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24 Lands
2 Elsepth
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords
4 Fire/Ice
3 EE
1 Disk
2 Wrath
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Burning Wish
SB
1 Wrath
1 Pyroclasm
1 Decree
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Compulsive Research
1 Telemin Performance
1 Banefire
1 Firebolt
1 Terashi's Grasp
4 Pyroblast
2 (something)
Something like this could be nice. Too many cards MD but it was thrown together.
Looks like a good list to start with, though I would run Crucibles. Also, I think Morningtide deserves a spot on the wishboard. The 2 (something) could be Relic of Progenitus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Also, I think Firespout > Pyroclasm simply because it hits Zoo creatures.
@crz87
Firespout fails to kill a 3/4 or 4/5 Tarmogoyf, which is the reason why Sword effects are heavily preferred these days.
People can always bounce back after Firespout, Wrath, and whatnot. A Humility or Plague just shuts them down.
Black is also used for Vindicate and Planar Void. Red offers Red Elemental Blast, which does well against Merfolk, Countertop, and Solidarity. It would be the only reason I would touch red.
@Misplayer
My problem with red has always been that burn turns out to be ineffective against graveyard-based aggro decks. Whereas you can stop an Ichorid by EXILING (ew...) it with a Swords effect, Lightning Bolt just delays it for another turn. Also, other than REB and maybe Burning Wish, there's pretty much nothing red offers against combo decks.
@konsultant
I noticed it didn't have Brainstorm. But I did see Ancestral Vision and thought: must be one of those darned tempo machinations that I don't like playing.
Anyhow, the Dralnu deck that knocked me from my shot at semifinals in Regionals awhile back ran Mystic Teachings and Think Twice. But then again, I was mana screwed for games two and three. x( (I ran Mono Green Aggro, it was hilarious watching a $20 deck, minus the Birds of Paradise, sweep all those $80+ Gruul and Dralnu decks; Sheltering Ancient with Stonewood Invocation was cruel and unusual. xD)
@rockout
Is it me, or does building an engine out of an off-color seem funny? I mean, Burning Wish Landstill sounds more like a URw thing than a UWr thing. Anyhow, I don't like the idea of using one Sorcery to find another Sorcery. Maybe it's just my inner Draw-Go acting up, but to me, it means you tap on your turn, and unless you have the mana to use it then and there, you have to forfeit whatever element of surprise or expediency you had and tap on your next turn as well. So your Burning Wish for a Flamespout becomes a 5cc Sorcery-speed boardsweeper that eats up sideboard space; why not just use a Wrath of God in its place?
EDIT: You know, I just remembered that my friend was once raving about Swans of Bryn Argoll. What would you guys think? If you guys splash red, burning your own creature would work out well. xD
Another idea, I mentioned in MTGSalvation, mostly as a joke, is to run Karoo Meerkats to counter Merfolk. All you need to worry about then are Mishra's Factory or Mutavault and Lord of Atlantis. xD
Haven't you figured out yet it doesn't work?Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
As I said before, Firespout can be additional Wrath effects against bad matchups for Landstill (Tribal Aggro/Zoo). It's even better in non-Landstill decks that don't play Wrath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
REB is also good in the mirror, and blue makes up a good 50%+ of the format.
I think we're talking about different things here. In Landstill, you obviously keep :w: and add :r:, losing only Black (Extirpate, in grave based matchups). Landstill's combo protection comes from Blue and a hint of White, so the splash color is mostly irrelevant in that matchup.Quote:
@Misplayer
My problem with red has always been that burn turns out to be ineffective against graveyard-based aggro decks. Whereas you can stop an Ichorid by EXILING (ew...) it with a Swords effect, Lightning Bolt just delays it for another turn. Also, other than REB and maybe Burning Wish, there's pretty much nothing red offers against combo decks.
In CounterTop lists versus Ichorid, I think Bolt is WAY better because it gives you an easy way to remove Bridges. You can chump Ichorid with Goyf if you've bolted your Confidant to remove their Bridges. With white you can StP their Ichorid, and then they combo out on you with Dread Return.
