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I've found the 2nd Ooze unnecessary, maybe a 2nd Thragtusk? Also I think 4 Hymns would be a bit too much. A well placed Therapy would usually make it close to dead :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstatic_Conch
I think you would also want to fit in at least 1 Diabolic Intent. You kind of lack a sac outlet. Of course, worse comes to worst you can Abrupt Decay your own Explorer, but really there are a lot better ways to use that card. :)
I feel like i wanna try to scapewish deck for a change, I did play it before but grow tired of it quickly because of this combo meta here. (especially many renimate players)
But feels like latley more fair decks has been present so I want to give this a shot
few questions:
I've read many times that you needed that deed for the win but didnt draw it. So many times I've seen that, yet most lists only run 3 pernicious deed. Why?
2x pithing needle in sb, against what?
Why no pulverize in SB anymore? I loved that card
Appreciate answers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
The list in my sig is slightly out of date -- I'll fix that this morning. The Needles -were- there as a hedge vs Sneak/Show and vs Liliana of the Veil -- because if you're losing to Jund, it's because of that skank. In practice, though, the Needles were very subpar and they were pretty quickly removed. Those two slots are currently (back to) the 3rd REB and a Collective Voyage as a wish bullet, to turn your Burning Wishes into ramp spells when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by litenkatt
The issue with the 4th Deed is that sometimes, you'll just hate life for playing it. Most hands are better with a Deed in them. However, sometimes you'll play vs decks where the Deed is just completely irrelevant, and you'll be annoyed. High Tide or Sneak are good examples of this. Even against things like Jund or Esperblade, where you want Deed, you never want 4, because you shouldn't have to sweep that many times. Sometimes you don't hit one and you die because of it -- I'll grant you that. But I'm okay with accepting that sacrifice because -not- playing the 4th Deed improves a lot of other games where you might have lost had that 4th Deed-slot not been whatever you would cut for the Deed.
Pulverize is out of my sideboard because nobody in my area is playing MUD anymore, so it just isn't necessary. That's a personal-meta thing -- if you've still got decks in your meta that Pulverize is good vs, then by all means run it. It's just not necessary in my meta atm.
------
Latest Scapewish testing: I really want to find room for a 2nd Primal Hunter. Just not sure where to make that slot right now =/ Also, Collective Voyage continues to impress. I may be specifically looking for situations where it's good too much, but basically, Scapewish has one slight chink in its armor, where it can die to its own inconsistencies -- this is the "heavy Burning Wish" draw -- you don't get many ramp dudes, or a Top, or anything. You just get stally stuff like Huntmasters or Thrags that you may or may not be able to cast, you get a few lands, maybe a Deed, and then a Burning Wish or three. Collective Voyage in the board helps solve this draw, and makes the deck actually horrifyingly consistent. Just remember the Golden Rule of Scapewish: if it doesn't have green mana, don't keep it. The sole exception is basic nonforest + Top, which is debatable as a keep depending on the matchup.
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Edit for value:
Upon examining Scapewish carefully, I can't find any slot maindeck that I am unhappy enough with to cut it for the 2nd Garruk. Huntmaster is ever so slightly worse in the metagame overall right now, but when you run into an unprepared opponent, he just runs the game by himself -- and these things tend to go in cycles, so he'll be "better" again before too long.
Now, the question is, should I stick with the 1-of Garruk with no way to tutor it, or would I be better served by making that slot into another GSZ option? I've attempted both the 4th Top and the 4th Deed in the past and actually been disappointed by both of them, so I think that isn't the way I want to go.
