@fox are u still on the same list ? (Page one) I will start to test your version vs ur Delver, sneak and show
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@fox are u still on the same list ? (Page one) I will start to test your version vs ur Delver, sneak and show
Yep, same list. Keep Brazen Borrower in mind when playing Standstill (vs. UR Delver) and cut the Snare vs SnT.
D&T seems an awful matchup. They have four Wasteland and four Rishadan Port for our Factories, a load of must counter grindy cards like Aether Vial (nullifies Standstill) and Stoneforge Mystic (gets equipment that is great against Delver and Manifested cards), and eight ways to deal with Dreadnought (Plow and Flickerwisp). Not to mention maindeck Revoker on Scroll of Fate. What's the strategy? Is it to resolve an early Nought and just hope to ride it to the win by countering Plow and Wisp? Or are we trying to go long with Scroll of Fate?
DnT isn’t so bad, and SBing begins with -3 or -4 Standstill. I lean towards cutting Daze down to ~2x copies (you’re trying to win with TNN and Scroll). Looking at Rood’s list on first page, TNNs come in, Abrade comes in, EE in, and a Dismember in. Pierce is not amazing vs DnT, but SB lacks more than the second copy of Dismember to replace them with.
In terms of beating DnT, you can either abuse TNN or construct differently with maindeck Grim Lavamancers, SB 2x Sulfur Elemental (or 1/1 split with Staticaster), 2x Abrade, Torpor Orb.
In my limited experience against D&T, the most impactful cards were Grim Lavamancer and Torpor Orb. Torpor Orb t2 on the play is back-breaking. Quick Dreadnought can usually get there, t2-3 usually means you can race. I don't recommend going long, it just gives them time to spam tons of little dudes onto the battlefield. Pyroclasm is another decent card against them. Spell Snare is surprisingly good against their deck if you can keep them off an early Aether Vial.
Took Rood’s list with some sideboard changes to local Win A Dual. 3-2 10th place. Manifested a couple of Noughts. Manifesting cards with Scroll of Fate is surprisingly good, won me two games. One was Chalice on 1, which meant I was just manifesting all my Brainstorms and Stifles and beating down! Had fun.
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Only had 7 decks in the room but everyone agreed to 4 rounds, so some strange pairings in the last round. RUG Delver (Hootie and the ProFish), UR Landstill (~Dreadstill w/o Nought), StryfoPile, Goblins, Eldrazi Aggro, Jund, and manifest destiny.
Round 1 vs Hootie and the ProFish (2-1): game 1 opponent keeps a 1-lander (Fetch), but wins the die roll and so I don't auto-win off the Stifle and FoW in my hand. Game 2 I am able to get my mana establised and end up winning with a Nought off Scroll. Game 3 my mana is okay and opponent ends up running into a few Teferi to bounce his Delver (only threat), which ends up also eating 2x Bolt from his hand. A followup JVP duresses another Bolt, and after exhanges like these opponent has too little in hand to prevent Scroll from coming down. Scroll goes on to gobble up a pair of Stifles before deploying a Nought, which ends the game. In all 3 games opponent was the only one able to aggressively use Stifle and Wasteland, but my defensive Stifles were enough to duress blue cards from hand (they don't really have a choice b/c if I get lands, all their soft permission become dead cards).
Round 2 vs UR Landstill (2-0): game 1 I'm able to get to a mid-game where I resolve a Dreadnought on 11 life vs a Delver and win the race. Game 2 the opponent is a little stuck on lands and ends up staring down a Karn which wished up the Cursed Scroll machine gun and a Crucible before dying to 2x SCM (so gained 4 life as well). With the Factory/Wasteland dominance of Crucible and control of the Scroll, I end up getting there. This isn't a great matchup, but it's aided by being the reactive party in a Factory mirror (they have to expose Factory and try to get damage in early).