Not to speak for rockout, but I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a Burning Wish list. You still need :w::w: far far more often than you'll need :r:. You'll need 2 Volcanic Island and maybe a Plateau to hit :r: on a semi-reliable basis, so it would still be UWr.Quote:
@rockout
Is it me, or does building an engine out of an off-color seem funny? I mean, Burning Wish Landstill sounds more like a URw thing than a UWr thing. Anyhow, I don't like the idea of using one Sorcery to find another Sorcery. Maybe it's just my inner Draw-Go acting up, but to me, it means you tap on your turn, and unless you have the mana to use it then and there, you have to forfeit whatever element of surprise or expediency you had and tap on your next turn as well. So your Burning Wish for a Flamespout becomes a 5cc Sorcery-speed boardsweeper that eats up sideboard space; why not just use a Wrath of God in its place?
You're also dismissing the versatility of a Wish effect. If you play Wrath instead of Burning Wish in the situation you presented, then sure, Wrath is more favorable. However, in the mirror, you can Burning Wish for Banefire or Telemin Performance and end the game, where if you had Wrath instead it would be largely dead.
I'm not saying that Burning Landstill is a good way to go because I haven't even thought of a list, let alone tested anything (I also suck at deckbuilding). Assuming you give up Cunning Wish (because 2 wish-boards is pretty unreasonable), you lose Pulse of the Fields and Extirpate, which are two gigantic tools to improve bad matchups.
Perhaps instead of Cunning Wish, you use Mystical Tutor and run 2x Pulse in the SB to be maindecked in Burning Wish builds? Seems clunky but red offers some things. I've been thinking about it. Red pretty much just gives REB/Firespout, improving the matchups we're already good at (except UWr Landstill possibly rapes Merfolks, which is a bad matchup for traditional UWb decks, EPlague comes into mind for UWb which still doesn't solve the problem).
Landstill's probably my favorite deck, and I've been contemplating dropping black for red (my meta is aggro infested right now). So I've been working on UWr Landstill. I've tried Burning Wish but I didn't like playing spells on my turn, so I stuck to Cunning Wish (post m10, Pulse is going to easily give you the win against aggro, with all the mass removal too). I've been tweaking a UWr Wishstill (cunning wish) build and here's what I came up with:
Braid of Fire is an interesting addition
Here's a sample list of cards that are good in landstill shell with Braid of Fire:
Decree of Justice cycling
Eternal Dragon
Sensei's Divining Top
Capsize
Pulse (WW is a problem for multiple recursion)
Paying mana for instants such as FoF, Cunning Wish into instant (possibly adding starstorm/Urza's Rage/Stroke of Genius in the SB)
Possibly Mobilization activations (always though of using Mobilization in Landstill since it fits nice in the 3cc slot and produces tokens to chump)
I might work on such a list, running 2 Braid of Fire. It's probably slow as hell, but when it's working, It gives a huge boost to the deck with wishing bombs such as starstorm (removal), Urza's Rage (finisher), Stroke of Genius (card draw), and cycling a bigger Decree.
Note that this new possible build would annihilate aggro and improve the control matchup due to increased speed and bigger threats i.e. Rage/Stroke/bigger Decree and REB in the board but makes the combo MU a lot worse. It's something to give up and something to take I guess. Maybe SBing 4 Negate and Chants or Canonist helps against this.
Here's a possible list:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Fire//Ice
2 Wrath of God
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Braid of Fire
2 Elspeth
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
SB:
3 Negate
1 Starstom
1 Urza's Rage
3 REB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Firespout
That list made me smile. I've been trying to work braids into a list post M10 but could quite decide on the correct number. With e tutor, it seems to smooth it out a little bit. Nicely done.
I just had the weirdest thought: If wizards made an icy manipulator that cost 3 colorless instead of 4, would we run that? I just love icy manipulator and want to run it but not as a 4 drop in place of a better 4 drop like disk/humility/wrath/other...
I love that this new Walker deck has made me want to play Landstill.
BTW, did that primer get written yet?
Its not really landstill. It's basically UWR Control. Fun nonetheless. And I haven't seen the primer yet.
Thanks rockout, I've been thinking about that list mainly because my meta just got Zoo-ed for 3 weeks in a row (Top 2 Zoo decks for 3 weeks). I dislike aggro, so I decided to go all out.