Question the second: Ruination in the sideboard, or might Plow Under be better? Alternatively: we can just accept that we're kold to land-based strategies (hi, Glacial Chasm. I see you lurking there), and move on with our lives. As I examined the list while updating it for my sig, it occurred to me that Ruination has been largely subpar overall. Even vs 12post, it doesn't seem like it happens that often -- and even when I'm specifically going as deep on basics as I can, Ruination is usually killing at least a couple of my lands too, which hurts. Furthermore, I don't like that Ruination is so narrow. It's not like Tsunami which is a good general purpose wish at any stage of the game vs blue.dec. Sure, you might nab a few of their Tundras -- but they'll probably nab a few of your Taigas too, and that sucks. So, I'm currently considering Plow Under for that slot, because that's a good option vs literally anyone. It at the very least delays any problematic utility lands, and it seems like it should be a gigantic kick in the nuts for 12post, although it doesn't just straight up kill them like Ruination does.
Thoughts?
I couldn't find anything better than plow under to do what you're intending, but will taking out two lands really beat those decks?
Edit:
Also: While I love GPH, I'm not sure if adding yet another high-cost card to this deck is a good idea. As you've seen sometimes this deck just dies to its own manabase.
3rd: I would love to have a fourth top in the deck! First turn top off of a basic land is the best 1st turn play we can make. However I'm still trying to learn the deck so I won't be making any changes until I'm more comfortable with it.
I haven't played too many games against the little green men, but of those it was a pretty even split (maybe slightly in my favor?): with the recent SCG 1st place finish, what are people's thoughts on strategies pre- and post- board against Goblins? One of the guys I played against mentioned thragtusk recursion is pretty bad for them...and obviously board sweepers, but I feel like goblins can recover even from that (recruiter, matron, kiki-jiki, etc).
I dont think the last SCG open will effect the meta at all. But Goblins is usually pretty easy, although I have lost to them in the past. Its all about the sweepers and haymakers. We cant do too much to stop ringleaders card advantage proactively. They will always draw one, or a matron, even if we rip their hand apart. Remove their important goblins like krenko or siege gang, but for the most part, just make sure you kill the lords that give them haste. Warchief is scary. He enables their explosive plays where they dump their hand and then swing with it in the same turn.
One big thing to keep in mind. They can use 2 basics often better than you can so be very careful setting off explorers. Only do it when their hand is clear of matrons and ringleaders.
If your playing scapewish, you can combo-race them and wish for pyroclasm if needed.
Punishing fire, its a grind fest, but one you should win eventually. Bait out their wastelands, because you will need your groves.
Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).
GB, you have the most room sweepers maindeck (damnation+deed) and room for EPlagues in your SB.
BUG, goblins might actually be a rougher matchup but I dont know to be honest.
Which version of the deck are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by benofzongo
I just played against goblins on Saturday. boarded in the fair package (sorin, elpseth, batterskull) and a thoughtsieze, humility. I rectored in the humility then dropped the batterskull. and that was game.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Sorry, forgot to mention I run GB at the moment.
Not entirely true. You need a clock otherwise if they land a Siege-Gang Commander you run a risk of getting pinged to death. We're definitely favored once a Moat comes down, but they can get there.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I haven't run GB in a long time, but seems like Hornet Queen could be helpful, especially if you can recur it. Problem is living long enough to get it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by benofzongo
The winner of yesterday's SCG open splashed both green and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
He has 2 Krosan Grips in his 75 and no way to filter for them. Killing someone, even from 10 life, with just a siege gang is pretty hard. All we have to do is remove the commander. Goblins is a matchup we should be pretty happy to have with this deck.
With GB in particular you should have 6 Deeds/damnations in your 75 and maybe an engineered plague in there too.
Agreed. Don't get too cocky, because they can definitely blow you out -- but it's a favorable matchup overall. I'd estimate around 60/40--65-35 range. From the Rector version, they're also HORRIFIED of Baneslayer. It's actually kind of funny. Take that, Piledriver, you tool. They can usually Incinerator her away if they have one, but if they don't, she'll carry the game on her wings.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Basically,the way that we lose to goblins involves something like the following sequence:
t1 Lackey -> t2 Stingscourger/Incinerator on our Explorer, swing with Lackey, drop something arbitrarily stupid (SGC, Krenko, Ringleader, Warchief, etc).