Round 3 vs Jund (2-0): game 1 they're spamming discard into Hymn, and are hitting my payoff cards, but their followup of Confidant -> BBE flip Goyf ends up dying to a Verdict and they can't recover. Game 2 they have the same discard-heavy opening but stumble on lands. I'm able to resolve Ashiok and [-1] which mills over 3 lands and a BBE, and they are forced to Decay (-1 turn due to lost card and tap out). The next turn I cast Crucible (boarded in) and my Factories bleed them out of resources for no gain; I think I recurred 4 Factory before Crucible duressed their next Decay.
Round 4 vs Goblins (2-0): game 1 I hit a Fetch with Stifle and that tempo leads to creating a window for a Dreadnought to get a hit in and then get protected from Cratermaker (Stifle). Game 2 I'm able to bounce their Vial with a Teferi and counter it on the back end; this leads to a grindy game where Scroll is able to stall them out with 2/2s after a brief period of racing (their 3/3 Chainwhirler vs my 2x2/2s swinging back). I topdeck Porphyry Nodes, which is picking off their 1/1 and 2/2 army, and have 2x Stifle for their 2x Ringleader triggers, and the 1-sided abyss [Nodes always chooses their 2/2s before mine] is able to end the game by default.
It was a big day for JVP surprisingly. It's been a couple years since I've gone [-3] on FoW in yard to enable alt-cast, followed by making a Nought. Also had a number of interesting spots where I'd put a Brainstorm on the stack and hold priority for Cursed Scroll activation (temporarily putting hand size to 1).
Underworld Breach has been banned, but Oko remains. Looks like we're living in an Oko world for a while yet.
On the dev side of things, not too much going on except for planning to take an UG list out this upcoming week. Will let you guys know how it goes!
@crispymelee what's the decklist you're gonna run?
Ran Rood's list through another league, going 3-2.
R1 v Mono Black win 2-1. G1 I fight through a Liliana with a Bolt after losing my Delver to its sacrifice ability, and then draw Scroll to manifest a Nought which gets there in one turn thanks to some Mishra's Factory beats earlier in the game. G2 he has T1 Unmask into Bob, which gets him all the cards he needs to frustrate my attempts to get a board, and I die to Bob and Regisaur. G3 he again has a T1 Bob, but I manage to get a Nought down with Stifle that, amazingly, doesn't die to anything, and I follow up with a Standstill the next turn. He flips Liliana's Triumph and casts it, but my Standstill draws me a Daze and I can Daze because his Chrome Mox is shut off by the Null Rod he boarded in for Scroll. Dreadnought wins the race easily from there.
R2 v Mon G Cloudpost win 2-0. Both games I have early StifleNought. In G2 he casts Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm but he's already on 4 life so he can't keep it going for long enough to draw into anything relevant.
R3 v Burn w 2-1. G1 I have a T2 StifleNought and race him successfully. G2 I have a T3 Scroll into Nought but on the draw it's not quick enough and he burns me out with Exquisite Firecraft, which I can't counter. G3 I keep a hand with no threats but double Stifle, FoW, Spell Pierce, Standstill, and two Islands. His first land is a fetch,which I stifle, and he proceeds to draw and discard for four turns while I draw lands and build up my mana. His second land is also a fetch, which also meets Stifle, followed by another four or so turns of draw discard. He finally draws a Mountain but I FoW his Goblin Guide and draw Phyrexian Dreadnought which I cast with my third Stifle, and which is good enough to race again.
R4 v Rg Painter. L 1-2. Mulligan to 5 first two games. Punted G2 by missing an attack with Factory which would have given me 1 turn lethal with Delver and TNN, but fortunately he tapped Ancient Tomb and gave me lethal anyway. G3 my Delver wouldn't flip so no pressure and he used Bomat Courier to cycle through his deck and drew the combo and I had no way to stop it.
R5 v Doomsday. L 1-2. Decent pressure G1 got me there, but G2 my FoW on his Doomsday got Veil'd and G3 I had lethal damage if he had a pass the turn Doomday pile (Nought off Scroll after his Doomsday took him to 9 life) but he had a pile that could win the same turn.
I think I might have sideboarded wrong for Painter. Do you leave Spell Pierce in or take it out?