And post m10 did make Braids a much better card. I haven't tested the list so if anyone cared that would be great, but it seems that the list works fine even without Braids. I've designed it to be less clunky. Here were some thought processes when I designed the deck:
DESTROYING AGGRO:
4StP + 2 Wrath + 2 Firespout (SB) + 1 Wishable Pulse + 3EE would entirely shore that matchup. Red also gives REB to battle against Merfolks/Fish decks
Starstorm is iffy and I've added it mainly as a Wishable answer. In the Braids build, it's pretty devastating as you only need to invest in U (R and colorless are dependent on Braids upkeep costs)
Starstorm would give you an all out answer to aggro at instant speed (sorcery if you played it with braids), but at least it's a wishable slot.
I dislike burning wish even though it offers a lot more for the deck. Instants are so crucial to landstill and I've played UWb and loved and hated Vindicate. If they reprinted an instant Vindicate, hit me up, but sorcery is really a bummer.
So the aggro matchup is solved. REB takes care of merfolks, along with Firespout, and Goblins folds to Spout, StP as well. Goyf sligh is a little troublesome, but you can always put BEB if your meta is filled with Goyf sligh.
A problem that Landstill has is against Moon effects, UWr basically makes you less immune to waste, and still cast useful spells off moon effects. Old builds tend to need to hit 2 basics, and use R from Moon to EE away Blood Moon/Magus. Now, you can just burn Magus and EE Blood Moon, giving more speed and options.
INCREASED SPEED:
I love landstill, but I hate time limits. I love long games of inevitabilityness-whatever-it's-called. However, my experience with playing against Deadguy was horrible. It's a winnable matchup but it's REALLY slow. Vindicate kills all your win-cons (elspeth) and Extirpate/StP screws man-lands until you're forced to deck him out with EE/Recursion and never winning 2 out of 3 games.
I think the red builds are faster, with Fire//Ice for early pin-point removal, and playing more tempo-based. I've still yet to make a UWr tempo-still that I'm working on (not spoiling the list until I have results).
Now with Braids, you can have greater speeds in the mid-game, e.g. bigger decrees, Braid ensures manadrops from E.Dragon so crucible is out (it's still a good card, and maybe 1 of in the SB). Braids also allows you to refill your hand with Stroke, and getting a lethal Urza's Rage. Hell, you can even kill Dreadnought now with a factory and Rage :P
Fire//Ice is an iffy slot, but fits really nice in the curve and gameplan. Keep Spell Snare mana out and if they don't play a spell, Fire off bob or other dudes.
BETTER MU AGAINST CONTROL:
REB says it all, not to mention our insane card-draw and late-game advantage. The only problems you'll face now is the mirror (Thresh is much easier now with REB). In the mirror, refer to INCREASED SPEED arguements for winning that matchup. Also, REB would help a lot. UWr Wishstill allows you to win the Merfolks MU with Firespout/REB/Fire//Ice.
COMBO MATCHUP:
Sucks as hell now without Wishing into Extirpate on their EOT Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam. That's brutal, but to be honest, my experience with combo is that you need to disrupt fast or lose. Wishing into Extirpate is only a nail in the coffin when you're already in control and the tough part is getting the control. I think this version is a lot weaker to combo (my meta only has 1 combo player) so 3-4 Negates is really good in the SB. REB also stops their cantrip and Mystical Tutors.
So there's it. My thoughts and conjuration on UWr Braidwish-still. Braid might be clunky, but Landstill is all about lategame, and Braids just sits there doing nothing, or makes you faster when you hit the key cards. You can imagine topdecking a FoF with Braids out, and going off with a huge hand on that turn when you cast FoF with just one blue mana, and playing off instant or playing stuff during your turn.
THOUGHTS AND IMPROVEMENT:
I really want 3 SDT since it has good synergy with Braids, and I'm not sure if 2 Braids is the right amount since multiple braids seem like overkill. It's really amazing with Decrees though lol. Thoughts and comments are welcomed and if this deserves a thread for more discussions as a new deck, I can post a primer in N&D, but in all honesty, it looks like a competitive list, so it can stay here in UW(x) Landstill. Maybe it's worth shifting from black to red.
It's funny because I keep arguing myself with Extirpate + EPlague + Vindicate v.s Firespout + REB + options above and I think there's really no better version, except meta-dependent. Landstill is highly flexible deck which is why I'm sharing this list for you people who enjoy this playstyle more, and a list that improves the aggro/merfolks/control MU and suffers against a combo/dredge MU.
