What would you recommend replacing Drop and Crypt with? Revokers?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
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What would you recommend replacing Drop and Crypt with? Revokers?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
Revokers are not bad. I also still experiment with Mirage Mirror but have no results (neither + nor - ) so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorQuantum
The best tip from my side: Ask at least someone else ;-)
To my knowledge it's pretty much solely being pioneered by one of the more well-known Lands players from Japan (yekcat on MTGO). He's testing it out because it's particularly strong against midrange decks. It provides cover for the Marit Lage token against Diabolic Edict and a reasonable clock if the token gets Swords to Plowshared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Epeirogeny
I would sooner run Wail for Edict protection. No clock, but other useful modes an requires no splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
The other local Lands was running a Crypt in the board for a while. It's very good with Academy Ruins (and T.West, if you run it). It also has the benefit of firing at instant speed without needing Crop Rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
If your meta is heavy on graveyard decks, it might be an okay meta call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Warping wail? That will only counter sorcery spells so diabolical edict will still get through correct?
Use the secret mode on Warping Wail.
Wail can make a token. Feed the token to the Edict, Marit Lage lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascension1223
Clever girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
Yea, I noticed it is coming from Japan. I always like to keep an eye on that meta cause it is always different. But there is no game play footage or commentary I can find on the card choice. Not only that, it is a black/white card and out of colors normally seen for lands.
I get the argument for edict effects. But similar to what someone else said about Swords to Plowshares. It is annoying, but does not break us. We can just recur the Depths and Stage back to our hand, particularly in game 1 before graveyard hate. I do not think he would use 4 whole sideboard slots (3 souls and the tri-land) just because of edict effects. Plus, Diabolic Edict is an instant so it would require us to be proactive making the spirit tokens before Marit Lage is out.
At three mana, which is on the same curve as tracker, I do not see it better than Tireless Tracker against the slow U/W control miracle decks reappearing. If I am missing something, please let me know.
It can't go wider than Grixis Delver, which is a fantastic match up anyway, so he would not use 4 slots for Delver.
Its obviously not there for any combo matchup.
So what is it coming in against? Or is Diabolic Edict really that bad against us? So far, I have not had anyone cast Edict against me, but have been Pathed and Sworded many times and it is not a big deal to dedicate sideboard slots to.
PS: is there a hexproof/shroud creature that needs to be chump blocked that Maze of Ith cannot handle?
Nothing as bad as a TNN or a Progenitus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Epeirogeny
So last night porphyry nodes spiked, Im assuming cause its a cheaper alternative to drop. Maybe not the greatest alternative but one nonetheless. Has anyone seen/heard of lists running it? I know its been tossed around but is it heading that route for budget reasons?
Lingering souls is legit. I've won more games from it than I did with Tracker.
Could be, but i've never seen a list that run one-two in te sb. Probably because you'll have to re-tune your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by skrowtobaggins
I was thinking about a white splash list last night. There are a decent amount of "incidental" white sources, such as Karakas and Horizon Canopy. There is also a fetchable GW cycler in Scattered Groves. And of course, play a Savannah.Quote:
Originally Posted by skrowtobaggins
For sideboard I also added Containment Priest because we are already in white and it helps with our worst match ups. Experimental SB-
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes
RubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What he means is, some 'accidental' white sources, and a Savannah isn't enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lichking616
The mana can be made to work for a white splash. Seeing as though I didn't even propose a manabase for the deck it would be hard for that to have been his message. What is the minimum number of white sources needed to reliably have it by turn 2 (earliest)? This isn't like the black splash where the deck is trying to lead on thoughtseize vs combo, etc.
I'd say that a single savannah along w/ moxes and canopy is fine for a light white splash. I'm unsure w/ porphryr nodes, but I've tried the white splash on occassion with ~8 white hatebears postboard and it was fine because the decks you board in the white stuff don't typically attack your mana directly. Moon still hits quite hard, but the higher likelihood of getting a beater down early usually mitigated moon's effect more than usual.
The white for porphryr nodes is different because you are actually boarding it in vs decks that are attacking your mana, which probably makes it strictly inferior to drop of honey in most applications (cost aside). Still, I'd be interested to hear what your testing results are.
Yea, not sure why my my idea was met with so much vitriol. I agree that it is no ideal to board nodes in against a deck that may wasteland you- but you only need to tap it for white one time (if it resolves and you get wastelanded afterwards, you probably don't care. If it gets countered and you get wastelanded afterwards, you still probably don't care). This could create some awkward situations (hence nodes being the "budget" solution to Drop), but thats why I wouldn't splash white just for porphyry nodes. The % points you lose by having node be tougher to cast could be outweighed by the % points you get against reanimator / sneak etc. Just throwing it out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Just to be clear: I'm not attacking you. I only stated that IMHO you have to rework the manabase quiet a bit. I get that you don't want to splash W only for Nodes, and obviously white harebears are the first that come to mind. Personally, I'm more of a pure RG-player. I never liked the black splash, or any other splash fwiw. I would say bite the bullit, don't go budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Oh, I know you weren't. Your post was constructive - not just a 1 word insult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I have Drops :) I just get bored of playing the same flavor of Lands all the time. Right now I'm playing the blue splash mostly but both black and white splashes are of interest to me.
I damn myself to not buy drop before the last GP when it was 90 €. Now i dont know if its rly worth buy 1-2 of them. I played a lot in this period and i can handle TMM/Leo without(ofc is more tricky)
Aah ok :-) I read somewhere about Lingering Souls as well, any thoughts about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I mean, I'm not a Lands expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think the deck can only support a tertiary color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
If you want edict protection play Dryad arbor / warping wail / mishra's factory.