@pandaman when it comes to Painter, it's going to depend on what you're trying to counter. Keeping in Pierce is going to keep Karn off the table, but it's not always going to be the best vs their REBs. The proactive Pierce can be dead rather quickly, and the reactive Pierce isn't really going to go live until they've already committed 3 mana to Grindstone. Even against SSG I like Daze more since it might hit a Welder or Magus, and will blank REBs turned on your lands. Since Karn is your best Pierce target (can't be recurred by Welder), you should have more than enough time to get a few draw steps into the game. Since you're probably not caring about the noncreature spells of the first three turns, I think it's fine to cut down to ~2x.
---
Looks like CalebDMTG did a UG Dreadnought league (recorded on twitch, 2 day old video, from time of my post); the list was highly questionable. Pretty much unable to operate below 3 mana, still played Daze, and with all the structural problems it played 4 Ponder, 1 Preordain, and 4x Astro to....draw into the construction flaws quicker. It also built rather heavily into loss to yard hate. It's a pretty good example of how not to build the deck. I didn't watch the league, but I imagine it's going to highlight timing issues and lack of synergy quite well with this style of build.
Pretty much card for card what you had posted before. Differences are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
-1 Noxious
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Wasteland
+2 Astrolabe
+1 Academy Ruins
SB:
1x CoW
1x Cursed Scroll
1x EE
1x Liquimetal
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Tormod's
1x RiP
1x Karakas
3x Display of Dominance
2x Force of Vigor
2x Spell Pierce
///
Surgical
E.Tutor
Leyline/Void
Dreadnought
Tested the list in a Bant form (wack manabase, dropping Coatls for StP, Mirri's Guile in over Library bc I didn't have one at the time, some other minor tweaks I can't recall), and there just wasn't much to gain for such a varied manabase. Karakas out of the side and the Astrolabes just made more sense. The one time StP would have been relevant (vs Depths), never saw one after a few turns with Guile up and a Brainstorm + fetches . C'est la vie. The Ruins in place of Wasteland #4 was mostly just bc I lack a 4th Waste, but it was nice to have the option to recur artifacts. With Lotus Field in the list, the Astrolabes felt important since without them, we can't flip a Manifested Uro with Field on its own; felt bad to lose out on 1 mana trying to flip him with no Astrolabes (UUU or GGG + the missing color with no Astrolabe).
SB, I'd love to have more gy-hate. At the moment, it's a generic Karn-board with green options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/566748583?t=02h20m33s - start of the DreadUro construction and discussion. 1st match at 2h45 The list it looked like he ended up taking:
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Snow Island
1x Snow Forest
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Bauble
3x Scroll of Fate
3x Torpor Orb
4x Astrolabe
3x Dreadnought
3x Uro
3x Emry
3x Daze
4x FoW
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
The goal is the either get down a DN or postboard use delvers and 4 TNN to punish. True name is very decent against them they have 1 or 2 councils judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
So you're saying sideboard Dreadnought out for G2 and 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
If you hate them so much. Play the black version for plague engineerQuote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
Bending over backwards to beat DnT isn‘t a broadly viable strategy in legacy. There‘s no need to play non-engine answers to DnT, given how one-dimensional Cavern/Vial makes a deck. If you really want to get DnT, you have maindeck Grim Lavamancers and SB Torpor Orb. If you want to take out Mentor at the same time, you add SB Sulfur Elementals.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Plague Engineer takes you into UB, which begins to lack a plan for winning outside of 2x Dreadnought hits. You can look at UB Shadow and see this idea of using Plague Engineer [vs DnT] not really pan out, because the plan behind it still doesn‘t line up that well. You also are now in colors that just kinda lose to Oko, and Plague on Elk isn‘t exactly a great place to be. The inability to contest artifacts in UB is also problematic, so the DnT matchup isn‘t really improving.
