[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingsey

How important is it to run a Bayou?

Could you get away with

8 fetches
3 seas
3 tropicals
1 island

---

I just started playing the deck recently, but I've found playing all three duals is very helpful against wasteland. I would definitely recommend it over playing a basic.

On 3 land, with bayou, you won't get color screwed by a single wasteland, but if you have U. Sea, Tropical Island, Island or even 2 of one dual, and one of the other, you lose access to a color. The deck's pretty strong against Wasteland, so I wouldn't worry about playing basics. If you notice in Bryant Cook's Round 5, Game one, his opponent's wastelands actually advance his strategy.

Then again, Bryant didn't play bayou, and it seemed to work out. Maybe if you play mongoose, you can go without it. In a list with Tombstalker, I'd definitely recommend 1 or 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamis

Then again, Bryant didn't play bayou, and it seemed to work out. Maybe if you play mongoose, you can go without it. In a list with Tombstalker, I'd definitely recommend 1 or 2.

---

Being on a deck with 3 tombstalker, 2 bayou is definitely too many. Bayou is your endgame land to lay down goyf and stalker, or to avoid getting wasted off of a color if you have a sea and a tropical already in play. Even then it's reasonable to search for a second sea over the bayou. Overall it's better to have the 9th fetch for an extra shuffle effect or to have an additional blue source in your opening 7 unless you're on temporal mastery and really hate early wastelands in which case an island is fine. If you're getting wasted early often, you can try to play more cautious with your green sources and it's usually less damaging than being color screwed out of your cantrips. Worst case situation you might be able to turn your green sources into an extra turn for flying damage.

Extirpate on a wasted dual land can really kick TA in the nuts. That's why I prefer spreading my manabase a bit - I used to run 3 Underground Sea, 2 Tropical Island and 1 Bayou, but went to a 2-2-2 configuration, and did not regret it.

Is anyone else leaving stifle out like cook ? I love the card and it really punishes risky hands kept by opponents and can lead to blow outs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingsey

Is anyone else leaving stifle out like cook ? I love the card and it really punishes risky hands kept by opponents and can lead to blow outs.

---

I left them in, but as a way to cover many random things more than to try to "get" people that get unlucky or play poorly. Honestly it's probably better to have a reliable way to interact in the early game with spell pierce/snare or something, you really have no reason to think that your unknown opponent will keep a risky hand, play into them poorly, or even necessarily use fetches.

I think it's better to assume at this point that you want to play stifle because it's useful against the popular decks more so than because it pushes your tempo plan directly in the form of land destruction. Because sometimes your opponent won't just give it to you, and sometimes you need the mana for early pressure and can't hold up blue for stifle, etc. Like if I have the correct mana sources in hand, a stifle, and a thoughtseize/delver/ponder, I'll usually hold up the blue mana first turn for the stifle, because turn 2 i can play the 1-drop and still hold up for stifle and force the opponent to play into my spells, or if they don't I can transition their lack of action into some offensive momentum by turn 3. Even looking at that theoretical situation, how often can you reasonably expect to get that line of play? More often, I open with 1 blue source so I just play the 1-drop immediately.

A lot of the decks for a while were running functionally off of just 1 land, and it's not realistic to try to shut those decks out of the game. It's also not really terrible to play other under-costed disruption. You're going to have to adapt your play to make best use of those spells anyway, so either option is probably fine. IMO use whatever looks the best against the decks that you expect to play against.

I'm also curious about creature combination in BUG tempo. Goyf/Delver - sure. However, I feel that double B for stalker is too much for tempo deck, and thats why I prefer mongoose. Also, I've been testing 2of snapy and it turned out that in tempo oriented BUG it's just too mana heavy card (you need at least 3 mana to do something with snapy). Stalker and mongoose (#2 stalker with snapy) doesn't work together well too. Last but not least, hows Bob doing in BUG? When I'm going for RUG shell (just R->B as in any BUG tempo) I feel like I want a threat, to kill an opponent as fast as I can and 2/1 doesn't get the purpose.

What are your thoughts about creature base? Is the RUG one excelent for us and should we stick with it? Like in Bryant Cook's article.

Edit: about threats (regarding bob): BUG doesn't own lightning bolts so we are not able to burn enemy down if able. By that, 12 creatures may not be enough.

I've been liking Tombstalker, and plan on sticking with it. By the time you gain threshold for Mongoose, you can also delve fully with Tombstalker, so I don't view it as being any slower. Of course, multiple early Mongoose should come online faster than multiple Tombstalker, but really this deck's graveyard fills up very quickly, so multiple Tombstalkers haven't been as big of an issue with me as it was when I played Eva Green.

It outclasses opposing Delvers and can shrink Goyf if needed, which helps against RUG, especially since they have to 2-for-1 themselves to deal with it preboard. I could see Mongoose being better against Miracle and Stoneblade. Tombstalker also won't get stuck on the ground like Mogoose can against Maverick. They've StP, but they also have to deal with Delver and Goyf, as well as fight through counterspells/discard, so I think the 7 fliers plus ability to nullify their removal should be more relevant than shroud in that match-up.

We lose the reach that RUG has with burn, so I think the extra power and evasion helps make up for that. Double black hasn't been a problem for me, but I've also been playing a 4-2-2-8 split with my land.

Stalker schrinks your goyf too, thats why I see de-synergy with rest of my creatures and I was always avoiding him in my decks. Nimble M's shroud helps too since legacy is format filled with ton of removal and StP is the backbone of it for sure. I might experiment with stalker as 2of.

Hows Ooze MD?

Re: Stifle

I think Stifle is a great card and I do run it in RUG. However, I just don't know if there is the space for it in BUG. It doesn't have very good synergy with discard as you typically want to leave mana open early. Outside of hitting Wastelands and Fetches, you can typically handle most of the other things you would want to Stifle with Spell Pierce/Abrupt Decay. You are also increasing your amount of dead late game draws (you already have 4 discard) and you won't always have a Brainstorm to shuffle it away. I know that Stifle can randomly blow people out when hitting non-fetch things but to be honest it is really at it it's best in the early game.

I would love to see a list that finds a way to run Stifle in addition to everything else, but I think you just end up losing something somewhere. You are either cutting Spell Pierces, discard, or removal. The last two are the main reason you are playing BUG over RUG in the first place. For example, the BUG tempo list that came in 7th in the Jupiter Games NELC cut a Daze, a Pierce, a land, and a discard spell to fit in Stifle. Playing fewer than 4 Daze in Tempo is just asking for trouble and cutting down on land is harder for BUG because you run seven two drops instead of just 4 like RUG. If you are going down to less than four discard spells you might as well just play RUG and get the extra reach.

I honestly cannot imagine playing TA without Stifle, ever. It's just so fricking versatile, and quasi-unique in what it does. Many players take their activated or triggered abilities for granted. Well, you can teach them to be more humble and thankful for what they (usually) get, _if_ you choose to let it resolve. Examples: Planeswalker abilities. Batterskull getting its pesky Germ attached. A Miracle-trigger waiting to resolve. That SDT activation that your opponent so desperately needs. KotR, Mother of Runes, Maze of Ith, Vial, ... The list goes on - add potentially backbreaking mana denial and the possibilities Stifle opens up against Wasteland to all that, and I think it's an auto-include. Keeping U open isn't that big of a deal if you don't restrict yourself to stifling Fetchlands alone, which is a bad choice in itself anyway.

Ad Tombstalker: As I said, it's a four-turn clock. Between opposing fetchlands and a few delver hits (before your opponent handles it), make that three or maybe even two turns. I'd wager it's about as easy to protect a Stalker for three turns as it is to protect a Mongoose for five, and that neglects the fact that Mongoose is much more easily blocked than Stalker. The latter just seals the deal much quicker and is less dependent on what's actually on the battlefield in order to succeed. The dissinergy with Tarmogoyf that's often cited isn't that big of a deal, your yard will mostly be filled with instants, sorceries and lands, of which most opposing decks will have at least two types in their yards themselves. The whole graveyard subject becomes less delicate once you start running something with Dredge - I choose Darkblast (yes, mainboard) because it's the bee's knees. Needless to say, you have to delve intelligently and sensibly if you have the chance to (3 mana available, and/or more than or equal to 6 cards in your graveyard). I think everyone can work out the details on how to do that, so I won't bore you with another paragraph about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colo

I honestly cannot imagine playing TA without Stifle, ever. It's just so fricking versatile, and quasi-unique in what it does. Many players take their activated or triggered abilities for granted. Well, you can teach them to be more humble and thankful for what they (usually) get, _if_ you choose to let it resolve. Examples: Planeswalker abilities. Batterskull getting its pesky Germ attached. A Miracle-trigger waiting to resolve. That SDT activation that your opponent so desperately needs. KotR, Mother of Runes, Maze of Ith, Vial, ... The list goes on - add potentially backbreaking mana denial and the possibilities Stifle opens up against Wasteland to all that, and I think it's an auto-include. Keeping U open isn't that big of a deal if you don't restrict yourself to stifling Fetchlands alone, which is a bad choice in itself anyway.

---

It isn't that I think Stifle is a bad card, it is that I wonder if there is the space for it in a BUG shell. I feel like you lose out on something when adding Stifle into the mix. For reference, what does your list look like?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post681377

Went 2-1 with that exact list yesterday, losing to Burn and beating two MUD-lists.

Has no one thought about running Deathrite Shaman in this deck? It seems like just the right thing vs graveyard strategies, the 1/2 body is relevent, and the extra life loss and gain could go over the top vs a deck like burn.

I think he is too slow for tempo strategy (although it's a great card with utility and flexible usage). I'd better go off with 2 Oozes as instant speed graveyard hate. You got discard and counterspells to help you out with burn decks. Ooze heals you a bit too.

What is the general thoughts on hymn vs Inquisition of Kozilek these days?

I think that the targeted discard is better for the time being. Targeted discard is easier on your mana base, better against a format with heavy Spell Pierce/Snare usage, and makes your counters much better. Of course, I also like Thoughtseize over both of those options.

I'm mostly posting in an attempt to attract new activity to this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maximus

I think that the targeted discard is better for the time being. Targeted discard is easier on your mana base, better against a format with heavy Spell Pierce/Snare usage, and makes your counters much better. Of course, I also like Thoughtseize over both of those options.

I'm mostly posting in an attempt to attract new activity to this thread.

---

Other then jace, what does seize grab that IoK doesn't ?

On a side note I've been running 4 decays and they are the real deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingsey

Other then jace, what does seize grab that IoK doesn't ?

On a side note I've been running 4 decays and they are the real deal.

---

Force, terminus, every wrath variation ever, batterskull, moat, replenish....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azador

Force, terminus, every wrath variation ever, batterskull, moat, replenish....

---

Force is a big deal to us ? Pull the other blue card ?

terminus ill agree to.

Who runs wrath ?

Moat we use delver and tombstalker

Batterskull I agree, maybe stifle the germ ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingsey

Force is a big deal to us ? Pull the other blue card ?

terminus ill agree to.

Who runs wrath ?

Moat we use delver and tombstalker

Batterskull I agree, maybe stifle the germ ?

---

Don't act like you've never lost to a force. We all have. You ask for cards, ill give you examples of cards that cost more than 3.

As for wrath variations. Miracles often runs 1-2, lately its supreme verdict, so proactively taking it is even more relevant than ever. Also stoneblade.

I too ALWAYS draw win with without ever using goyf... oh wait... Moat can be a pain, as the decks that run it either run a bunch of other removal or, in the case of enchantress, elephant grass.

Stifling the germ is a fine play. Is much rather just never need to worry about the stupid skull to begin with.