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Once upon a time people thought that dual lands were terrible cards too - cursing them every time they opened one instead of a shivan dragon. People also used to trade moxen for basic lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
A card's value is conditional, and I will maintain that cards are worth testing.
For the meta they played in they probably were turds....Shivan used to be boss...lol
I'll assume from your non-answer that you're removing good cards like Bob to play bad cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
FYI: It's not 1995 anymore. Most people have a much better handle on card evaluation and Magic theory.
Scrubland: I don't need a lot of white, and it's only a 2-color list. I think it's just a bit too redundant with Urborgs turning all of my plains into scrublands, as well as the fairly high amount of basics I run. I don't want recurring wastelands to ruin my day when it doesn't have to. Also, they are fetchable, so it's not like I'm not going to be able to find one if I need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Phyrexian Crusader: Pro Red and White is insane against removal. I understand that poison in a non-poison list in unconventional, but if I could just point your attention to the Fireshrieker, you will notice one or two things. First, Double-strike is awesome because damage in the form of -1/-1 counters as a first striker allow you to get the counters on the blocking creature before it strikes. Also, this allows for a total of 4 (or more) poison counters unblocked, which is not difficult because of the other equipment in the list, and easily unblocked via mother of runes. Furthermore, -1/-1 counters on a goyf is actually really good to reduce damage until removal can be found. Also, Jitte is a beast, each counter removed equals 2 more poison counters.
3x Dark Ritual: My testing buddy was arguing with me about this point as well, and it's a good question. Best answer? It's one of the worst topdecks in the list, especially after turn 3. I want to see one a game mostly. I have played pretty much only storm lists for the past year +, and I understand how often you topdeck them, and also how often you see multiples. However, it is good at 3 for the reason that my 3cc slot is fairly saturated, I can play a Gatekeeper on turn one kicked to rid the board of a lackey or any other threat, drop it unkicked for a 2/2 body and throw down a thoughtseize turn one, which is a lot of fun (tempo killa), Rit, thoughtseize, bob, turn one Hippy/N-Hawk/Crusader, I mean it has a lot of application, it's just not necessary as a 4-of, especially with wastelands and plains being about half of my mana. On a side note, Dark Ritual is good (really good) against Spell Pierce.
Only 4x Discard: Not true, 3x Duress in the side for the combo matchup, plus hippies and the ability to swords my own critters to maintain a high enough life that the storm player has to really sculpt his hand. This plus lifelink and hypnotic specter is fairly solid. Also, Disruption + anything with legs + Jitte is awesome because of the lifegain. Also, the pump is good if you are playing against Ad Nauseam lists because the lower in life you get them, the more apt they are to fizzle/die.
Vials in the side: These are in the board for the simple reason that sometimes you have to be less aggressive and be more about resolving important creatures through a counterbalance. There is also vialing in critters at the end of a turn, or during combat, which with infect creatures is good, and so is vialing in Mystic. It's for when you need more tempo, and less explosiveness, I now speak to threat density. They are really important IMO against Merfolk.
Equipments in the Side: This is a personal choice, and if you don't like or have my playstyle, they can be open slots for the things you spoke of my sideboard lacking. I don't like removal for tribal because this list runs 25 creatures, all with either 2/3 cc's or with x/2 toughness, which really sucks. Flying and Lifelink is often what wins games, along with Infect. If Fireshrieker isn't a relevant card in the matchup I'm in, I will side it out for another swords, vice versa. This speaks to threat relevance. Say I'm up against a BG Evagreen. Sword of Fire and Ice will need to come out for a SoLS for the simple fact that it's simply the better choice, and exactly opposite against Goblins/Fish, trading out SoLS for a second SoFI. I try to keep this extremely focused.
The questions were expected, I hope my answers help you understand my list and it's potential. It takes a slightly different approach than most of the lists I've seen on this thread.