@pandaman is using UR Nought with Standstill; there is no [competitive] black version. Black is a color that lets you play off-the-table to maximize board wipes, so it‘s highly unlikely that UB Dreadstill can outperform UB Standstill (since the Dreadnought version kinda has to play into its own wraths...and you don‘t really get to play wraths if you‘re picking up lands with Daze). You can play Delver/Confidant + no Standstill as UB Nought, but it‘s not as winning as UR or UW Dreadstill (and these are more-winning presentations than non-Dreadnought Standstill in those colors). Also a UB tempo version would have a really hard time getting to 20dmg through something as simple as Surgical target Dreadnought.
Against DnT (or any deck abusing Vials), you're probably going to want to look at boarding out some number of Standstills first. They just abuse it better than us.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
G2, FoW (and FoN if you run it) and Daze can stay in if you're on the play; on the draw, you'll likely cut the Dazes for some secondary counter (Pierce, Mystical Dispute, Spell Snare) and keep in your Forces to stop the T1 Vial. I like to keep in the Dreads if only because theyre a magnet for removal and help clear the way for Delvers and TNN. EE if you have them in the board is a nice option for Moms, Givers, and Vials. Rood's right in that we just have to get in a threat early, and try to protect and ride it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
A few observations I have made trying UB Dreadnought:
1) I liked Dark Confidant over Standstill, which is much better against D&T and provides another threat/blocker.
2) Brazen Borrower is a fantastic card against D&T and most matchups in general. I like them maindeck as disruption, outs to Marit Lage, and pure tempo by bouncing something and then being a 3/1 flyer.
3) Oko is tough, but there are some interactions that UR and UW don't have access to: Thoughtseize, Toxic Deluge, and Shadow + Stubborn Denial. You are weak to Oko if you don't plan for it, but the rest of their deck (meaning Miracles, 4C Piles) aren't unmanageable.
4) I highly recommend playing Force of Negation in the maindeck, probably x2, in any version of Dreadstill. It's additional interaction t0 for Vials and lets you get your Force count up for Oko.
5) You can combo finish with Rite of Consumption (which I am testing ATM now that I have gone bust on Bazaar Trademage testing in other decks.) One hit from a 9/9 or 10/10 shadow (or Dreadnought) and finish with Rite of Consumption. It's similar to the Berserk plan that BUG Shadow was doing but allows you to stay in UB. It can also make it so you don't lose to your own Confidants (something I have done more times than I care to admit.)
6) Somehow, everyone always forgets about Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle as answers to Oko. No they aren't ideal, but honestly, what is ideal against a PW that powerful? Some decks can just ignore it (TES, Eldrazi) and others can just answer it with Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment. The rest of us need something less than perfect to deal with it, but that doesn't mean you'll always auto-lose to Oko.
There isn't a known list that has been putting up results, but I'll be damned if it isn't a fun deck to pilot. Once you let go of Standstill a lot of other options open up that might be less powerful in certain situations but are better overall against a broad metagame.
I board out 1 dreadnought 2 standstills 2-3 stifles 1 daze on the draw. On the play i leave in 3 standstills because the threat of t1 delver into standstill. 2 TNN, 2 dismember, 2 EE 1 abrade come in.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
They did it, fam: Looks like we finally got that mythical 2-drop we always wished for.
Heavenly Whale
(look it up; I don't know how to post images here)
card advantage + beatdown in one. Bye bye JVP; bye for now, Bob.
I could not be happier with this. Not least because imo a floating Whale juuust dodges the undignified goofiness of a Sharknado or the new Troll Dolltm Pet Dragon. This is a huge boost for a pure tempo build w/ neither Standstills nor Scrolls. This is my starting point:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2896227#paper
It's just Stifle Delver with Dreadnought as the top-end threat. The Nivmagus / Flusterstorm package is not essential; mainboard the TNNs otherwise. Depending on meta & preference, the Bolts could just as well be Swords (with T3feri & Disenchant out of the board), Thoughtseize/Push/Drown (w SB Engineered Explosives, Bitterblossom) or even Dismembers with some # of Veil & Oko in the side.