However, most Goblins pilots won't see or won't use this line. They'll assume that it's better to hold their removal for the deck's bombs rather than try to get in underneath us. Just watch out for that line and you should be okay. Any hand with a castable Explorer is a snapkeep in the matchup -- ideally you want Explorer, a Therapy, and a sweeper.
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@Evan -- I'm assuming you're going to Mythic this weekend. Are you qualified yet, or do you need to do well at this one to make it?
I'm actually working on the primer again. HoneyT -- did you manage to day 2 Denver? I have no data from Denver at all to add to the historical section. I know I missed Day 2 by one round at both GP Indy and GP Atlanta, but I don't have anything about Denver or any of the European legacy GPs. Update me, people.
Also, I need updated, current lists for the following archetypes:
G/B (pref. Qweerios or HoneyT, as they had the best lists for straight G/B)
GBW - Rock and/or Pod, if anyone is still playing those versions. If I don't hear back from anyone, I'll move them to anecdotal
BUG - Tao, is the link in your sig for Jace Fit updated? Also, Viridia, post your latest, please.
Omniscience - if the Europeans are still playing this, I need someone to get me a list.
PFire - HoneyT, if you have any changes/updates to make to your list, post them. Otherwise I'll use your list from SCG.
I've got Rector, Scapewish, and I'll probably throw in a Deadeye list, too. I've come to the conclusion that Deadeye is basically roughly the same as Rector or slightly worse, and pretty much abandoned it since it didn't do what I wanted it to do (beat combo easily). But, I think it's probably still worth putting a list up for it.
Also, if anyone of ye who provide me lists want to take the time out to write a blurb about your card selection choices, how the list plays, pitfalls to avoid, matchup data, and so forth, that would be fantastic and would save me a ton of time on getting this thing finally finished. I can do it myself if I have to, but it'll take me a while and I can't promise 100% correct answers due to my lack of experience with every subarchetype.
I'll update my Sig with my latest Jace list aswel as the Biomancer list i've been playing around with lately.
Personally i haven't been doing anything on the 4-color Omniscience list anymore, so i can't help you there :)
Edit:
Biomancer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Lb3NZRFE#gid=0
Jace: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Lb3NZRFE#gid=0
If I show up but dont top 8, Ill be at 23 points. I NEED another top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I kind of want to play a punishing fire list but I might just stick to my guns and play scapeshift because I haven't had much time to test punishing fire yet. It has seemed really strong so far though.
Below is the list I have been using and liking, theres one slot Im unsure about and will change around meta dependent.
23 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze // Acidic Slime // Garruk, Primal hunter #2 // Abrupt Decay #4 // Maelstrom pulse #2
SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Acidic Slime - Mostly here so I dont autolose to Glacial Chasm
Note, there's no carpet of flowers, and theres 2 reasons for this. 1: No one plays UWx control at Mythic for some reason. 2: I have more lands/ramp-dudes maindeck that most lists so boarding out 1-3 exploreres doesnt really hurt.
My maindeck beats every fair deck, so my SB its meant for combo. Against just about any combo deck, I bring in 14 cards.
If I run scapewish, I think Ill run the same list I ran at mythic just -1 Wood elves, -1 Huntmaster or thrag, +2 Abrupt decay. And my SB would go back to 3 REB, 3 Mindbreak trap. Whether or not I run pulverize/ruination will probably depend on if anyones playing MUD and if you are loaning out Turbo eldrazi or not haha!
TheArchitect, what do you feel the punishing fire build adds that scapewish doesn't?
@Evan, I'll do what I can for you. Like if we get paired up in the last round or something, I'll scoop you in. I qualified a longass time ago. I would recommend sticking with Scapewish -- in fact, I'm seriously considering running it myself. I think that there's going to be a heavy Esperblade backlash against the superfluity of combo decks that we've seen up there lately. Alternatively, I might build RIP Miracles and just troll everyone. I actually wanted to play BUGStill, but I already promised Steve that I was going to let him use it like a month ago :| 12post will not be in attendance from my car, so you don't need to worry about it on my end.