Wow, and I just realized that Braids also pays for SDT/Dragon/EE/Academy Ruins activations and instant spells. EE+Ruin activating and recursion for 3 colorless off Braids is really cool, but that's assuming if you activate EE in the upkeep and drawing it again with Ruins.
braid of fire + Masticore ?
I was trying to build a braid of fire deck and that, together with FoF, TfK, Starstorm and Ghitu Fire were the main things I dumped braid mana into. The amount of damage you can do gets pretty retarded over time.
AWWWWWWWWWWW
Braids only puts mana into your pool during your upkeep. That makes is such a failure.
and it emptys in your upkeep not at the end of your draw step. ..... Failboat :).Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I'm still going to give it a shot, maybe running 1 Braid. The synergy with instants + Activations in Landstill seems pretty good. It's a crappy late-game topdeck, but I've designed my deck to draw a lot more
ITs cute but inconsistent. Theres a game on MAgic-league where you get a number and a color and you name a card and play it like you would a normal magic game. With that said mana floats and entire turn so braids was a hidden jem. I was doing retarded shit when we played name any card with no color restrictions like time stretching. The reason I say retarded is because the number you roll everytime is based off a six sided die. Thus any mana you produce during the turn allows you to basicly boost what you can cast. Ex. If you roll a 2 but you have 10 red mana in your pool you can cast time stretch, but without additional mana the most you can get is 6cc.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
The game is fun as it completely wipes out things like lands and draw spells. Also the blue pay 1 sac cards out of MM are busted as they basicly read vindicate unless you have llanawar elves in play.
Do you play Decree of Justice? If you have Decree and Elspeth (or Ajani Goldmane out of the sideboard), you shouldn't be worried about running out of win-conditions. I use to run just 3 Decrees and Factories as my kill condition, and I was never afraid of Extirpate on Decree, since against a deck like deadguy it's one of the cards you want to shuffle away with Brainstorm in the early game and then blow them out with it in the late game. Even if they Extirpate Decree after cycling, they still have to answer the million guys attacking them.Quote:
I love landstill, but I hate time limits. I love long games of inevitabilityness-whatever-it's-called. However, my experience with playing against Deadguy was horrible. It's a winnable matchup but it's REALLY slow. Vindicate kills all your win-cons (elspeth) and Extirpate/StP screws man-lands until you're forced to deck him out with EE/Recursion and never winning 2 out of 3 games.
I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid on the red splash for several reasons:Quote:
BETTER MU AGAINST CONTROL:
REB says it all, not to mention our insane card-draw and late-game advantage. The only problems you'll face now is the mirror (Thresh is much easier now with REB). In the mirror, refer to INCREASED SPEED arguements for winning that matchup. Also, REB would help a lot. UWr Wishstill allows you to win the Merfolks MU with Firespout/REB/Fire//Ice.
- Isn't being able to kill all threats with Vindicate or Path to Exile in addition to Swords just better than Fire/Ice? It doesn't kill Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Wild Nacatl on the draw, Countryside Crusher, Terravore, etc.
- Why play Firespout in a splash color when we already have access to WoG, which costs only one more mana and doesn't require use to fetch an off-color dual? Also, it kills everything on the board, not just x/3's and lower. And if we are scared of merfolk, using Engineered Plague out of the sideboard and playing more lands and Dragons help tremendously. Even straight UW landstill seems better than the R splash against merfolk because it already has options available to fight merfolk, and has a better manabase than the 3c verions.
- Isn't REB replaceable by Duress or Thoughtseize? Being able to look at their hand in a blue mirror and plan your game accordingly is amazing in blue mirrors, and it's better against combo.
I think the Red splash is worth testing for Burning Wish and REB. REB is strictly better than discard strategies in the control mirror. Decks like Eva Green win off the tempo generated by removing your best spells and then smashing you with a threat you can no longer answer. Landstill can remove your best spell and then...build up a manabase while you draw into your extra copies. Also, the prevalence of SDT in the meta means it's easy for your opponent to float bombs on top (Counterbalance/FoF/FoW/etc.), wait until you whiff with your discard, then draw into what they were protecting. Think about counter battles, REB on FoW is straight up back-breaking: 2-for-1 for only :r:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Lastly, Engineered Plague is often not enough versus Merfolk. You need cheap answers in large quantities (StP, PtE, Spell Snare, REB) to survive long enough to establish favorable board position through bombs like EE and Wrath.