I don’t know how effective this Heavenly Whale will be, it’s sorcery speed (so you’re getting nothing vs Oko) and probably not better than Dreadhorde...like it’s better with Stifle, but a lot more preconditions for casting. I think I’d still run Snapcaster over either of them in the value department (though you’d need more lands). You’re still dying to Goyf with this card, and you’ve got substantial questions vs Oko and Uro. I don’t see having no Scroll as resulting in a more winning deck, the card is just absurdly powerful. You give the Whale haste or flash and maybe I’d change assessment.
I think the cycling-turtle and shark’nado are closer to hits, though probably not going to work in a Dreadnought shell due to lack of slots (like 1x Shark’nado would be playable). Nesting Grounds is quite good as a novel anti-Chalice/anti-Vial card (though we’d need charge counter cards). Boon of the Wish-Giver is playable, but pointless. Call of the Death-Dweller can cheat in a Dreadnought with 2 in the yard (But worse than a PW or Scroll at cmc3). Keep Safe is not entirely unreasonable.
Nothing really there for Dreadnought yet, but I’d pick up cycle-Turtle if below $5, 2x Shark’nado if $1, 2x Nesting Grounds $2 or less. Heavenly Whale is better than complete whiffs like Pteramander and Vantress, but I think it lives in the Tasigur/JVP/Stratus Dancer/Fathom Seer/Thing in the Ice/etc. bracket; like it’s fine, but you need to have a whole bunch of other things going on b/c these cards don’t answer questions posed by the legacy format.
As far as the rest of the format goes, due to the effortlessness of using Dreadhorde I think this Whale will probably be a flop; which is at least fitting for a fish.
To clarify, I'm not excited because it's exactly super busted but rather because I consider it highly playable, interesting and well-balanced play design. Having said that, I think you're overly pessimistic since you're looking through the Standstill lens. If Standstill's (extremely play/draw-dependent) ceiling is 1U: draw 3, Whale's is UU: draw 4 spells, get a 3/3 flyer. I get that, realistically, it'll be more like 2-3 spells and it won't often come down before T3. (even tho T1 fetch > Stifle, Force their Force, T2 fetch > Whale is a line that can happen).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Arcanist is a stronger card in general but, as Rich Cali has been pointing out, it comes with the very real deck building cost of filling yr deck with air (2-3 Preordains) and it disincentivizes holding up mana. The Whale synergizes perfectly with Stifle at a much higher power level than JVP. (This is not close: it's a 3/3 flying JVP that doesn't loot once or twice). Buying back an early Daze or a mid-game FoN is huge, not to mention reusing Stifle for hardcasting 12/12. All of these value creatures (except for Snap, who is for a different deck as you pointed out) need to untap to do their thing, and you could honestly do worse than having your 2-drop 3/3 Elked.
You know I've been jamming Scrolls in a UB tempo list with no Standstills, so for me the question is whether this turns out to be better than that, and I think that's a very open question.
The sorcery speed, wait a turn for maybe-value cards are always a tough sell. Confidant scores some points b/c you have this built-in mechanism that punishes opponents for giving you life with Plow. You look at the Whale and those Plows are going to slow down your delving, and you’re going to get into a prolonged game where you’re trying to beat Uro with a delayed 3/3. There’s other things in the format, but half-ish of the Oko/Uro decks will be StP-users ~ may as well plan around worst case scenario.
This card should should probably just be an Uro (which would screw up your colors, so you can’t really do that), or at least match up well against it. It feels like the speed of this card signs you up for a long game your deck isn’t meant to play (Probably not casting this reliably until turn 4). Coming down so late is going to walk into Daze-proof Snapcasters & Ice-Fangs instead of pressuring early removal sources (like Confidant does). I suspect this card leads to a mismatch of timings where it hurts the Daze/Wasteland/Stifle plan, and then comes down solo (no support from the mana denial package). For the rest of legacy I can’t really think of a deck playing at the slower speeds which would choose this over a PW/Uro.
