Elves!" crap?

I have no clue what permaments are so oppressive that you want a 3/3 or maybe 4/4 vanilla to handle them, DRS + GSZ (V.Shaman+DRS) + Abrupt Decay doesn't already handle better. Is Humility such a thing? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Is Humility such a thing? ;)

---

If only we could GSZ/NO for something to kill that, lol. Can't Wizards put something with "is unnaffected by static effects" stamped on it in the next Commander set? :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benjammn

I think Regal Force would be better at maintaining CA vs. sweepers than Bane.


Side Note: How many people are moving away from the white splash? Pridemage is the only thing holding me back right now...is it worth it?

---

I cut White out quite a while ago, probably before November. Of course the last white card was between Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver, and the only other card I ever gave a shot with white was Gaddock Teeg but he didn't last long. Since adopting Ruric mainboard, I just thought it be easier to run Virdian Shaman and negate the white splash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

What's going on here? The usual "ZOMG! There's a new green 6cc+ Creature printed! Must be playable for Elves!" crap?

I have no clue what permaments are so oppressive that you want a 3/3 or maybe 4/4 vanilla to handle them, DRS + GSZ (V.Shaman+DRS) + Abrupt Decay doesn't already handle better. Is Humility such a thing? ;)

---

Yes :\ the usual 'OMG its a new green creature we must use it', although I think the majority realize its likely bad. I remember being one of the advocates for Craterhoof (in my area and here online), but of course things don't catch on until results are shown. It may have helped if I found NO too haha. Anyway, until something does better than Craterhoof (or for those who run Regal, then better than Regal) at killing, its probably not worth it.

Bane of Progress against Omnitell? Do you realize that with Dream Halls or worse Omniscience on the field they can win instant-speed with Cunning Wish -> Release the Ants?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poron

Bane of Progress against Omnitell? Do you realize that with Dream Halls or worse Omniscience on the field they can win instant-speed with Cunning Wish -> Release the Ants?

---

When you Show the Bane (or the Sliver) onto the battlefield when they Show either Dream Halls or Omniscience, the ETB abilitie of the Bane will resolve after Show & Tell does, right before they get priority again. They simply aren't allowed to cast anything, even on instant speed, before the ETB abilitie has resolved - the ETB effect has to be resolved before priority returns to them. By the time they get priority back again, the Dream Halls/Omniscience will be in the graveyard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

When you Show the Bane (or the Sliver) onto the battlefield when they Show either Dream Halls or Omniscience, the ETB abilitie of the Bane will resolve after Show & Tell does, right before they get priority again. They simply aren't allowed to cast anything, even on instant speed, before the ETB abilitie has resolved - the ETB effect has to be resolved before priority returns to them. By the time they get priority back again, the Dream Halls/Omniscience will be in the graveyard.

---

Sorry man, but this is just plain wrong.

Right after S&T resolves, the triggered ability of Bane is put on the stack. Then the active player (your opponent) receives priority and gets to do whatever he likes; in this case either Cunning Wish for Trickbind or just kill you right out with Release the Ants. Even with Dream Halls he gets to kill you with Cunning Wish for Firemind's Foresight.

/edited the targeting part

Lol, we're down to explaining how the stack works? This thread just needs 2 lists posted with Priest/Archdruid + Emrakul and we could basically reopen the old Elves-Thread...

Oh my ... guys ... :/

Hmm, I'd swear I read it somewhere. Oh well. Can't find it a.t.m. so can't prove I did. My bad, I suppose.

So, yeah, against Omni-tell it isn't a sure shot thing. On the other hand, you don't see that deck all that much.

Also... Bane of Progress and targeting..? Not so much :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Also... Bane of Progress and targeting..? Not so much :smile:

---

Doesn't matter. It remains an EtB trigger going on the Stack and your opponent still having the Chance to respond to it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Doesn't matter. It remains an EtB trigger going on the Stack and your opponent still having the Chance to respond to it

---

That's correct

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benjammn

I think Regal Force would be better at maintaining CA vs. sweepers than Bane.


Side Note: How many people are moving away from the white splash? Pridemage is the only thing holding me back right now...is it worth it?

---

Most lists are hanging onto GBw by just the thinnest of threads at this point. Teeg and Pridemage/H.Sliver are the only cards I have seen that might keep you in White. I dropped White entirely a few months ago and haven't looked back. Dropping just the single Savannah from the maindeck for a fetchland has smoothed out my draws in a surprisingly significant way. For me, the decision was between increasing the fetchland count or keeping White. And I decided maintaining that maindeck consistency was more important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

It's fine, I enjoy the discussion it brings up and the effort you put into making your case :smile:. I don't mind being the silly guy bringing up odd cards or questions.

The point of having any discussion, especially for higly competitive decks like this, is to find that one little needle that'll improve the deck in the haystack that is called our cardpool/meta. You can expect to pick up a straw rather then the needle in 99 out of 100 attempts, but not making the effort to examine the thing you picked up will only hurt your needle-finding in the end.

---

Echelon, your ability to quickly type out long, articulate responses is stronger than the arguments contained within those responses. I feel like you may be the only one enjoying this discussion of fringe cards, especially when they start to go in circles. You might enjoy our "effort" but (and I can only speak for myself) I just find it tiring. For now let's just assume that the burden of proof is on you to put up results with a Bane list and perhaps write a report showing how Bane was effective for you. That will likely go further than any argument. I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion, but in this case I think everything has been said. I say this with all the foresty, pointy-eared love I can muster on this Friday morning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

If only we could GSZ/NO for something to kill that, lol. Can't Wizards put something with "is unnaffected by static effects" stamped on it in the next Commander set? :laugh:

---

That would arguably be better than TNN since it wouldn't die to golgari charm or any damage source ever..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shagstaman

That would arguably be better than TNN since it wouldn't die to golgari charm or any damage source ever..

---

It'd just be blue anyway...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Lol, we're down to explaining how the stack works? This thread just needs 2 lists posted with Priest/Archdruid + Emrakul and we could basically reopen the old Elves-Thread...

Oh my ... guys ... :/

---

Hey man, those were my formative years of slinging green men you are dissing, Sir! :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danyul

Most lists are hanging onto GBw by just the thinnest of threads at this point. Teeg and Pridemage/H.Sliver are the only cards I have seen that might keep you in White. I dropped White entirely a few months ago and haven't looked back. Dropping just the single Savannah from the maindeck for a fetchland has smoothed out my draws in a surprisingly significant way. For me, the decision was between increasing the fetchland count or keeping White. And I decided maintaining that maindeck consistency was more important.

---

May I ask what land base you are using now? If I drop the Savannah I'd add the 2nd Arbor I think, but I'm not sure... I do like that reasoning too though. Also, do advocate Ruric Thar at all?

RURIC THAR FOR THE WIIIIIIIIIIIIN!

(Sorry. Im still drunk.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benjammn

May I ask what land base you are using now? If I drop the Savannah I'd add the 2nd Arbor I think, but I'm not sure... I do like that reasoning too though. Also, do advocate Ruric Thar at all?

---

9 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

I am at 19 lands, 13 real. This is slightly greedy. I want to get to 20 but have not found the strength to make painful cuts. I almost want to just throw that 20th land in there and run 61.

Ruric Thar looks silly on paper, but in practice he is amazing. I remember when catmint first suggested it, he caught a lot of flak. But he was right and Ruric Thar has definitely earned his SB slot. Some people even run him in the main.