--ABC
I fundementally disagree with your assessment of "most people". If "most people" have such a handle on card evaluation and Magic theory and were able to so quickly and easilly discern card value in any given deck we wouldn't need forums and there would only be one version of every deck, and quite possibly only one deck ("the best deck"), because those same people would be able to figure out what the "best deck" is - which is clearly not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
And you're right, it's not 1995 anymore, there are a lot more cards, a lot more stragies, and a lot more playstyles and factors that play into what card is "the right card". Bad cards can be good cards - hell people were saying stoneforge mystic was bad too...even 'Goyf was a $5 rare (or less) when he came out - how do you explain that with all of the Magic theory super beings wandering around? lol
My contention is that Mom is too reactive and needs a replacement, and the deck needs a better finisher. I'm actively looking for those cards...although I can't help but just rule a few out (for a multitude of reasons). Through my handle on magic theory I've deduced that the deck has issues that can be corrected, and I'm using card evaluation and *gasp* playtesting *gasp* to find these cards - does that make you feel better?
Well, if you two are quite through being off-topic and effectively trolling, and are also in the mood for *gasp*card evaluation and playstesting*gasp*, maybe you would be interested in giving my new list just a couple posts up a few goldfishes.
Just a thought.
--ABC
Fair enough - although I think that we're both pretty on-topic...although trolling would be an adequate term :rolleyes:
Artifacts
1x Fireshrieker
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
Land
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
3x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells
3x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Vindicate
In fishing this list I've found the disruption to be a little light for my taste - but I will say that the rituals provided some additional offense that I found interesting, and gave the ability to force the offensive against decks that I'd normally want the disruption against (fish, rock), therefore helping matchups by forcing these decks into the control role. Ultimately though I felt like the card disadvantage that dark ritual provides just make the card unapealing...plus it opens the deck up to 2 for 1's against control opponents - which is a good reason to have vials in the board (but I'll talk more about that in a minute). Also, running 3 rit's and 18 land ended up with some god-aweful opening hands for me - especially with the volume of 3 drops in the deck (14?). Generally if I didn't have an opening hand rit and a couple of land I felt like the hand was too slow and I needed to throw it back.
That being said, I think the number of 3-drops that you have in the deck supports the rituals and card disadvantage, since it won't be often that you play 2 spells on turn 3 like the more common deadguy builds. As a result, getting a turn 1 rit-specter play forced or dazed won't mean that you run out of cards on turn 3, because you're playing slower.
I'm still not crazy about Crusader's infect ability - but he does have the right protections at the right CMC for you build - goldfishing isn't enough for this guy, I'd have to actually playtest him.
It's definately an interesting build, and it tries to push what is a mid-range deck into an aggro deck, but I don't think it gets there - it's just too dependant on ritual (which there is only 3 of, and opens you up to card disadvantage). There are just too many decks that are cheating Emmy and Progenitus into play right now to just have 4 discard spells and too few ways to deal with either of those creatures once they hit the board. Turn 1 Rit-specter seems pretty lame compared to turn 2 Emmy....
We basically have a choice right now - sit in the midrange deck category with a 13-15 card disruption suite and creatures that add additional disruption, become an aggro deck with 4-8 pieces of disruption, or become a control deck with 25 pieces of disruption and bigger finishers. I don't think Black and/or white have the right card compliment (even in legacy) to be anything but midrange and be competitive - I'm still looking for someone to prove me wrong, but I haven't found it yet.
There's some additional little things here, like I don't like an 8-card mystic package (I generally feel it's too heavy), and I don't like a second Urborg Tomb, but most of these items are based on personal preferance more than anything.
Sideboard
4x Æther Vial
3x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Smother
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Duress
1x Vindicate
A couple things here...
Again with the mystic package - I think 8 cards being dedicated to the main is already too much...another 3 cards in the board definately feels overkill, especially in a deck that is trying to go more aggro, when this approach is a very slow finisher. Generally, in any build of dead-guy that I play I almost never want for MORE equipment. Even swapping out of equipment seems unnecessary...it's more likely that I'm looking for more dudes to swing a stick, rather than a different stick. An opening hand SfM or equipment always feels dead to me against aggro or fast combo - which is a lot of the field right now....there just isn't a ton of control or mid-range (though Rock is making a comeback).
Vial - I like vial in the board, I tend to think that is where it belongs. But you pretty much have to run 4 and your deck should really be made to run it, so it takes a lot of spots, so that's already one strike. Currently your mix between 1cmc, 2cmc, and 3cmc is prohibitive to running vial (this could change out the board...but since you have no creatures in the board it's most likely that your creature count will just go down while your vial count increases, so it's unlikely.) I think the situations where you reach for vial out of the board are pretty slim anyway - unless there's a ton of counter-top in your meta, which you won't be that weak against anyway since so many of your guys are 3cmc.
Needle's a good board card, but I'd be more likely to run Revoker - especially if you want to run vial out of the board. The additional beats that a revoker can offer tend to outweigh the CMC difference IMHO, and the situations where you run either needle or Revoker against a heavy-removal deck are pretty slim.
Lastly, Duress and Vindicate. I don't think this gets you there against combo. You don't have enough main-deck hate to allow 4 more hate cards to make a difference.
Just my $0.02
I'm still pulling for Stillmoon Cavalier...ESPECIALLY if you're trying to pull off Dark Ritz.
I have to say that at a glance, the equipment package is significantly weaker if you're trying to get the most out of Infect Knight - I don't like the notion that there's only one creature that becomes markedly better with one piece of Equipment in the deck. Like, even a Mother of Runes with a Sword of Fire and Ice is a 3/3 that draws cards and shoots things. In short - again, just as an observation - it looks like trying to pack a Cool Thing in the deck makes the overall capacity weaker. Phyrexian Crusader has no synergy with actual combat damage, and there absolutely will be times when you have an opponent who stabilizes with X health and N poison counters, and you'll wish that X + N = one fucking win condition. And let's say you've got one Hypnotic Specter and one Phyrexian Crusader in play, and one Fireshrieker - who do you give it to? They don't win the game for the same reasons, and not only that but Fireshrieker offers no protection from anything like the Swords or even a loaded Jitte can.
I also think that running Dark Ritual pushes the deck in a different direction. It's not like a first turn Hypnotic Specter doesn't look pretty good with a second turn Tidehollow Sculler, but there are going to be times when you wished your White spells were Black because you're holding two lands and a Ritual and can't accelerate into anything.
So yeah, I think the Fireshrieker and Rituals and Hyppies and Infect Knights should all go into a different deck, and then we should make *that* deck win games, because really it feels like a whole different plan of attack altogether.
hi all.
i've been back to Magic about 3 months after last playing as a teen. i decided to build deadguy as it was closest to what i used to play back when Strip Mine was a 4-of and Wastelands were afterthoughts. oh, and when you had Vampiric and Demonic Tutors available. and when Icy Manipulator and Jayemdae Tome were hot tech.
but back to the present: i've been lurking for a while, and i'm still getting used to the deck, but maybe my impressions can be of some value.
my list:
Lands
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp
Spells
3 Dark Ritual
2 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
first up: i've been playing around with Dark Rituals. i've been reading the Gate thread a bit, and there's debate over the explosiveness vs. card disadvantage. my take on it is this: when it works well, it works very very well. when it works poorly—you get the idea. T1 Thoughtseize + Hymn is good, or Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy + Top is nice, but T1 Nighthawks or T2 Persecutors are usually dealt with.
the whole reason i went in that direction was my horrible game 1s against speed and tribal—anything slower like Team America or Rock, Aggro Bant, even counterbalance or thresh, i'm good against, but Vial Goblins or Merfolk just overwhelm you, often even with a seemingly good hand. (ugh, dont get me started on Affinity.) i think part of this is down to my still-not-quite-there mulligan discipline (never, never keep a hand without discard! how many times!!), but the deck lacks explosiveness in a certain sense. somewhat counterintuitively, this weakness is exploited if T1 Hymn hits redundancies or less-than-critical pieces of the opponent's hand. waiting for t2 or even t3 (while risky against the fast decks) lets the opponent's hand 'concentrate', with the less-critical pieces and land often on the board.
with this in mind i'm mulling over losing the Dark Rituals, adding more targeted discard—Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Tidehollow Sculler, for example—and going all in with 4 Wastelands with a view to getting to the mid-game.
second issue is what happens when a T1 threat IS landed. take a T1 Lackey or Vial. adding the 2 innocent blood to the 4 swords to plowshares in the deck has helped in the first instance, but a resolved vial tends to spell the end for me in the second, especially against merfolk (counters for plowshares, edicts, and vindicates). by T3 when the catch-all Vindicate or stabilizing Nighthawk shows up, the tide has already turned. post-board hate (in the form of 4 Engineered Plague, usually) has thus far failed to get me there.
against tribal, i'm thinking about Ghostly Prison in addition to Engineered Plague in the board, and perhaps Pithing Needle board or Phyrexian Revoker maindeck for the vials. i also cast my mind back to Wrath of God... or Damnation, but would they be too slow?
speaking of pithing needle and pithing beetle, i feel i need an answer to Affinity and Forgemaster/Painter's Servant combos. Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker would do the trick now (naming Cranial Plating, Greaves/Forgemaster/Voltaic Key/Grim Monolith, or Grindstone)—but teenaged me maindecked 4 disenchant, and i'm beginning to wonder if thats not so crazy, despite being narrow hate. it would also help with vials, and boarded-in Leylines of Sanctity..... short that, Serenity in the sideboard is some nice tech.
and while on the topic of sideboard tech, i absolutely love playing against dredge. its almost serene knowing you'll drop game 1 by accelerating them into their graveyard, only to board out all discard and in all the grave hate (Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, and Extirpate). a single relic gets you there most of the time, and a second one is game over.
the last issue is what to do against the snuck-in/accelerated fatty (Emrakul, Blightsteel Colossus, Progenitus). in Show-n-Tell an Edict or Innocent Blood should be the ticket, but in an NO, elves, or Forgemaster matchup the presence of other creatures combined with untargetability is a pickle. a friend's take on the deck has Tariff and Retribution of the Meek in the board for just those situations.
given that i'm catching up on 15 years of increased diversity with the Legacy playables of dozens of new sets to learn, i hope i'll soon think less in term of the sideboard and more about how some smarter, more skillful play can increase my success with the deck and minimize its weaknesses against the array of strategies out there.
but, until i get some more play experience under my belt, how can we improve the versatility of the deck against non-aggro, cheating, and fast tribal?
the cheating faction is not so scary when you played some games, usually they sigh game one when they see me drop a scrubland^^ we are one of their bad matchups with maindeck sacc-effects. I come on 6 sacc-effects postboard atm, thats enough, Extirpating SnT or Natural Order is fun too.
Tribal is far more annoying in my opinion. We have Plagues. Against Elves Perish. End of the Song. At the Moment I'm tinkering with spells to shot down Utility-Critters like Lakay, Noble Hierarch, Bob... for 1Mana, for Example Lose Hope as it offers cardquality or Disfigure with a bit more punch or Midnight Charm for combat tricks
hey, i have to say i love Deadguy and its rly funny to play with, but could we do a decklist together? There are some decks posted, but these are all different versions. So could we discuss this a bit? I dont mean the number of cards playing in the deck, i mean the cardchoices because there are rly many different cards i could/want to play.
thanks
Kiwi: In my opinion, if you're looking for a starting point - use one of the 2 recent winning decks from like 4-5 pages ago. There is one with Vial and one Without, which IMHO is the biggest differences in lists right now.
warfordium: Your list is SO gate with a white splash that I feel like I can't really comment on it intelligently, since they answer issues a slightly bit different than us. The biggest difference is the lack of targeting discard - Personally I feel that anything less than 8 just isn't enough, and I don't count cabal therapy since you have to already know what they have...which can be tough for someone who admits he hasn't played legacy in 15 years :) I feel like some of the issues you talk about are answered by the targeting discard that we run - especailly against Fish. Against Fish, Vials don't bother me - basically if they start to unload their hand I just start leading my removal with discard, forcing them to have multiple counters in hand and use them all. Plus I can generally play around daze and a 2 for1 with Force when I have discard is generally really bad for them. In my limited experience against fish I've actually found it to be a pretty cake matchup...
In the side I play disenchant too...lol, but I'm a little old school too. I'm also debating maindeck revoker, so none of your answers seem unreasonable - you probably just need testing to find the right numbers. Generally WoG and damnation I think are too slow, I've found that EPlague is actually better against mutavaults anyway. I think the biggest thing is just to remember to save your removal for lords. But this strategy isn't as effective with the Gate since so many of your "removal" spells are sac effects.
@safety...I haven't ruled it out yet, but generally I'd just rather play the 2/1 pump knight for BB with pro white - it's the same guy for one less mana and pro black is generally irrellevant in the current meta.
@war: whats really the point of having the singleton flagstone?
i like where you're heading with this. i'm going to try Funeral Charm. running an Urborg and enabling swampwalk or boosting a Persecutor at the last second to deal lethal... in addition to taking out a lackey or cursecatcher— nice tricks. and the singleton discard isnt too bad either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
i hear you on the Gate+splash accusation, coming back to the game i'm in love with all these friggin' undercosted creatures and Persecutor is the one for me. to that, i can say that i have never failed to remove Persecutor in time to win... which tells me i should risk it and play fewer sac effects, and use more *drumroll* targeted discard. more playtesting is the key. i prefer the non-Vial, non-My$tic list, so what would you suggest? Sculler and Duress are the cards which spring to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
i agree about leading with discard—i have success against thresh and counterbalance with exactly that tactic. perhaps i should see fish as less tribal and more permission? i'll take the bait-the-counters-and-nix-the-lords advice, thanks!
wrt Cabal Therapy, i have whiffed on it maybe 3 times out of the dozens i've cast it (i'm not THAT slow on the uptake). and on more than a couple of occasions its been a 2 for 1 (nabbing 2 goyfs or Wurmcoil Engines on a Cabal Therapy: priceless!), and i dont keep hands where thats my only discard unless i'm damn sure of what i'm playing against, so i'm for it overall. sweepers are indeed far too slow in Legacy, Engineered Plague is the way to go.
as for Revoker, i'm hoping its a panacea for the things i find annoying....with all the effects in bodies or combos, is there a matchup where there is nothing worth naming? i'm trying 3 in the main at a smallish tournament tomorrow (with 4 wastelands, no rituals, and a 5th Thoughtseize in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek), i'll do my best to post a tournament report along with the finalized decklist... and spur some more discussion!
i saw it as a strictly better Plains, which comes back after armageddon, and survives sundering titan.....except under moon effects. you have a point, its such an edge case that i might be better off with a second plains. atm i'm running a singleton Plains to be able to fetch it in an emergency or to have options following a PtE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parax
Order of the Ebon Hand maybe?
two of my creatures back in the day were Order of the Ebon Hand and Wildfire Emissary for their protection from Swords to Plowshares (aka white) and because the latter was out of bolt range or sometimes drew two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I placed second at a GPT today using my list from a page or so back. I lost to Zoo in the finals. Anyone want a tournament report?
-Matt
Just go ahead. You already could have written it ;)
sure we want a report =)
for comfort please with Decklist XD