Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?
Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).
So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.
There is so much wrong in this post. Burn isn't the worst deck in the format, there are way worse decks and because it's cheap a high procentage of player plays it. And it doesn't lose against everything with U in it. Get your facts straight.
The Goblin deck doesn't run Lightning Bolt usually, but they run Gempalm Incinerator MB and Pyrokinesis SB. And you completely forget RUG Delver (was already mentioned by user above me), one of the three (arguably the most played) deck in the format.
Plus not all single target removal spells are R. There are so many removal spells floating around right now, that playing SFM with Batterskull without counterspells is risky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.
Phyrexian Metamorph, while good against Emrakul and Iona, just sucks against Griselbrand. Not only that you can't bring him in under Show and Tell, the enemy can even respond to him with drawing cards to counter him. Because of this I cutted the Metamorph from my SB.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?
Might as well forget running Stoneforge Mystic as anything other than a crappy tutor then since it obviously isn't good at doing anything else in this format. In fact why are we even running such a sub par card if all that is going to happen to it is that it will get burned or exiled by opposing cards? For that matter why are we even playing a creature based deck in the first place? Surely that is just asking to have our creatures hit by burn and removal and in the process getting ourselves 2 for 1'ed all over kingdom come.
Irony much?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?
Natural Order => Prog is one of the strongest combinations in format, yet it fell out of popularity because of metagame shift, new printings etc.
Best control-aggro deck now is UW(b) Stoneblade, but some time ago noone could imagine such kind of deck without Tarmogoyf.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
Actualy, I was talking about Batterskull, not Mystic.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.
okay, what other equipment in the game gives you a 4/4 lifelinking, vigilant creature just for being put onto the battlefield? That isn't even to mention the fact that it can be reequipped to other creatures assuming you have enough mana. Add to this the fact that this deck makes the Germ Token virtually invincible what with combination from Mother of Runes, and the fact that if the original Germ Token were dealt with you can simply create another by using Flickerwisp on the batterskull.
Further is the fact that to achieve all this you simply need to pay 2 mana twice. Or heck even better, if you vialed your Stoneforge Mystic into play, you only need to pay 2 mana once!
The problem you guys seem to be making of this, is that you assume that the Stoneforge Mystic is automatically going to be the first thing that is targeted, not other cards in your deck. For example, if I have a Mother of Runes in play alongside a Stoneforge Mystic, which would a deck with removal rather try to get rid of? The Mom, or the Mystic? I wager it would be the Mom every time. This is especially true for decks whose creature count is predisposed towards a single color.
The basis of your entire argument, henges on the fact that Stoneforge Mystic will be the only threat on the table. This is generally not the case. If it were, then why play a deck with so many threatening creatures? Heck why play Mangara of Corondor in the deck at all, he is just a flimsy 1/1 creature on his own. Easily susceptible to the very same burn, and other removal spells that you are complaining that Stoneforge Mystic itself is susceptible to. The only difference in the case of Mangara is that you can protect it in two different ways, via Karakas, and Mother of Runes. Why should it be so different for Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull? I mean yeah, you have 1 less protection card than you do with Mangara, but still thats the same number of protection spells that the vast majority of the cards in your deck are going to have (unless they are legendary creatures).
So the question I asked earlier? Why run creatures that are susceptible to burn and other removal at all? Seems to still be a valid question if your argument against running Stoneforge Mystic alongside batterskull is simply that it can cause you to get 2 for 1'ed via burn targeting the Mystic. Same thing can happen to just about every creature in your deck. It is logistically impossible to protect against every possible contingency. I just prefer personally to play superior cards instead of inferior ones. And it doesn't get much superior than the Stoneforge + Batterskull interaction.
EDIT: Also, the reason that Progenitus lost favor likely had a large part to do with the fact that Survival of the Fittest was banned. Not because the combo lost favor.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.
Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.
Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.
In that order?
Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.
EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.
Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.
I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.
I know the rules fine. I just wanted to double check my facts. Sorry if I actually conduct debates intelligently and try to make sure I am correct about what I remember from about a year ago. Prior to this past Saturday I hadn't played a game of magic in about a year. That doesn't change the fact that when I see superior card interactions I recognize them for what they are.
Also, the most optimal way to use Vial's ability is to not leave the creatures you vial in after the 1-drop slot open to removal in the first place. Usually you vial in a Mother of Runes the very first thing you do after playing the Vial. That way you can avoid situations like getting your Stoneforge mystic removed by 1 mana removal spells.
Quote:
I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?
What exactly would you call your entire argument against running Batterskull simply because Stoneforge Mystic "Dies to Removal!!!!!!!"
I don't know how else to explain your argument here. Anyways I have been up all night and I am growing tired. Time for me to call it a night.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
In that order?
Pretty much.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Pretty much.
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
Actually I run neither. My equipment setup always used to be: Jitte, Sofi, SoLaS (sometimes in the SB)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Actually I run neither. My equipment setup always used to be: Jitte, Sofi, SoLaS (sometimes in the SB)
I didn't ask what you run, I asked what you rated them as.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Dalkon: Did the deck you were playing have ports, karakas, and wastelands?
IF not, then that might be why you are missing the point. You may have reached 5 plains often enough, but if you are correctly using your lands as control, you really shouldn't ever have 5 mana (or 6 mana with a thalia out) to hardcast batterskull.
Instead of calling it an argument of "it dies to removal," try looking at it this way:
If she gets removed, you can still reliably hardcast the sword. It's not stranded. Also you can reliably re-equip the sword if needed. You cannot reliably do either for batterskull.