If you want to apply pressure outside of making a 20/20 then I would play four trackers first.
If I was in white I would play cards like Nodes / hatebears / solemnity etc. If I was in black I would play hand disruption / sweepers. It is my opinion that the lingering souls version is adding two colors to the deck but not the best cards in either color. Oh, and huge nonbo with Thorn of Amethyst too.
The Japanese seem to think otherwise :smile:
Oh I know, and I actually personally know the guy in Japan whose been pioneering that. But there is always the question is he winning because of that, or in spite of that?
That's a spicy SB with Murmuring Bosk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I don’t like it myself. For pressure I vastly prefer Tracker, and if I'm worried about Edict I like Warping Wail.
I get LS is both pressure and Edict protection, and that it plays from the yard. And card advantage. But Tracker is better card advantage, Wail is good against combo, and neither require off-colour mana.
I think Lingering Souls is fine, but I prefer other options myself.
The consensus of a minimum of sources required to reliably play a T1 spell is 13/14 (there's an old article from Karsten Cotter on this). I don't think there's much difference between thoughtseize and CPriest, it's a T1 play versus a T2 play as you wanna be able to play both asap. David Long had 12 black sources in his blacksplash (8 lands, 4 mox), so similarly I wouldn't go below 12 white sources for a whitesplash. He did drop the Groves to enable such a manabase, so maybe you have to swap the Pfires for Vortexes too.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
But personally I feel like a blacksplash is better than white. Thoughtseize hits anything, where CPriest is quite narrow. And Toxic Deluge is amazing in dealing with the same creatures (like TNN or Leovold) you'd play nodes for.
White = 1 savannah, 1 GW fetch cycler, 4 fetch, 4 mox, canopy, karakas is 12 right there (only 1 CITP), without really messing with the mana at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Just to note- I always viewed that black splash list to be swapping p fires for decays, not vortexes, since even straight RG lands play 1+ vortex commonly. P fire does seem to be in a good place right now though so maybe a black splash list exists with the nice SB cards only (no decays main)
I like my rg build and I won't change it but if I have to splash I will probably go white (even above blue and black) because you'll gain powerful cards vs our worst mu's like canonist and priest. I won't play nodes anyway but with the white splash lingering souls are a solid option
A BG fetch cycler would be a nice thing... lets hope it gets printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
Containment is great vs show and tell and sneak attack decks, it's also good vs aether vial and vs slower reanimator decks. Against br reanimator is not great as it is vs the ub version but can keep them under control in combination with a maze of ith, obviously if your best out is cropping for bog and then recurring it until they scoop or die to marit ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
This is no different from RG lands with crop rotation and spheres. A white splash has the regular crop rotation or lock piece turn 1 plays, plus potential hatebears if mox diamonds are involved on turn 1 or turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
I actually think its better against BR because you dont have to worry about running it into force of will / daze. And maybe they boarded out their CBs... either way, as you pointed out its great vs all our bad matchups (Sneak + reanimator)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
Except that spheres/thorns fit the larger theme of manadenial along with wasteland and Port/Quarter, being part of a larger plan makes them much stronger than individual cards. Chances are that cutting cards for Priest, will in turn make the Storm matchup and any other non-fattie-combomatchup considerably worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I also had a comparison with Thoughtseize in mind, not Spheres. Thoughtseize is a T1 card, and it diversifies hate between permanents (spheres) and sorceries, making it harder to board against. And its useful against any problematic strategy.
Ofcourse Im biased as I like discard, but I make the comparison because both the W-splash and B-splash (instead of plain RG) require similar tweaked manabases, and discard feels like it gives you more for your sacrifices.
^ what Ingo said. Also, I don't know why you think that Reanimator is a bad MU. I have had pretty good tournament results against it so far. Sneak Show is rough, I agree. But it's not like it's unwinnable. And OmniShow is easier because our sideboard cards are more effective there.
After the top-ban, when intuition was cut and more combodecks came up, I was thinking about a white splash (either with or without my blue splash). I cut the idea. It felt more like Lands-and-Taxes instead of Lands.
Now, I must have a very good reason splashing white or black and a SB card is NOT a reason splashing both (for me).
But I'd like to find such a very good reason. I would even include Volrath's Stronghold for the perfect creature...
You know whats better than wastelands / ports + thorns / spheres? All those cards PLUS hatebears. But the point is white doesn't require an entire overhaul of the manabase like the black splash does. You only need to change 2-3 cards whereas black has to drop punishing fire entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Depends on the reanimator variant. Against a smart UB reanimator player I think we are heavy underdogs. I have won more than I've lost versus the BR variant. And the primary motivation IS sneak & show, but able to be boarded in against reanimator feels good too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
I assumed you replaced spheres by hatebears. So if you play the hatebears along the spheres/thorns, how many combohate do you play in the side? And what cards did you cut?Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Black has Bog, Cabal Pit (instead of Bring) and Urborg (instead of Tomb) as it's incidental oncolor sources (along with dual/4fetch/4mox), so you can play blacksplash Pfires just as easy. Im just not sure 12 sources is enough. But now that top's gone, there's no need for maindeck decay's either, Im gonna try such a configuration next time I play.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes
Was a quick & dirty thing I came up with. Could squeeze 2 more hatebears in place of the Crucible and Nodes, etc. Or maybe the two hatebears of choice would be Thalia + Revoker because all 4 can be brought in vs all combo, etc.