Here's what I'm thinking, it's pretty untested. Comments and criticism welcome, as always.
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
2 Burning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Decree of Justice
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Island
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Propaganda
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Banefire
1 Telemin Performance
@Shawn. REB is the reason why Tempo Thresh and non-blue decks have a huge edge post SB against blue decks. Misplayer has put it well. Not to mention, REB is also good against Imperial/Epic Painter (which is in my meta).
NLU lists and current Dreadstill lists are all running Firespout, which has been the MVP splash. I used to be one of the sceptics of red splashes in control decks since I've always thought that white gives you path, black gives you discard and creature removal, but red only gives you bolt.
UGr Dreadstill is increasingly popular now and it adopts Probasco's NLU approach. I think Pyroclasm/Firespout in the board really helps against the current aggro decks of the format. EPlague used to be good, but any deck has an answer to it (Grips/bounce). I've in fact cut Humility off my list despite loving the card to death since it was forcing me to play with the feeling of false safety. I like Wrath better in this aspect because it forces me to make a decision, rather than relying on a card for comfort. Humility really sucks when gripped.
So cooking up the NLU and red splashes of Dreadstill, you see a general line on decks packing Fire//Ice and Firespout. Fire//Ice maybe weak in this deck and like what Thrawn mentioned, may not be enough to remove Goyfs/vore/crushers, but note that aside from that, it kills a lot of targets in Legacy: Bob, Meddling Mage, Grim Lavamancer, hate-bears, Teeg (which is a bitch to play against). Vindicate removes everything but I find that the newer lists are a little clogged in the 3cc/4cc slots. Landstill actually has very little 2cc drop, which makes it great against opposing Snares, but it is also one reason why Speedstill lists are successful because the manacurve is more in tune and not too cluttered in the 3cc/4cc builds.
Fire//Ice is good, but is probably the weakest card, but I find that 3 Fire//Ice, 4 StP, 3 EE to be plenty of removal even against bigger creatures. You'll save StP/EE against Vores/Goyfs/crushers, and Fire//Ice against Bobs and smaller Goyfs. In the late game, tapping out with Ice can mean a game or two as you beat in. This is hypothetical and isn't a traditional landstill list, but I think it can be tweaked. Maybe 3 Counterspell is better in the Fire//Ice slot, but I find that I needed more instant speed removal that's flexible. Fire//Ice also pitches to FOW.
Also, Shawn, the red builds make the deck a whole lot better against Moon effect. Landstill can survive under moon with EE, but it becomes heavily reliant on it. Fire//Ice gives you out against Magus without StP/EE, and also Firespout after boarding them in (matchups with Magus and Firespout shines is Imperial Painter since it hits the 1/3 toughness of Painter and kills magus). Therefore there's one less matchup to worry about and that's moon.dec (Landstill does fine against moon, but this makes it much better than UWb for example, which causes many cards to be dead).
@Misplayer: I seriously think Burning Wish isn't worth it. I've mentioned this earlier although without too much testing. But Landstill wants to play instants, unless you're doing a different playstyle (like Ultimate Walker). Regardless, in the end Landstill is highly customizable and to its player's comfort and the meta out there. I'm just writing a UWr list to shore up the aggro matches and control matches, and try my best against combo. The Braids list I made up is faster, and I'm thinking of dropping to 1 Braids. It's a win-more card anyway. SB is always flexible and the card that goes off easiest is probably Urza's Rage. I think Stroke and Starstorm are pretty invaluable wish targets depending on the meta, and in Braids builds, it's more utilized. I've been thinking of adding 1 Stroke in the SB for a long time anyway. My games drag on for 10-15+ turns, and I have 10lands out by then. Stroke would have been great. I'm thinking of upping Cunning Wish to 3 in the MD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Staff Of Domination or Scepter of Dominance
Also I don't see a reason why adding red means you have to include burning wish? The Red enables bombs like REB/Fire'n'ice/Ajani Vengeant.
Their is also always the option of UWbr like the landstill deck that made top 8 at the boston 5k
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29172
This is out of topic with regards to landstill, but to poster above. If the game drags on long enough, Staff of Domination and Braid of Fire is stupid :D:D:D:D