@Viridia -- Thanks! I seriously doubt that I'll have the primer finished by the time you get back from Strasbourg, so hopefully we'll be able to add a couple of Day 2's to our history :P
Thats the question I have been asking myself. I think the answer is consistency. The land base is much better, and you have more real SB cards to bring in, as well as MD target removal to deal with any kind of threat or hate. With punishing fire you give up the raw power of being able to turn 3 people while they scupt their hand or cast goyfs. And you give up the ability to win a game where you have only lands, zero cards in hand, and low life while your opponent is at 30 and has a jace, bskull, and etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I am also not sure which deck is better against combo. I imagine p-fire is because of its real SB cards. But being able to turn wishes into IB, thoughtseize, slaughtergames, pyroclasm or even a scapeshift is really valuable.
Mythic is full of TES, S&T, and then like 30 unique decks. There's usually only 1 guy representing RUG and esper in the room and the rest is stuff like MUD, pox, painter stone, burn, fish, BUG Still, 4c Deathrite, etc. So its a strange meta. I have to be able to not always lose to combo decks, and not fold to random rogue decks like 12 post or MUD.
Thanks Kevin, I would do the same for you if you needed it. I think you are right about scapeshift. I should just stick to what I know does well there. Im glad to hear there will be more UW decks and less eldrazi! Once this years round of invitationals runs up, or if I go to a Jupiter I think Ill start running other stuff (GB, punishing fire, etc).
I think that the PFire build vs ScapeWish comes down to something very simple: sideboard. PFire is absolutely able to have "real cards" in its sideboard to answer combo. The tradeoff is in flexibility. There are, very few situations that Scapewish can get into that it cannot subsequently get out of. It weakens its combo matchup a bit to accomplish this, though.
I think that both versions are equally capable of shredding fair decks. Punishing Fire rips up board states and ensures that nothing sticks other than hexproof, and is effective at fighting 'walkers. Scapewish just kills people if they don't have sufficient interaction because it drops must-answer bombs all day. The real question, I suspect, is whether one is willing to trade off added flexibility and the presence of a legitimate combo kill of your own, in order to better fight combo opponents.
A few things:
Re: Ruination vs Plow Under
If Turbo Eldrazi is your big concern with that slot, going with the card that just kills them is wayyy better even at the cost of a couple of your own lands. They can always Crop Rotation away one of the Plow Under targets anyway and that's super miserable. Plow Under is certainly better against the other grindy fair decks however, but I don't think you need it to win those games most of the time. Also the mana difference can certainly be a problem vs those decks.
Re: PFire vs Scapewish
TheArchitect and Arianrhod pretty much got it between the two of them.
If this ever happens playing PFire, you played wrong or kept a terrible hand. PFire absolutely rapes the Stoneblade decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
The biggest pull towards playing Scapewish is you have the "oops, I win" button. This comes at the expense of a sideboard able to beat combo decks and a slightly weaker manabase.
As Arianrhod said, with practice, either one should trounce any kind of fair deck. If you're fine losing to combo, Scapewish is perfectly reasonable, otherwise, you're going to want a real sideboard.
@Arianrhod:
I also missed day 2 by one round in Indy. I was on GBw at the time. I was 5-0 in Denver then lost all three win-and-ins to make day 2. Untimely mulligans and a few Griselbrands and Emrakuls later and I was out =/
I haven't played it in awhile, but the GB list in my signature is within a few cards of what I would play today.
No changes at the moment to PFire. The SCG KC list is still awesome. It'll change with the meta, but right now, it's where it should be.
Also I'll be more than willing to help you write about some of the subarchetypes you haven't played.
Still cannot abandon the idea of playing BUG nicfit with main FOW...
What you guys feel about this list?
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Curfew
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
19 Blue cards main now which is kinda how low i'd ever go to play fow main :/, however kinda unsure about counterspell since UU cost..
Any suggestions?
Suggestions? Don't start a Nic Fit deck by chopping Explorers and Zeniths
If you go for blue snapcaster should replace Whitness completely
@ HoneyT
That sideboard. Jesus. Do you board in 15 cards vs. combo or something? :D
That list looks super sweet, gotta test it out. One question, though: What land would you replace if you absolutely had to cram Stronghold in, and is it's absence more of a "doesn't do much, land might as well be colored" or a "the lack of coloured mana actively makes the deck a good bit worse" kind of thing? /recursionaddict
Sorry, forgot the fact you should stick to the tradition here and inetsad of actually developing something new ask for suggestion of a decklist that just recently won scg open except you replaced one maelstrom pulse with an abrupt decay. Now those list could actually use some suggestions no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Btw whole intention was the interaction of curfew with the strong enter battlefield creatures commonly used in nic fit therefore both 2x witness and snappy.
Don't think you want to keep replaying Zenaga or Thragtusk over and over because they'll likely win by hitting once the battlefield. Zenaga without having Tusk already in play is underwhelming and feels like a Win-more. If you want a big blue card drawer, try Consecrated Sphinx. I would max the synergy of snapcaster/jace (bluecount) and spot solutions like Abrupt Decay than running a parallel angle with Whitness to rebuy Creatures and deeds, which both don't interact with MegaMan. That said, i still prefer the synergy of Abrupt Decay, Whitness and Zenith for a stream of destruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by drfontaine
Reducing the copies of Zenith and Explorer doesn't make any sense because they carry the concept. Chopping LED's and Dark Rituals in TES would be a similar mistake
I played a GPT to finals with p-fire nic fit with 15 anti-combo cards in SB. I conceded the finals though since i'm not going to Strasbourg(?) so he could have the 3 byes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Also that tournament I _ONLY_ played against combo decks(serious).
Reanimate
"New" reanimate (tin fins?)
Cephalid Breakfast
Sneak and show
High tide
So yeah, I think p-fire with anti combo sb is the best way to go if u want to win against combo. It's boing as hell, granted, but better than losing
Dang, I was hoping the Gruul fuse spell was going to be a viable wish target...
Armed {1}{R}
Sorcery
Target creature gain +1/+1 and double strike until end of turn.
/ <Fuse>
Dangerous {3}{G}
Sorcery
All creatures able to block target creature do so this turn.
Uncommon
Hi! Newly regged user. Lurked for a while. Been playing Magic since Ice Age. Nic Fit is cool so now I join the discussion!
I think this is a very narrow minded way to think about deck design. Every card in every deck is there (or at least SHOULD be there) for a reason. Now obviously both Explorer and Zenith yfill important roles for Nic Fit as an archetype but automatically dismissing any list without 4 of each seems dubious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As for drfontaine's specific list I can definately see reasons for trimming both numbers. The overall curve of this list seems lower than most Nic Fit builds and does not seem as dependant on ramping as other lists which needs something like 6+ mana in order to win because this list plays 4 Jace that can be cast (as evidenced by many other archetypes) without explorer ramp. Also with Snapcaster and Curfew this list can interact more than usual in the early stages of the game. Vs some decks, as most here seem to realize, ramping with explorer is not even what you want to be doing, and in the late game Explorer can often be a bad draw. 3 seem fine since you need to make sacrifices somewhere in order to be able to play FoW with a reliable enough blue count and I feel Explorer is a fine trim. Similarily Zenith seems trimmable as this list doesn't play that many targets as some other lists, Explorer isn't as crucial as I have already explained and with Brainstorm and Jace can be found more reliably.
I also don't think Zegana is win more and even with just a Witness or Snapcaster in play, drawing 3 card's should be a strong enough play to solidify the gamestate in your favour. Playing a Zenithable threat (that is also blue) I feel is MUCH better than playing a Consecrated Sphinx even though that obviously is also a very powerful card (I don't like Empath fwiw). However my concern is that Zegana still might be a bit underpowered and that something like Primeval Titan would be better. Still the issue of the bluecount is very relevant.
As for Witness I think it is very strong in this list with Curfew, Brainstorm, Jace etc, both for returning them and for blocking. Snapcaster is strong as well but I wouldn't want to play too many as there aren't that many targets and he can't be Zenithed.
All in all seems like a solid list with better game 1 against combo than most other Nic Fit lists I've seen but maybe it does give up a bit much vs other archetypes?
Further discussion would be interesting!
Is Sarkhan Vol ever considered in the PFire version or is it tooo cute?
His +1 speeds up GSZ target, hasty Primetime sounds cute.
The -2 Ability looks usefull in different scenario's. Like S&T drops Emmy and passes turn.
And his ultimate is kinda like Garruk PH, but are smaller and have evasion and combined always deal 20 damage unblocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfontaine
List looks interesting, however i agree that cutting Explorers really hurts the deck. Most games that i can't get started quickly enough is simply because of not getting Explorer online.
Only 1 Spotremoval is alos really pushing it, you're relying on Deed or Counters to get everything done is really difficult.
Snapcaster Mage also isn't very amazing, considering that there are only 10 spells in the deck you'd really want to flashback, aka Counterspell, Ponder, BS, Curfew and the 1 Pulse, however, i do like the idea of Curfew for Witness Shenanigans.
I'd try starting with something like :
-1 Ponder
-2 Snapcaster
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Veteran Explorer
+1 Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Vendilion Clique/Venser, Shaper Savant - these also work really well with Curfew, and are badly needed for the blue count.
That leaves you with 17 Blue cards, which should be enough for 3x FoW to work.
If you feel you're light on Blue cards, i'd probably cut the Sensei's Divining Tops for either Coiling Oracles or more Cliques/Vensers. Having 1 Coiling Oracle makes zenithing for X=2 something you can actually do aswell if needed.
That said, here's the list i'm probably taking to GP Strasbourg:
Quote:
23 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Creeping Tar Pit
12 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Thragtusk
2 Eternal Witness
1 Terastodon
8 Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Abrupt Decay
6 Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
7 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated
1 Tamiyo, the Moon's Sage
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Force of Will
1 Memoricide
1 Flusterstorm
2 Negate
1 Damnation
The mainboard feels quite good, it has a couple of spot removals to get you through the early-game if you can't ramp up, the Strix' are amazing Recurring Nightmare Fodder and the best blockers/planeswalker protectors ever :)
The sideboard is mainly geared towards beating Combo, and an extra Damnation vs Tribal/Aggro, so that you can also Gifts for either 4x Removal or Deed/Damnation/Witness/Recurring Nightmare.
Haha it depends on the combo deck. Against High Tide absolutely! Against TES it's a mere 12 =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
In all seriousness, this is a good a time as any to talk about my sideboard seeing as how there's quite a bit of discussion about it.
This is the basics of the deck: Rape the fair decks. Lose most game 1's to combo. Do not lose games 2 and 3 to combo. That's it in a nutshell. The fact of the matter is my Punishing Fire list is so good against the fair decks, it allows me to dedicate my sideboard space to combo where the help is greatly needed. That being said, Legacy is a very broad format. Sideboard space is valuble and each slot needs to be thought out carefully. The cards need to overlap if possible to strengthen other matchups to make the most efficient use of your space. I'll give a quick rundown of my current sideboard to explain what I mean.
2x Thoughtseize - Great against combo of all varieties and also used in fair matchups when I board out some number of Explorers/Therapies.
3x Surgical Extraction - Obviously good against graveyard decks, but very good against other combo decks too in conjunction with the discard spells. You can really make it difficult for some decks to win by making them discard a key card then getting rid of the rest of them too.
2x Slaughter Games - Similar to Extractions, these are also great against Miracles as an uncounterable way of stripping their very few win conditions.
3x Red Elemental Blast - Insane against Show and Tell and High Tide as far as combo goes, and great against the fair blue decks as well. Nuking cantrips out of Storm is perfectly fine when it's backing your discard.
3x Carpet of Flowers - This one is actually mostly for the fair decks in which I board out Explorers or want the additional ramp vs RUG, but again serves multiple purposes as it also is great against Island based combo a la High Tide, Show and Tell, etc..
2x Mindbreak Trap - This is the only card in the board that doesn't really serve multiple purposes. The maindeck is so favored against the fair decks that we don't need to spend much sideboard space to deal with them. This allows us to play a few narrow cards that just kill some combo decks. Storm is the most prevalent combo deck where I'm at, so Mindbreak Trap is where I'm at. This slot could just as easily be dedicated slots to Sneak and Show in some metagames as that's my list's current biggest weakness. There's not much of it in my meta, so I'm not dedicating any slots to it. It's very hard for them to win post-board if they don't find Leyline of Sanctity anyway.
TL;DR: We kick the shit out of fair decks. Use most sideboard space for combo.
@ Zombie:
As for the Volrath's Stronghold, as much as I love the card, it's just not needed right now. The colored requirements in this deck are a big deal and Kessig Wolf Run is a way better colorless land. I wouldn't cut a land for it, it would be a spell slot or the 61st card if I felt the deck needed it.
@ Bobmans:
I've considered Sarkhan Vol. He just doesn't seem like he does enough. The deck doesn't play that many creatures to make his 1st ability that great. He doesn't really do anything on an empty board, where Garruk just takes over the entire game. The second ability would be cute if you're guaranteed to kill them or have a Phyrexian Tower or Therapy in the yard, but again doesn't do anything by himself. Overall he's just not worth it. I'd rather play the more powerful planeswalker.
@ drfontaine:
That list certainly looks interesting. It's certainly worth toying around with, though I agree with the initial changes Viridia suggested.
@ Viridia:
Good luck in Strasbourg! Make sure to keep us posted!
- My advice would be to not ever reduce the numbers of GSZ and/or Explorers below 4. I have done it before because I thought I needed the room and it was always a mistake. GSZ is nothing but a blessing for this deck: In the opening hand it is the difference between a keep and a Mulligan and in the late game you are happy when you topdeck it. There is no way in hell you can find 57 better cards than GSZ.
This is an Explorer deck so play 4 of them. It also lets you maximize the number of Explorer/Therapy starts. Explorer and GSZ also have synergy: if you have both you can make a big GSZ instead of using it for Explorer.
- Imo Sarkhan Vol and Prime Speaker Zegana are both bad. Planeswalkers have to defend themselves AND create value. Sarkhan does neither... And 6-drops have to be good even if they hit the board by themselves because that will frequently happen in a deck full of Deeds in a format full of Removal and Countermagic.
I'm going to try a Deathrite shaman instead of a 3rd top for the scg this weekend. Either that or cut a thoughtseize or the starved ruskla.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
For Rector question you have to ask Arian. I haven't played with it in a long time.
@BUG players: What are your experiences with FoW in the SB? Against TES/ANT it happened relatively frequently that I would have FoW + Negate/Mindbreak Trap and they would probe+Therapy me. Then they could take the Trap/Negate with Therapy and kill me with a dead FoW in hand. I also don't want to bring in Mindbreak Trap and Negate against Elves but then I don't have enoguh blue cards to support FoW (which I would want to stop Glimpses).
I think of cutting it for a mix of Thoughtseizes and Carpets.
Taking everyones suggestions into consideration regarding drfontaine's BUG list I tinkered a bit with it and came up with this:
CREATURES (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Coiling Oracle
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
INSTANTS (9)
4 Brainstorm
2 Curfew
3 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (5)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
LANDS (21)
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Island
SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chill
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Force of Will
The list has a blue count of 20 maindeck. I am not a huge fan of Coiling Oracle but it's a blue card that is Zenithable at least. 21 lands with 2 Tar Pit might be pushing it but I think that playing Primeval Titan is the most reliable but still powerful threat when playing Zenith and is really strong with 2 Tar Pit. I cut Snapcasters due to low target count. Strix I think really puts this list together as it is a blue card that is quasi removal which allows you to hopefully get away without any Decays, Pulses or otherwise and instead stall with Strix/Oracle and Curfew shenanigans until you can Deed.
Tamiyo was added to be another blue bomb but might not be good enough. 4 Jace seems really good for this list. I am skeptical about the complete removal of Sensei Top (which was made to get blue count satisfactory) but might be possible due to 4 Brainstorm and 4 Jace, which both don't have the best synergy with Top.
I kept 4 Explorer and 4 Zenith but I still think that for this type of list (with fewer top end cards and potentially less need for the ramp) it could be possible to trim them for more blue cards or maybe put in some Tops again.
I have too little experience with BUGfit to really make good judgements about the mana base so maybe I have too few duals, maybe their numbers should be swapped, maybe tweak the amount of basics, and maybe add another land total.
For the board I put in an extra Clique and Venser to pad bluecount vs combo as well as the 4th Force. Chill was added in spite of bad synergy with Deed to give some potential vs Burn strategies but is probably not enough. I also put Thrun in the board as my experience is that he is mostly a roadblock rather than a beater and with 4 Strix and Oracle you already have plenty of that in the main, but hexproof can be really strong so I like having the effect in the 75.
Thoughts?
This is a big reason why I dislike FoW in the board and playing less than 19-20 blue cards maindeck when playing it. It is also why it is so hard to build a deck with both Brainstorm and GSZ, Nic Fit or not, since it puts so much constraint on the overall deck design. If there could ever be a Nic Fit list with say 22 blue cards maindeck with FoW, still have 4 Therapy and healthy amounts of Explorers and Therapy, and enough good threats for Zenith then I think it would be a strong contender for "best" deck in Legacy, even though that is obviously a very abstract and contextual concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I really like this one for Rector versions and maybe for others too:
Varolz, the Scar-Striped 1BG
Legendary Creature - Troll Warrior
Each creature card in you graveyard has scavenge. The scavenge cost is equal to its mana cost.
Sacrifice another creature: Regenerate Valroz, the Scar-Striped.
2/2
Just one more Mana than Starved Rusalka (if you count the activation cost) and it gives much better value. Scavenging Explorers for one Mana is solid and at some point you might just Scavenge a Titan. Not insane but solid and might make the difference in grindy games.
Strongly agreed. The only thing that I don't like about him is that his decision trees are going to be very complex. Rector in particular is based heavily about graveyard recursion due to the presence of, and ease of access to, Recurring Nightmare. So by scavenging dead creatures, even things you might not usually want to get back ever like Explorers, you can end up harming yourself in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
That's not saying that I think he isn't playable or any such -- just that we can't willy-nilly scavenge freely like we might want to.
I'll likely start by testing him alongside Rusalka and see if/how often the 1 extra mana makes a difference. I know I've (rarely) been sufficiently up shit creek mana-wise that being able to Zenith@1 and then pay for Rusalka's sacrifice on my next turn has sometimes been a thing. I'll also want to evaluate how often I scavenge in real game scenarios vs how often I want to keep options open for Nightmare.
Note: I think that this guy is insane for the more creature-heavy aggro-based G/B versions of yore....the ones that used to run like Strangleroot Geist and were much more aggressive in general. I'm not sure he's enough to resurrect the subarchetype, but it's possible.
I loved it. I've played your BUG list in the past couple of local tournaments and I've had FoW win me a match vs. Aluren and one vs. TES. I did lose a match to ANT because of the situation you describe. I have two more local tournaments before Milwaukee where I will continue to test it out. If I don't play FoW, it's very tempting to just play Scapeshift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao