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When you put it in that reference grim tutor just seems dumb and a nice inclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
However you could just as well burning wish for empty the warrens.
What other situations would you want grim ??
I suppose I might as well pick one up its a good card for the deck. Plus theres always grim long in vintage.
Grim lets you effectively wish for a past in flames with a tutor already in trash for the guaranteed kill. Also lets you wish for ad nauseam the rare times when that's relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by pingpong
You are lucky with your pairings today. You didn't have to face both CBtop decks in the DE. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
Yeah, I got BUG twice, Merfolk, and Mono Black Pox/discard/atrocious matchup. 16 cantrips really shined against all that discard. Are you on ANT also?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I played this list:Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
Round 1 - Mirror (2-0) his build is worst, and I got more disruption + Grim Tutors
Round 2 - UWr Miracle/CBtop (0-2) can't break the lock, then Surgical on Abrupt Decay after nuking 2 CB's, then Canonist to lock me out permanently
Round 3 - UWb ThopterTop (1-2) Top + FoW are annoying to fight through
Round 4 - bye. :\
I could definitely see that being true, good point. Is it good enough to justify a slot just for those matchups though? I am genuinely asking, because I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
Also, what percentage of the Show and Tell metagame is Omni and what percentage is Sneak? Is it 50/50? I'm just curious what peoples' experiences are against S+T decks. Is Karakas good enough against them?
I played Prosak's 75, which for reference is
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Karakas
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island
I've 4-0'd the last 2 Legacy Dailies with his list, playing against bug twice, sneakshow twice, merfolk, reanimator, zoo, and pox. The deck feels very good, the extra cantrips help you play around discard by letting you float business on the top of your library more often and also make the deck operate very smoothly. The trade off is that you're about a turn slower protected, but that doesn't really matter against the decks you want protection against. The gemstone mines help splash both red and green, I was skeptical initially but they let you keep island+gemstone and cast your black spells unlike island+trop.
The sideboard isn't ideal, I think the 2 Slaughter Pact could become a second Karakas and a third Chain of Vapor. The Carpets are pretty sweet against BUG, they let you play around all of their soft permission and let you cast the business spells you topdeck. I've been boarding out lotus petals for them because the matchup is super attrition-y and a 1-mana boost isn't usually what you need to win the game.
I'm not sure either, but swarm is really good against U/W as well, it in conjunction with abrupt decay lets you stop the top floating force method they have of beating you and the counterbalance method they have of beating you. Its also good against reanimator, and for a tournament like a grand prix I would expect to get paired against Show and Tell and Merfolk several times which makes the sideboard slots worth it in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I've been boarding it in because you have discard to stop their initial combo, meaning that a topdecked show and tell is likely their way to win. Karakas stops that. I think sneak show is more popular because it's more resiliant to discard because both combos are 2-card, but I could be wrong. I'm absolutely not a Show and Tell player.
It's good enough vs them. If you can disrupt their hand and take out the Omniscience, they have to rely on fatties. If you sandbag the Karakas, then you can totally blow them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Thanks for the input. Have people actually tried Empty against a wide range of decks? It is pretty difficult to beat Deathrite Shaman with Past in Flames on the draw, and I am wondering if we need the Empty to steal games.
Hi guys n gals;
I'm interested in this deck - but I'm curious.
Seeing as a lot of lists here have no creature fodder, why is Cabal Therapy so prevelant in so many decklists?
Why not Thoughtsieze or Inq of K.?
CHeers.
Interacts favorably with Gitaxian Probe, Discard spells in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I run Cabal Therapy in a couple other decks - I'm not convinced this is all there is to it.
I understand that Therapy is better than Duress & Inq., because it's not limited to certain cards.
But you can miss, even after a Probe - it's by no means a certain discard with cards like Brainstorm being so common.
Is the life-loss from Thoughtsieze the main reason Therapy is being run instead of Sieze?
mmmmm, sometimes you can't win with warrens, and in that situation, without the grim, burning wish is a dead draw (not always, but a lot)Quote:
Originally Posted by pingpong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
how have the 2nd tendrils and IGG been working out for you?
They have been "meh". I would bring in the 2nd Tendrils when I needed to grind against UB/x or CBtops; but it has been un-phenomenal. IGG similar reaction. I have since swapped the Tendrils for ETW, then decided that I would rather play TES (again...). They would be better served with more useful SB slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Sorry, but from my point of view it's one of the freaking best discard-spells you have with this kind of deck! Neither Seize nor Duress are able to take more than one card from opponents hand (therapy won couple of games for me against double Flusterstorm/Pierce/Force-Hands). If they respond with Brainstorm you simply have to check if the coast is clear, you don't have to hit with your therapy. Many players pointed out that the best way to play therapy is to imagine that single card at any given situation/timeframe which would be backbreaking for you....just name this card...you don't have to hit!Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Btw.: For me it's a common situation to grind out games with my UBr-Ant-Wish-List. Even a Late-Game EtW after an attrition-war with for example two flashbacked therapies is devastating for your opponents.
I love Cabal Therapy - and I agree it's one of the best discard spells out there too.:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
Thanks for explaining DarkJester
Oh, I just shared my experience with the card. But the explanation is not my train of thoughts, if I remember correctly this had been written by Richard Feldmann in his "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu"-Article.
I'm not sure at a large tournament like a GP or SCG or whatever, but online the Omnitell version is much more popular. In general, I think we have a pretty strong matchup against the plain Sneak & Show version, and a very close matchup against the Omnitell version. Omnitell is a little more likely to run more Lotus Petals/Sol Lands, so sometimes we don't have time to duress them before they go off. For what it's worth, I think in general the Omnitell version is also better positioned in the Metagame - most decks have some sort of plan to deal with Emrakul/Griselbrand in the main/sb, but Omniscience is much harder to deal with, and being able to win without attacking is a pretty huge advantage against the U/W decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Karakas isn't horrible against Omnitell, I tend to just board into a ton of discard and Karakas, and, unless they get the nut draw, you can just attrition them out. Karakas is very good against the Sneak version, as they don't usually have time to assemble Sneak + 2 red mana + Emrakul needed to kill us through it.
I'm considering maindecking an Empty the Warrens as it just seems so good against RUG and BUG decks. I'm on basically Timo's GP list, -1 Chrome Mox +1 Island. Any suggestions on what to cut from the main for it? Or tell me why it's a bad idea?
Also, how does this seem for a sideboard for GP Denver in a 3 BW list? Anything I'm obviously missing here?
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Grim Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infest
I cut AN from my list for EtW. it has been fine. but i also main 2 grims and no other IMS other than petals so AN is kind of sub par.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uranium
I don't know if this is relevant for you, but with this sideboard you fold to leyline of sanctity (with the exception of EtW, but against a field with terminus, batterskulls,EE's or even elephant grass this shouldn't be a viable option). I would try to squeeze in 2-3 chain of vapors...
Just my 2 cents....
Edit: Why don't you try something like this to work with:
(Explanation: My Maindeck plays 8 Discard-Spells and three Probes and I found it a rare scenario to wish for an additional discard-spell)
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage /Surgical /Extirpate
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Pyroclasm/Infest/Meltdown/Reverent Silence (Meta-Slot)
As you mentioned you cutted the singleton C-Mox from your MD for an additional Island, but why not replace it with the Trop to make room for another card of your wish in your SB? (I know, Trop is not exactly the Land you want to see in your opening seven... I'm just brainstorming here)
I've done extensive testing on MTGO in 2man queues (money on the line). Here are the results:
I sorted the games to see how my FoW winrates were.. not pretty - 40% win rate. 4 losses to CBtop (expected).
The series went thus:
Match Winrate
58.6%
Game Winrate
53.5%
Games Played
71
Matches Played
29
Code:Games Wins Losses
Sneak Show 2 0
BUG tempo 2 0
4c Deathrite 2 1
Esperblade 2 1
Cbtop 0 2
UWr Cbtop 0 2
UWb Cbtop 1 2
EsperBlade 1 2
BUG tempo 0 2
UWr Cbtop 0 2
ANT 2 1
Enchantress 2 1
Zombies 2 0
Dredge 2 0
ANT 2 0
Elves 2 0
Affinity 2 1
Enchantress 2 0
Junk 2 1
Zombies 2 1
Affinity 2 0
Junk 2 1
NO Elves 2 1
Affinity 0 2
Zombies 1 2
ANT 0 2
ANT 0 2
ANT 1 2
Junk 0 2
I'm glad to see people posting statistics like this. Data is always useful, but not the most important thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
- How did you feel about each matchup? Specifically, did you feel like you really had to struggle to win, despite the raw numbers looking good?
- What list did you play? 16-cantrip / Grim / Wish / other?
- Do you have any thoughts about individual card/sidboard choices?
I'm surprised you didn't see any Thresh at all. That's something I'm worried about for GP Denver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Sorry if I missed a previous post but what's your list?
Empty the Warrens has been testing very well for me over the last few days. It is especially good against some of our bad tempo matchups like RUG Delver. It forces your opponent to board in some bad cards like Engineered Plague or Rough // Tumble if you beat them with it game 1. The interaction with Cabal Therapy is actually quite relevant, and I have won several games by flashing back Therapy in testing. Overall the card gives some nice options to the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
i'm just talking without testing, but i think that ant is a little slower than tes to use etw in the maindeck
It's not built very well to Empty on turn 1 (although it obviously happens occasionally), but turn 2 Empty is easy and is very strong against certain opponents. It helps to have Empty in your deck against Daze/Pierce Tempo opponents when they keep durdly hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
In non-wish Grim Tutor versions w/ Empty in the board, against Daze decks, do you just swap Empty and Tendrils? Or do you take something out and run both?
The only decks that you're reliably racing with ETW over Ad Naus maindeck are some RUG draws and some BUG draws...
Against BUG, Ad Naus is probably just better -- you can't reliably use the Graveyard, they have a lot of discard, they're 1-2 turns slower than RUG, and they don't run burn (so you can safely Ad Naus down to 1, and you'll usually have time to get 3-4 lands out and still have a fairly healthy life total). Not to mention, they run a lot of blockers and have life gain, so ETW isn't getting there that often.
Against RUG, ETW is probably better...so you have to decide if the slightly better RUG matchup is worth making all of the random matchups where Ad Naus is pretty good (any deck that doesn't really aggressively attack your life total, any discard deck, any other combo deck).
I think with this deck, everyone learns pretty quickly that Ad Naus with 0 floating isn't really what you want to be doing...so they over correct and just never cast it. Especially post board, I tend to cast Ad Naus a fair amount (probably 30%ish of games), as it's a very high percentage kill if you can float 2 mana, and it makes it so we don't really care that much about GY hate.
I cut a Grim Tutor for a ETW, I don't think you should cut Tendrils from the main pretty much ever.Quote:
In non-wish Grim Tutor versions w/ Empty in the board, against Daze decks, do you just swap Empty and Tendrils? Or do you take something out and run both?
This is what I thought, I always get a little nervous not having access to Tendrils, but I just wanted to make sure that wasn't just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
I've tested EtW against both tempo decks and, IMO, it only worths against RUG, for some reasons:
-They usually put more pressure on board, if they start with Delver maybe it's the same, but is not if BUG starts with Shaman or Thoughtseize.
-They have lightning bolt (Main reason).
-Mostly every RUG has stifle, in BUG decks is not as common. Stifle can also put kind of pressure on you since you'll have some trouble developing your manabase.
-BUG has more ways to control your PIF plan (shaman+GY hate post board).
Even against RUG I side out Ad nauseam (which I almost never use unless I have no other choice or I'm in a pretty good shape which is not common at all), goblins are not my main plan, they're usually like an emergency button for hard situations. We must also be careful with them, because they often bring EE for Etw or blowing up our 0cc Artifacts (this can happen mostly against BUG when you lay LED in order to protect it from discard).
I must say I found BUG a much more harder matchup than RUG, not the control build, but the tempo one is like a nightmare, free counters+wasteland+stifle+delver+discard+shaman...:frown:
I'm playing the UB version, only splashing red for PIF+Etw and green for SB cards.
I have actually found Tempo BUG to be a little easier than tempo RUG - it's usually very obvious when they're holding up stifle, since they run a lot of sorcery speed disruption, and I generally think it's a little easier to play around Thoughtseizes than spell pieces and snares, and BUG runs a lot more dead cards against us than RUG (decay, often other removal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
Part of the reason I don't mind the BUG matchup is there are no surprises - you can tell when you're dead by just counting the board, so you know exactly when to try and combo. Against RUG they have burn, sometimes a mongoose gets thresh out of nowhere, etc, so sometimes we just die without even testing their hand.
I also haven't really been impressed by shaman when I've seen it in play - there were a few awkward matches where I forgot it's abilities and accidentally unthresh a C-Rit or accidentally die to Ad Naus, but now that I'm used to playing around it, it's very slow, and it's still pretty trivial for us to be thresholded on turn 3, and it presents essentially no clock. It's better than mongoose from RUG, but not by that much.
If people are actually playing well with Shaman, it is a lot better than you are giving it credit for. It really messes with the Past in Flames plan if the opponent knows what they're doing.
Is anyone from the thread going to scg Columbus? I
I'd like to meet other ant players
Shaman doesn't seem like much of an issue. All of their tricks are on board, just don't walk into them. Hymn with Daze/FoW to back it up does seem like a problem though.
Does it not SEEM like an issue, or has it not been an issue in your playtesting against good players? In my 20+ hours of testing against a skilled BUG pilot, it is sometimes a frustrating card to play against. Notice I said "skilled" because Shaman literally does nothing if your opponent doesn't realize that it can be an important card in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Sometimes you don't care about it, but other times it forces you to find an additional tutor for Past in Flames loop while you are being killed and never obtaining threshold. When you win with Past in Flames, there is often a specific set of cards that you need to loop to reach maximum mana, maximum storm, and to find the tendrils. The Shaman can really mess with this. Now it's obviously not a card that you "walk into"... But not all hate has to win on the spot...
There's not much point in talking about Shaman, cause there isn't much you can do about it other than power through. I will say that Shaman gives another reason to have Empty the Warrens in your deck, because it makes Past in Flames a little more unreliable in a matchup where it would usually be very good.
I think Shaman is a very good reason to not have EtW in your deck if you're cutting Ad Naus for it. When PiF is less reliable, Ad Nauseam is pretty good, especially since most of the Tempo BUG draws are quite slow, and Ad Naus is usually live on turn 4+. When I run EtW in my SB, I don't even board it in against BUG, as we usually don't have enough cards in hand against them to make a winning number of goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I really agree. If you're on the Burning Wish build, EtW plan is perfectly fine against BUG, but with the infernal+grim build you have to cut Ad nauseam for it, and I've found Ad Nauseam plan pretty good against BUG as I said before.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
By the way, what do you guys think about xantid swarm plan?, now I'm still running 4 on my SB, but I see some people who are cutting them for Thoughtseize (talking about Infernal+grim MD build of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
i am down to 3 swarm, the 4th one is kind of redundant and you only really want the 4th for fish and show and tell.