Um, that deck is tempo / Delver? Look at the whale as a weird chimera of Delver, Arcanist and Hooting Mandrills. I respectfully disagree that it doesn't gel with our mana denial. I was coming at the card from the UR Delver angle, where the 3/3 evasive body is a real asset among all those 2/1s, 1/3s, and 3/1s, and then I realized that buying back Stifles allows us up to include a couple or more Dreadnoughts. Again: buying back reactive spells is a big upgrade over what Bob and Arcanist do. It's what made JVP borderline playable in the first place. For Uro and Oko there are other answers: red blasts, Submerges, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Let's just try it out and see.
I don't think Heavenly Whale is playable, because it's a 3/3. I think it falls into the category of Pteramander and Cryptic Serpent: close, but not reliable enough to make it long term in legacy. People will try it, it will win some games, but I don't think it's enough. Arcanist and Confidant are both still better than this. All die to bolt, some have significantly more potential if protected.
At 4/4 its playable, maybe even as a 3/4. Delver is more efficient, True Name has better text. I feel the wisdom of Admiral Ackbar is appropriate here.
The issue with comparing Whale to Mandrils and other [RUG] Delver staples is that their deck gets ahead in a very aggressive way, to the point that it lacks a comeback mechanism. Dreadnought steps back on the aggression and says “I can create this tempo bubble wherein atypical magic can happen, and this can be done b/c a 1 mana 12/12 is a tempo reservoir.” This Whale exists outside that bubble, meaning you’re not really going to reliably be able to do the mana denial/count to 20 combo, having Whale come in on time and then bridging the transition to Dreadnought (rebuying Stifle). It’s more likely that you’re forcing yourself to play sorc-speed Dreadnoughts before you can play the Whale, and you’re left with a 3/3 on turn 4 just isn’t gonna get there (Oko and Uro are already gaining 3 per turn, so now you can’t even get bailed out by following Dreadnoughts).
Delver isn’t winning games by playing 6-8 wincon cards they can’t deploy from hand early. It’s fine to test things, but I don’t think this Whale will lead to advantageous timing windows/threat sequencing. It’s a card I wouldn’t buy if it cost over $2. It feels a little too much like playing Dreadnought and Strix, then justifying the value trigger by using Soul Flayer (4/4 flying deathtouch trample).
Edit: the other thing about RUG Delver is that their answer to dying to Goyf is the nuclear option (Goyf + Bolt, to win the mirror fight). Whale still has significant "I'm dying to Goyf" issues it hasn't answered.
Look, folks: It's a new toy. Sultai Scavenger with inbuilt CA. Most people's immediate reference point seems to be Arcanist, the single most impactful addition to Delver in the past few years and now widely regarded to be the best creature in those decks. (The latest RUG renaissance is only a couple of weeks old at this point, and @Fox your points about Delver don't really apply to UR and Grixis with Arcanist and Bedlam.) Whale is not quite on par with DHA, but synergizes with Stifle. Basic math also shows that the it's more powerful/less situational than Pteramander, Gargoyle, JVP, Cryptic Serpent. My estimation is that if we have any early plays at all, it can come down T3 more often than T4. (just think of any of those Delver openings involving Daze, Wasteland, Bolt/Stifle/cantrip/Force.) But as complex and contingent as this game is, play patterns / sequencing / etc. is all just hypothetical at this point. Based on that kind of thinking Arcanist was slept on at first too. Then he just transformed those patterns and here we are.
Thoughts of Yidaro, Wandering Monster in this deck? It gives us another way to abuse people trying to sit under a Standstill by just cantripping this guy and letting him shuffle back in. I could see this card being very good for us here.
Yidaro has some issues with timing which Standstill can‘t overcome, namely that you need the ability to race an otherwise poor matchup. It is technically fine in UR, but you need the tempo plan to be online, otherwise by the time you make him opponents will have a hand full of removal (Delvers need to be discarding removal spells). The real issue is that you have to keep the Dreadnought stuff going, or you‘re going to lose to Standstill‘s traditionally bad matchups (Vial, yard combos, Post, Burn/counterburn). So knowing that you need the tempo slots for Delver, and you still need the Dreadnought side, you won‘t have room for enough copies of this guy to hit the battlefield (very hard to draw a 1-2x copies four times in a game).
The fix to all this is playing UWr for Teferi, Karakas, and better removal (StP and true Wrath-effects). Once you have Teferi, you no longer care how many removal spells an opponent has in hand b/c they can‘t ever cast them (Teferi passive), and you can bounce him back to hand to repeat attacks with Teferi [-3] or Karakas. Now that you don‘t care about them having removal you don‘t need Delver as Duress...which now leads to not needing Daze (and not wanting to cast Daze b/c you‘re trying to cast a 3-dop) <- this is convenient b/c we already dropped Bolt for Plow and are interested in Wrath.
Running 3c is highly dubious with any Dreadnought strategy, and we‘re putting a high quality wincon [cycle-turtle] on a minority color. Can‘t really afford to run a basic Mountain, and Volc is gonna be a significant source of losing to Wasteland. Now it‘s possible to work around having Volc with Astrolabe singleton w/ E-Tutor trick (playing 3-4x Astrolabe without Oko will never compete in legacy; loss of slots is too high). You get 2x E-Tutor and it can give you the Astrolabe (with a 1x being effective 3x) while staying slot-neutral; as you‘re able to trim artifact/enchants without noticing much of a difference.
So we know the colors, how to secure the mana, and assembled a coherent & high quality late-game wincon. The issue is still the bit about getting to that point. I‘ve played a ton of UW Standstill, and the things that deck can‘t overcome are Oko and Burn/counterburn. Budget Delver (UR) is not a good Delver deck compared to Delver decks that had DRS, and it‘s that banning which lets them exist as more than a meme. The extra Bolts they have are a real problem b/c sitting behind a Standstill can‘t beat draw/discarding into a hand full of burn. Between UR Delver and Oko, the no-Dreadnought UW Standstill deck cannot be considered competitive at this time; adding some red for the cycle-turle doesn‘t fix this fundamental structural flaw.
Whether UWr or UR, both strategies still need the Dreadnought stuff, so we don‘t really have the time nor slots to engage in cycling for an 8/8. In a match where we could get away with that, we could just have brought in a 1x from the SB: 13/13 Emrakul, 6cmc Ugin, 6cmc Chandra, etc.
The UWr cycle-turtle is really close to being a finished list, but it needs to see Oko banned and DRS unbanned (DRS would never be able to pressure under a Standstill b/c tapping down would result in a response 8/8). Barring that, it needs cards that don‘t exist yet.
How crazy would it be to run UB? I've been having fun running black on mtgo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I agree with Tobitzki
I think the new Whale is extremely good. She makes fast pressure, as Delver does too.
The Whale could be a MUST KILL creature for our opponent to provide us from making card advantage.
Having 8 of those creatures could clear the way for Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Also this creature could be a "must kill"
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...t0sfRo6sSifhh3
That's my idea
8 Fetchlands
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Fiery Islet
4 Wasteland
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Heavenly Whale
2 Sea-Dasher Octopus
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Stifle
1 Vision Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
The whale isn't that good compared to that Cycling guy that Rood suggested that plays around standstill
Now you have 8 cards to burn standstill with
I don’t know that UB really gains much by running Dreadnought. They aren’t really winning with combat damage, and it’s already in their interest to run Karn (the only profitable way for them to kill a Chalice). At most they’d have 1x Scroll main and a 1x Dreadnought in the board, b/c that’s all they’d really need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
Having access to Drown in the Loch relieves a lot of pressure on their life total, and Murderous Rider fixes any PW problem while also offering life gain. Stay off board and spam some Innocent Blood and they should be doing just fine.
@Fox All that matters is that UB (like UW) gets access to Sideboard Cat. This whole mechanic is incredibly dumb, overpowered and unfortunate. I anticipate a looming meta of Cat Storm; Cat Grixis Delver, Fox Bomber variants plus the Oko piles. But in any case, they printed it, so... the cat fits better into UW (losing MD PWs and Scroll) and UR (losing TNN & Scroll) here, right? It's not clear that these exchanges will turn out to be worth it, but they should be tested. Cat buys back all the things, incl. Standstill, buys time, and in itself helps offset Dreadnought's card disadvantage.
As for (non-Standstill) UB Stiflenought, I'm looking at a threat suit of 4 Delver | 4 Dreadnoughts | 2-3 Bobs | 1-3 Bitterblossom/Lazav/JVP to accompany the stupid cat.
One way of looking at it is you're starting every game with a Brazen Borrower-type dude out on an adventure. I really hope that I'm wrong here, but it's a free extra card every fucking game. There's a reason Brazen Boi turned Disperse into a MD Legacy staple: It's free.
I stand by my love for the flying Whale, btw, but whether or not it's this much better or worse than Arcanist, Mandrills, JVP, etc. doesn't really matter as long as other decks get to start with 8 cards in hand.
I don't have anything to add to discussing the deck, just want to say that this is how I feel about Companion too. It sets an awful precedent. But unfortunately, as you say, this is where things are now, so... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
Companion either needs to be re-looked at or revisited somehow. I can't see them not addressing this mechanic going forward (seems terrible constructed and horridly balanced). Lets all hope they figure it out.
@Tobitzki companion cat not the best in UW. We can‘t run it from SB since we‘d lose our best cards (PWs/Scroll). Even though I have Karakas, it would eat removal if it was in the maindeck (there is nothing else to clear that out of their hand). As far as white decks go, the cat should be a maindeck DnT staple (Karakas, tutors, Mother, Vial, etc...).
Probably better in UB, but I think you‘re probably playing Petal + Delver/Confidant. If you‘re running it as a companion, you‘re going to have a hard time vs Chalice and will have to rely on Torpor Orb and/or Mask in the main (possibly 1x LDV to find them). The cat would be fine in such a maindeck as a 1-2x. It‘s the same idea as Tasigur, but less life loss of Confidant flips and the lifelink to go up on life. Not a huge amount of things to buy back if your guys are getting exiled, which kinda pushes you to Petal. The deck won‘t have room for Standstill. Petals will push Confidant up to either a 3x or 4x.
I never really thought Petals were playable in a Dreadnought deck, that happened way before my time (and before Push and Decay). I mostly played UB from 2018 and throughout the W&6 meta, without Bobs. (fwiw, I've also never liked Standstill in UB.) With the Cat I think you're right, tho, Petals become a viable option again (but do not ever maindeck the companion!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Couple more things: Not worried about Chalice, not adding any 1drops here. And yeam Mask is back on the menu (if I only owned one), as is Lazav.
EDIT: correction: Torpor Orb obviously does work here, too
Pretty sure Torpor Orb works just fine with the companion cat since it‘s cmc=2.
Can‘t link from twitch with tablet, but Card Kingdom had a stream last night of BUG Dreadnought. Lots of structural flaws in construction though: Daze w/o Wasteland in a deck trying to spam 3-drops, Oko and Standstill without removal, and Delver stranded by himself and struggling to flip. Pilot was able to dodge Delver, 4c Oko, Vial, Goyf, and Hymn/CB; ended up 4-1 vs RW Painter, Aluren (this was a loss, except that oppo ran out of clock), OkoLands (loss), Belcher, SnT. All pretty favourable matchups which failed to pressure early to exploit construction errors, so at 4-1 to 5-0 result is what we‘d expect vs that lineup. Despite the parade of good matchups and lack of punishing the construction, it‘s a good series to watch as a number of different/better lines of play often present. The series also begins by reinforcing one of the most important rules: get basic Island first. This opening game is the highest yield as you get to see how things fall apart when you open with incorrect land sequencing and follow up with an incorrect FoW pitch. The pilot ends up winning that game iirc, but it‘s way more of a struggle than it had to be. The pilot understands the format, but often gets a little lost in sideboarding. Looking at what is in the sideboard and asking yourself what you‘d add/cut in these matches is also worthwhile (get to see 5 different decks rather than the single 4c Oko fair soup deck).
my apologies, of course you're right. I was too deep into Fox brewing mode...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox