[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Has anyone tried fitting Dragonmaster Outcast into Nic Fit? Or even Scute Mob? They would both go great with Ranger of Eos. Plus, you could abuse the controlling 5-6 lands trigger by using Maze of Ith or other lands that don't tap for mana, but still add to the count for these cards. Also with cheaper "bombs" (1 mana instead of 5 or 6) you could run more card advantage to get more of them out faster, or maybe some Explores. I know it's slow and dies to Deed, but a 5/5 every turn sounds tempting.

@Qweerios:

I've been trying your list out online. It feels solid. I've made a few changes, primarily for budget reasons:

-1, karakas, -1 jace, -2 clique, -4 thoughtseize (sb)
+1 wasteland, +1 Liliana, +1 darkblast, +1 Life from the loam, +4 duress (sb)

And to reliably cast liliana off of explorer I went with 3 forests, 2 island, 2 swamp

I've been having trouble with goblins. Even with 4 deeds, they can refill with ringleader, and then a krenko plus a chieftan really hurt. They can use the extra mana as good as we can. Our best hope seems to be multiple deeds + grave titan, but gifts into something like titan, genesis, witness, deed is sometimes too slow.

Maybe an empath or some damnations in the sb?

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Originally Posted by litenkatt

@arianrhod

thanks for the report

I'm wondering, why are you not playing 1x karakas in main or sideboard atleast?

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It would replace a Plains were it to be maindeck, and I've found myself wanting the 3rd Plains more than I'd like to admit. I actually tried it with the 3rd Plains as a Karakas a while back and it screwed me over. Also, until just now putting Intent in the list, I've had no way to find it. I had to blind-draw it.

SB is a reasonable consideration, and again, it's something I've thought about. However, Sneak likes to board in Karakas of their own against white decks, and I'd rather they have a poorer manabase than the ability to strip mine me anyway. If they want to use a land drop to play Karakas instead of a Volc, I'm perfectly fine with that. If I'd have known I was going to play against 5 Emrakul decks, I would have loved to have it in my board, don't get me wrong. But for most "normal" matches / tournaments / pairings, I'd rather have slots in my board that do more things to more decks (like Humility).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

A few words about the list. The Rusalka was decent, although my matchups weren't really those where it would have shined. Having a sac outlet available via GSZ felt really good to have. I'm still hopeful that we'll get something better somewhere in Ravnica, but if we don't, I'm okay with keeping the Rusalka around. The fact that it's a 1-drop and costs 1 to activate is relevant. Even if we get a 3- or 4-drop with a better activated ability, I'm not sure it's actually better than Rusalka due to the cmc.

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Glad to know that works pretty well; I may give it a shot Thursday. Wish it didn't have G in the activation though. That effectively makes it 1GG a lot of the time and when you're just looking to sac an Explorer that really stinks.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Upon more testing, 2 Sakura-Tribes is definitely the right number. I'm not flooded with them, but I'm seeing them often enough to be content. They definitely increase the number of keepable hands, and their synergy with Nightmare is not to be underestimated. They're also more warm bodies for Therapy flashback, if you're playing vs combo.

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I think I agree here. I ran two last week (only planned one, not sure how I ended up w/ 2) but it was nice having two against a few decks. A) ramping yourself w/o ramping your opponent is good. B) It's pretty awesome for blocking Batterskull.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I didn't miss the Maelstrom Pulse that I cut for the Rusalka. However, I also didn't play against matchups where the Pulse would have been good. The 2nd Elspeth is actually on the chopping block currently. While being able to jump things over Moat is amazing, I think that Sigarda might actually have obsolesced Elspeth. I can Vindicate or Deed away my Moat if I have to, but usually, Sigarda/Baneslayers/Yosei will get there in a Moat matchup. Sun Titan is still of relevance even if it can't attack, because I can loop it through Nightmare. If Elspeth gets cut, it'll be for the 4th Green Sun. Now that I have the Tribe Elders and the Rusalka, I want the 4th GSZ more. We'll see what happens.

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Before you cut that last Elspeth, don't forget the Humility in your board. Jump is great w/ the Moat but less crucial for the reasons you observe than the +3/+3 is w/ the Humility.

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Originally Posted by slikwilly

Before you cut that last Elspeth, don't forget the Humility in your board. Jump is great w/ the Moat but less crucial for the reasons you observe than the +3/+3 is w/ the Humility.

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Granted. However, in my examinations and ruminations upon rebuilding my sideboard for this Vestal, and I resolved to myself that if I played against Maverick, I would NOT board in the Humility, as I had been doing. This enabled me to cut the Curse of Death's Hold, which really is a subpar card most of the time. It just combos with Humility really well. But yeah -- Humility is, in my mind, STRICTLY for the "big creature combo" matchups now -- Sneak, HyperGen, Reanimator, Hulk combo, or anything else trying to do arbitrarily stupid things with arbitrarily huge creatures. Elspeth doesn't matter in those matchups. Your 1/1s are more plentiful and not legendary, as well as being, you know, castable.

Also, /wave Tao. I see you creeping in here! Are you still playing the deck / what are your thoughts on it these days?

A lurker humble request:

¿Could (should) this thread be split into different threads for each of the different versions (Scapeshift, Rector, U splash...)?

At this point the thread doesn't feel like the discussion of different splashes/endpoint packages for the same deck (like for example Goblin splashes/packages), but different decks evolved from the same zenith-explorer base (like ANT, TES and DDFT are treated as different decks despite their things in common); which sometimes makes difficult to keep track as discussion shifts to one version or other.

@Star Scream,

I don't think more sweepers is the answer to goblins. I haven't tested too much that MU but I would assume that something like Curse of Death's Hold or Engineered Plague would be more appropriate in dealing with Ringleaders renewable swarms.

@arianrhod not sure how I feel about the Timmy /Johnny deck patnode calls me combo muppet. After reading your report I do remember playing you with reanimator .

So I have been messing around with the 4 color version I splash u for gifts.
I usually end up making gifts piles that let me lock with yosei and nightmare something like witness Titan nightmare yosei just wanted to get an opinion if you think that's too greedy.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Has anyone tried fitting Dragonmaster Outcast into Nic Fit? Or even Scute Mob? They would both go great with Ranger of Eos. Plus, you could abuse the controlling 5-6 lands trigger by using Maze of Ith or other lands that don't tap for mana, but still add to the count for these cards. Also with cheaper "bombs" (1 mana instead of 5 or 6) you could run more card advantage to get more of them out faster, or maybe some Explores. I know it's slow and dies to Deed, but a 5/5 every turn sounds tempting.

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Tried it, it's really bad. At it's core, the thing is a 1/1 for 1 that dies -very- quickly as soon as the realize that you're invested in it. I got blown out by almost every deck that runs removal, which is most of them. I was never able to get a proc out of him.

Updated GBu Magosi Nice Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

btw what is the best bet for getting a homebrew junkie and a "budget" player who buys cards in bulk often to help playtest against this build with strong Legacy decks or proxy decks?

Jarad's Orders....

Too slow for a nic fit build with genesis?

Jarad's Orders kinda pales in comparison to Intuition and Gifts Ungiven, but two things really sell this a potential 2 to 3 of.

1. BG means BG builds can run it.
2. You choose where the creatures wind up.

So far, I'm drawing a blank for what combinations this would be good with (Eternal Witness+??? being the obvious front-runner). But I'm sure there is some potential.

If anything, I'd say Genesis plus something else. Next up you might roll with Witness and something, but at that point you're much better off playing Eldamari's call for the original target. Perhaps Sun Titan/Fierce Empath to fetch Grave Titan next turn

This could fuel something more fierce, such as the suggested Karmic Guide + Griselbrand/Iona/etc, or serve to set up a new GB combo, but as it is I don't see it dropping in very easily

What are this archetype's more nightmarish matchups pre and post board?

Volraths shapeshifter with a random bomb i guess

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Updated GBu Magosi Nice Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

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Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get how this works. :frown:
Who can explain it to me step by step? :tongue:

shapeshifter would not work because the spell would go on top of the creature in the graveyard upon resolving

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

What are this archetype's more nightmarish matchups pre and post board?

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Always those annoying Turn1 combo decks like belcher and SI[if they go the tendrils route]!! Pre or post-board I usually get smashed. I am assuming you are playing GB, GBW, GBR or Scapewish.

UW miracles are kind of annoying as heck (I play only GB and Scapewish) and I usually lose when I punt somewhere, which I am bound to do ):

Any decks with Hymn to Tourach like The Gate and TA/Team Italia will plow me dead fast with hand rape if they do it early (This was the era I played GB and they run confidants/brainstorm)

Few things --

@EpicLevelCommoner -- Pretty much what FireIced said. Storm combo is overall one of the worst matchups, especially Belcher. High Tide can be a severe problem, as can HyperGen. Depending on your version, Sneak and Omni can both be problematic as well. Rector handles them better than most, and BUG is largely fine vs them depending on the configuration of the list, but Scapewish, Jund, G/B, and Rock are all pretty much just screwed.

Miracles is annoying, but IMO rarely lethal if you play correctly. Rector and Scapewish are best vs Miracles...Rector's curve is really annoying for CB, and Rector can shut down Jace forever via Fetters, while also having the ability to Rector in a Deed and just sit on it. Scapewish can just slowroll Valakut and Miracles can't do a damn thing about it. Scapeshifting for the pair of Valakuts early, even without having enough lands to do damage, is often going to get there vs them.

@Jarad's Orders -- This is bad. If you want to do this effect, play 4c Gifts for Unburial Rites. Orders is a sorcery compared to Gifts instant, and yeah, while you can play Orders without having to splash any colors, Gifts just does it better. Gifts can do anything that Orders can do, but better. Stuff like Karmic Guide and Body Double are fine cards, and I've actually considered trying to do something with Guide periodically....but every time I start down that road, Gifts is just better. It's certainly a "cool" card. But I don't think it's good enough....like Underworld Connections is not a better Phyrexian Arena, despite the fact that you can turn it off. I think I've died to my Arena once in the history of ever. We tend to have a superfluity of mana, but that doesn't mean that spending an extra mana to Arena every turn is where we want to be.

@Magosi -- it doesn't work. You'll just end up skipping your extra turn.

@caggii -- definitely not too greedy. I have a version like that built myself. The mana base can be a little tricky, but once you figure it out it's surprisingly hard to wreck. I'll post my list at some point -- don't have it handy at the moment =( But it's definitely possible.

@Opaco -- we've actually discussed that fairly recently, and we chose to keep it as one thread for the time being. There's enough similarities and cross-pollination between all of the different versions that when one version makes an innovation, the others can usually benefit from the discovery.

Son of a ... I thought you could go infinite take turns followed by infinite skip turns.

Oh well, still like intuition. Just need another win con package.