The swords are always useful in your hand. The batterskull is not.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Whoa, 2 h away and got shitstorm over here. I tested batterskull in 2 tourneys myself and i was really disappointed. Lifegain rarely matters, no evasion, and with thalia cost 6 mana to play. With porting and wasting its a really rare case to got 5/6 mana to spend on your main phase.
And if your opponent isnt really retarded mystic eats stop/bolt/dismember right away when you fetch batterskull. In good case you got mom to protect him but im not going to rely on that.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?
None of the Swords are good against Dredge and Reanimator. The game's often decided before turn 4. Sword of Body and Mind is definitely a blank against Dredge, by the time it would be coming online it might be passable against Reanimator, I mean Feast and Famine gives them a discard outlet for fatties too, so doesn't seem much better. I suppose the biggest edge I'd give Feast and Famine vs Reanimator is Pro: Black to bash through Griselbrand if you don't have Karakas up.
Versus Goyfs, Nimbles, Knights, etc I think Body and Mind is fine yes milling can add card types, Threshold or more land but the Sword also provides a Wolf that one can move the equipment too post combat for a invulnerable blocker.
Sword of Body and Mind is also a beast against Merfolk and Jace/Terminus control.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I tried Batterskull for one tournament only, it was a small one (probably about 15 people or so). I was very disapointed with it, and I tried it when it was first printed and now with Thalia (as stated above) it's much much worse now than ever before. Yeah sure you CAN mystic it in play, but you can't rely on being able to do that against most match ups. Also as stated above you are, or should, be using wastelands and ports to stall them or lock them out of the game. If you are doing that properly, you won't have more than 3, sometimes 4 land open to do things with. I agree that Jitte, SoFI, and SoLaS are the best choices to play in the deck main, and maybe Manriki-Gusari in side for opposing batterskulls. Also if you're worried about life gain, you've got SoLaS for that and it gets you a dude back. The list I play makes the choice to further deny my opponent resources with 4 Leonin Arbiter and the only cards in my 75 that search are 3 mystics. Also if you have Vial on 2 and Arbiter, you are able to make your opponent fetch, resp with Arbiter, and the paid a life and sacked a land for nothing since most of the time they won't have 2 mana open to pay for it.
As for the argument about anti-Mirran Crusader, that's a personal choice the way I see it. I prefer it over Serra Avenger for the reason that if you are going to hard cast the Avenger you won't be able to do that before turn 3 anyway, and it also give you another reason to take your vial up to 3 counters for Mangara and Flickerwisp. Yes it gets destroyed by removal, but the same removal gets Avenger save Forked Bolt and it doesn't fly, but have pro green which with any deck that plays green makes the match up better. It blocks Goyf, Ooze and KotR all day and swings through Hierarchs and other such things. Put jitte on it, you get 4 counters most of the time, and double activations from the swords.
Here's my list for a reference and it's served me quite well:
My list is as follows
Main Board:
2 Burenton Forge-Tender
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Risadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 PLains
Side Board:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker
I've not played it for a couple months partly because of Massacre, and Terminus does hurt too, but if you play around them it's not that hard to still put up a valiant effort. Also I've taken a break to play another deck with all sorts of tricks in it to switch it up a little. I've been playing D&T exclusively for about a year and a half and it was hard to cut the 4th flickerwisp because of its potentally insane and game breaking plays (especially with vial on three and mangara) The Forge-Tenders I put in with the prevalence of red in the format recently and it also stops Progenitus in its tracks when you recur it with SoLaS. I've been thinking about giving this another whirl for the next Tournament I go to instead of playing MUD which I've played for the past 2 months or so.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of removal to, you know, remove things? Saying a creature dies to removal is like saying you can play an instant at any time--kind of an obvious remark, imo.
I too have found Skull to be lackluster in D&T, though I don't deny the sheer power of the SFM/BSkull combo. If we had the counters to back it up, I'm sure it'd be great in D&T--but we wouldn't be D&T if we ran counters.
And, sure, SFM is a weak 1/2, but she does so much for her 2 cmc: thins your deck, finds the right equipment to power up your dudes/protect them, gets that equipment around countermagic/Thalia, replaces herself in your hand so that you aren't losing card advantage; all in all, SFM is a brilliant card, perfectly suited for D&T. That's why I run 4.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of removal to, you know, remove things? Saying a creature dies to removal is like saying you can play an instant at any time--kind of an obvious remark, imo.
I too have found Skull to be lackluster in D&T, though I don't deny the sheer power of the SFM/BSkull combo. If we had the counters to back it up, I'm sure it'd be great in D&T--but we wouldn't be D&T if we ran counters.
And, sure, SFM is a weak 1/2, but she does so much for her 2 cmc: thins your deck, finds the right equipment to power up your dudes/protect them, gets that equipment around countermagic/Thalia, replaces herself in your hand so that you aren't losing card advantage; all in all, SFM is a brilliant card, perfectly suited for D&T. That's why I run 4.
Nobody is really saying "... dies to removal." It's just what one poster (now maybe two?) was assuming people were saying.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I play batterskull as my 61th card because sometimes its good to hit the 'easy button'...
Granted, I usually grab SoLaS with SFM, but against controll with a mother of runes in play? batterskul please...
Okay, batterskull can be overkill sometimes. In that case just grab the other sword... 1 card in a 60 (or in my case 61) card deck won't hurt you that bad... (then again, overkill is underrated)
And if burn spends a burn spell killing your SFM because you grabed batterskull... well that's 1 less to the head.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I wonder what is the matchup vs pox like.
The primer doesn't talk about it and I never played it before.
I'm by the way going to a tourney where there are plenty of and can't imagine winning without a fast vial
