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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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I am not going to go into too much detail, or why I feel you have a few misconceptions about this particular match, because the biggest problem here is that most Landstill players simply cannot give up the concept of a traditional Landstill deck. They will play it regardless of whether it is right or wrong to play it, and then make up excuses to justify this. And until people acknowledge this, there is little point arguing specifics.
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
I lol'd. You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel. Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.
Just for referance this is Hanni's UBw counter top walker deck
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U/W/b WalkerTop
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
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// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
TE]People with that idea apparently don't understand that Mishra's Factory in fact IS a creature upon activation, and therefore the opponent's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts ARE relevant creature removal. Just sayin. [/QUOTE]
I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
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Jace TMS is retardedly good, and those who think otherwise are only fooling themselves, Cid. No point in trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced.
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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You can't just stereotype an archtype of players and say they don't know how to reinvent the wheel.
Why can't I? I see buttloads of discussion going on in this thread about classical versions of Landstill, with very little to no discussion elsewhere.
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Just because your not content with Landstill's redundant meta game style shell doesn't mean that other people face the same problems. In fact what generally happens here is some new guy comes in and asks questions in the middle of a heated discussion, and because we are all so super sweet we detract from the conversation instead of just telling him to read the thread.
It has nothing to do with not being content. The metagame is constantly changing, getting faster and more powerful with every new set they release. Yet, for some reason, Landstill looks almost exactly the same as it did 4 years ago.
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Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
How does that have anything to do with my response to the discussion? Someone said that they like how they render their opponent's creature removal dead by not running creatures, giving them virtual card advantage, but they run Mishra's Factory. It doesn't matter whether or not you can deny the opponent said removal spell or not. I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Mishra's Factory, I think you misunderstood my point.
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Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I've answered the question of how powerful Jace is numerous times. In fact, I've answered tons of questions that you've asked numerous times, and I just don't see the point in trying to convince you of anything anymore.
Still want an answer? Jace wins games. Just how Elspeth has the ability to come down and seal a game up, Jace does the same thing. If you look at him as a slow Fact or Fiction, you're looking at him wrong. If you need to draw cards, Jace can do that. If you have a Counterspell in hand but no creature removal and need to get that menacing Tombstalker off the board, Jace can do that. If you're currently in control of the gamestate (the board is clear) and you need to drop a wincon/win the game, Jace can do that.
Jace becomes alot more poweful with CounterTop too, since you can fateseal away anything that CounterTop can't answer. Then again, you have your million reasons why Counterbalance, the premier control spell in the format, sucks in control decks.
Anyway, to cut a short discussion short, keep playing old school Landstill. If it wins you games, that's great. I like to pop in this thread from time to time and toss around my opinions for those that may value them. You don't have to agree with anything I say, and you can rebuttle me until your face turns blue if you'd like. I'll still love you, Mossivo.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I find this rather amusing given your current sig.
I think this is a poor question, and I think a lot of people say this all the time. "What matchup does this card improve." With Jace? How about every match? But people will ask this question with every deck and every card on these forums. It's almost like people believe
X cards for aggro
Y cards for combo
Z cards for control
and voila! I can't lose to any of them! But whatever happened to simply playing a strategy that is inherently better than my opponent's strategy, and beating him that way?
But this is beside the point anyway. The question isn't what does Jace do for Landstill. The question is why am I not playing Jace in my blue control deck. This card is revolutionary, and blue decks should be built around Jace because it's just that good.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
QFT. Main reason why discussing the evolution of control in the Landstill thread is like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the large majority of control players, or those who want to play control, go with Landstill.
It's unfortunate that more Landstill players aren't willing to try my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck (or similar variations) instead of Landstill.
People innovate, but most innovation is full of fail. I for one agree that Counterbalance is probably the most viable control element in Legacy, but finding the proper "overall" strategy to fit it varies, depending on what you are trying to achieve. I've gone through a million different blue control decks featuring CB, Intuition, Gifts, Thopter Foundry, PW's, etc., and found maybe 4-5 rough lists that were worth pursuing.
On trying something new: Duh. Mankind isn't a fan of change, and he sticks with what works (or at least what he perceives works). Legacy players are still human.
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
I lol'd again, Usually when you activate factory your 100% certain, or forced to activate it in the face of removal. It's risk reward; but if your activating it to win the game then clearly you have control of the game state and should be denying opponents spells while putting them on this "clock."
...
Will you ever answer my question? If Jace the mind sculpter is so good in landstill; what matchups does it shore up to prove that its a better replacement.
I also never find myself activating Factory unless 1) shit is going south, and I need a blocker or 2) I want to win in 10 turns, because you obivously failed.
I think Rico Suave's answer above me answers the Jace statement perfectly. It's not that he shores up matchups, it's that he's The Goddamn Mindsculptor. He's so good, he's worth running, regardless of gameplan if you play control and play blue. His versatility and his ability to win the game in 6 turns while providing disruption is nothing short of amazing. Brainstorm doesn't shore up any bad matchups, but it's so fucking good that I'll run 4 in every blue deck possible. The same philosophy applies to Jace, albeit in smaller numbers.
BUT, I usually side him out against anything playing red, and against Merfolk. At the end of the day, he's 4 mana, and a blue card, who dies to Red Blasts, Bolts, and can be really hard to resolve against mana-denial. Though I suppose the same could be said about other 4 mana bombs that we run, he's probably best as a 2-of, with support from Elspeth and Moat/Humility/WoG/Firespout.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.
I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.
My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.
Clearly we all have strong opinions. I am not saying i'm right or wrong; but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such. This is where I think that classic Landstill list that everyone talks about really is stronger. In smaller tourneys clearly you can get away with murder. And I love it. Anyways I'll see you on Team Bad Guys Mana drain.
-Love MoSs-
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
I don't really care to argue about something that menotinous either. I can't deny that it does end up in some of my lists as well, and probobly will continue to do so.
I am currently working on a very strong toolbox list that I have selected a jace and a fof as singletons, and I think this will really be the deciding factor. My idea landstill is a nassif 1-1-1 build with so much utility that your always drawing well or brainstorming sub par cards out, and then siding them out post board.
I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
My main concern with Jace is that the matchups I really want her in are matchups that i'm already god damn rediculously favored in. This doesn't warrent playing her. In the control matchup where I probobly am second most likely to play her, I think elspeth is just that much stronger. The same really goes for top-fact or fiction argument. While I LOVE top, I find that I can never squeeze it in comfortably.
I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
kiblast
I'd really like to see your toolbox set-up, and how do you plan to get different things at the right time. Fore example an Englightened T. toolbox is pretty simple, but I fail to see how could you set up a toolbox wich includes different singletons such as a planeswalker, artifacts ( at least Crucible comes to mind) and sorceries/ istants (Wog and Fof).
I realized that Jace is too strong to have it out even in unfavored MU. For example AggroLoam is an unfavored MU, and I still want to see him in lategame. Merfolk is a though one if you don't pack Firespout and I still want to see him. Surely Elspeth is that much stronger, but Elspeth doesn't protect herself and you by hiding the best cards/ answer your opponent will topdeck.So I still play him on a 2x regular basis. I agree with you regarding Top. As much as everyone like saying that you can't play Legacy control without playing Countertop, I feel that it doesn't fit UWx.
I may give it up, but not just yet. I'm going to be doing some testing with it first.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Ok, now i'm testing 2 Fof, and I have to say that in UWx (I play UWb) they can be really, really beastly. Sometimes they just pitch to Will instead . With 24 lands i rarely miss the 4th landdrop, but I hate to see 4cc's sitting unused in my hand. So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Hey all, just thought I'd share that I won another local tourney with my UWR-scepterstill (knappstill).
I'll exclude my list to save time, but I'm sure you can jump back a few pages and find it. So here's a mini report.
R1 U/G Natural Order
Game 1 I land a scepter and a chant in the face of Progenitus and some irrelevent creatures and he concedes.
Game 2 I stick a turn 4 Peacekeeper, and since he wasn't playing white, I figured he had no removal, so I let him get Progenitus and an army of shitters before I cast Jace TMS and kill him.
R2 Mono U Merfolk
Game 1He turn 1 drops vial, then standstill and lords me out.
Game 2 He has the same start, but I throw a Peacekeeper out on turn 4 with Island and Plains in play and he concedes.
Game 3 I end up losing through no fault of my opponents, but the cards weren't in it for me this game.
R3 I get paired against my friend who I had built the same 75 for, we're both 1-1 so we decide to play it out. I win in a quick 2 games with much more experience w the deck and the mirror.
R4 Zoo
Game 1 I deal with his rush of early dudes and land crucible + waste to take his red sources away before I get burned out, and Mishra's Factories do the clean up.
Game 2 I kept a hand with EE, 2STP, BEB, and lands. Needless to say I won.
R5 I'd with Natural Order Elves Survival
Top 8
I get paired against the doofus merfolk player from before, but he has other obligations and leaves. How nice?
Semifinals
I get paired against my friend from round 3 who managed to squeak in the top 8 at X-2. He just concedes this time lol. This top 8 is seeming to go pretty well.
Finals
My opponent asks me to split, but I've never gotten anywhere in life pussyfooting around and letting people have prizes they didn't deserve, so I decline. He's playing Canadian Thresh. He has no early action other than a Tarmogoyf around turn 6ish which gets STP. We just play draw go until I have enough mana to cast Orim's Chant, JaceTMS, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and kick them both up to 5 before passing the turn. He scooped soon after.
Game 2 He again kept a hand with no pressure at all, so I was free to sit back and play lands until I wanted to do something. I took some Trygon Predator beats eventually, held him under scepter-chant for a few turns, then landed a Jace and killed him.
I took home 4 minty FOW for my trouble. Happy new year's to everybody!
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
kiblast
So i was thinking if UWb could play Esper Charm instead of Fof. Esper is particularly interesting for its first ability, for example to have an O-Ringed Jace back on the battlefield. Even the instant discard effect could be interesting in some situation. I think we should give it a try.
I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...
EDIT: Working on a possible list with the charm...
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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but one of the elements of playing legacy for a long time is that you inherit a keen sense on how redundancy is soo much more important with large tournaments and such.
You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.
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I dig this idea. 3 mana instant speed card draw, possible instant speed hand dump, and a 3cc CB removal spell. Although I can't think of many enchantments that see play now to remove. Sylvan Library, Choke, O-ring(?), and that's all I got. But still, 3 mana card advantage at instant speed could be could. Just a damn shame, the mana requirements...
I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.
For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Regarding Esper Charm: I don't think that it can fit into the place of FoF, as it doesn't dig deep enought, compared to Fof, plus the mana required to cast this aren't ideal (do you really want either Scrubland or USea on the field by turn 3 /5 ?). As for the flexibility; do we really need more ways to beat one of our best mu's?
As for Landstill in general I believe that this year looks promising to us, the meta looks very friendly towards big fat 4cc bombs.
This will be the list I'm going to play , at least for the next months:
4 Tundra
1 Glacier Fortress
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
1 Humility
1 Enlighted Tutor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
Side:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormnonds Crypt
2 Vindicate
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
2 Peacekeeper / Preacher
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
You can have redundancy without the classic shell, though.
I like Esper Charm, I've seen it used to good effect. It's a bit restrictive in cost though.
For those running Top, seriously consider Predict. It costs 2 mana, instant speed, and is a virtual draw 3.
Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).
And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.
Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).
Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Esper Charm won't cut it in a meta of Wastelands. I doubt you will hit UWB consistently on turn 3. If you want to draw spells past turn 3, then FoF is INFINITELYbetter. (dig 2 for UWB or dig 5 for 3U??). The disenchanting effect is decent, and the discard rarely useful (aka win-more scenarios).
After thinking about the mana requirements, I have to agree with this. Nailing CB is cool, but not cool enough to justify UWB.
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And as good as Top + Predict it, people always fail to realize that Top + Standstill is even better (digs far more with less mana). Top before Standstill strengthes Standstill. The issue becomes the debate whether Standstill > Predict, but to not digress from the thread, the answer is yes because we are in the Landstill thread and whether you agree/disagree if Standstill is a good draw engine, that's for a topic in another thread.
I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill. Really, it's pretty hard to argue against Standstill as being the best draw engine in blue control (sans Jace of course, but he's not reliable as a draw engine). Using 2-3 Predict in addition to your draw lineup while running 3+ Tops is reasonable. Card advantage is card advantage, and Landstill doesn't run any engine cards (like Intuition> recursion type of plays). Plus, 2 mana for situational card advantage is still 2 mana for card advantage. The situations when Predict is good are quite common.
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Chii was the list the same list as your GenCon list with Faerie Conclaves? I've been picking up UWr Scepterstill over UWb now that the Vengevival craze has died down. I'm trying to tweak a list with 20 blue counts to support FoW while running Helix over Fire//Ice. Fire//Ice despite being a beast on Scepter, isn't doing much for me. Helix has been promising since it takes out 3/3s (i.e. Zoo and Lord'd Folks). This is highly critical for me. When I used Fire//Ice, I was usually using it as a burn in most situations (situations where I Ice'd I'm either winning more or hopelessly losing). Helix ensures that I keep the board under control since Bolt-damage takes out quite a lot of relevant target where Fire//Ice could not. Finally, Helix gives me more stability, 3 life point is quite critical, and if you stick it on a scepter, it's as overpowered as a Fire//Ice (kills faster and puts yuor life total to a very safe zone where you can start ignoring most things).
I'd be lying if I said I knew anything about Scepter combo's, but wouldn't Lightning Bolt work just as effectively, for R instead of RW? Against Wasteland, this is highly relevant. Is 3 life really worth the extra mana? On a Scepter Helix is obviously superior, but as a stand-alone card, Bolt looks to get the job done just fine. Also great against T1 Birds/Hierarch/Lackey/Nacatl. Just an idea.
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Anyway, I'm still tweaking the ratios of blue:non-blue and the removal/counter/draw slots for this build. Recently I've been thinking for the non-sweeping approaches of Landstill, you really need every card to maximize its effect, to me, Helix being able to bolt for 3 and gain 3 life has more value than Fire//Ice which either wins-more or does nothing if you're losing to Goyf/Knights. I could be wrong, but that's what I felt with Fire//Ice from testing. It definitely didn't clunk up FoW which Helix is currently doing...
Extra Paths? I agree that KotR, Goyf, War Monk, and other fat men are much more threatening than things that Bolt/Helix can solve (sans Lackey/Nacatl). Path is way better in the mid-range matchup also, which is a weak point of Landstill (like The Rock, and Bant).
It doesn't stop the blue-count problem, but no blue card is ever going to substitute for effective spot removal. For what it's worth, I don't run any Wastelands in Landstill, so Path is always a top choice for me.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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I don't think Hanni is talking about removing Standstill.
In this deck? No. I meant that before I started looking into Esper Charm, I'd be looking into Predict (for the builds with Top).
However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.
Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.
Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).
In classic Landstill, Standstill + Factory is fine, because the deck is focused around that interaction. In a CounterTop control deck, Predict becomes a superior draw engine.
Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
While I agree that Standstill has major problems, we also have to live in the real world and realize that CB has major problems too, and both of the problems are infact similar (Vial decks, for one).
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However, I'm still of the viewpoint that Landstill is a dying breed. Playing blue based control in Legacy without CounterTop is wrong, and once you start building the deck around CounterTop, Standstill + Factory is no longer good enough. My control deck was originally a Landstill deck and eventually evolved away from it.
I think I've addressed this before, but again, playing CounterTop to maximum effectiveness requires building your entire curve around it.This is fine and dandy if you intend to be swinging with low-cost, efficient dudes, under the protection of CB. But trying to kill a swarm of goblins or fish requires cards on the upper end of the curve. In addition, the most powerful creature control cards with a lasting impact on the game available to control players are at 3-4 mana. I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a viable heavy control build with CB (trust me, it's not), but it does force the CB deck to make significant concessions to the curve.
Besides all of the above, I'm going to repeat that Standstill and CB both have the same problems: Fast draws and Vial decks that make both enchantments irrelevant. Control needs to find a way stop early game assualts, while still maintaining a solid, reliable lategame strategy that doesn't fold to pressure on the board (Standstill and CB both suck in this situation).
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Running Factory itself forces the deck into a weaker and less stable manabase (since the Factories alone are 4 nonbasic colorless sources, not counting any extra chaff like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Tolaria West, etc). One of the most important aspects of a strong control deck is a stable manabase; being unable to cast bombs like Elspeth because of manabase problems is /fail.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, if you run Standstill, you either run Manlands or Vial. Since we're Landstill, we run manlands.
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Secondly, Standstill requires that the opponent has no pressure on the board, making Standstill a liability; it does nothing for you when you actually need it (when you're behind).
This fact is undeniable. The idea of the deck is to never let your opponent get too far ahead without having a reset plan, and then drop a Standstill when the coast is clear and win. Sometimes this plan fails or is voided (Vial). When this happens, we tend to lose. It comes with playing the deck.
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Unfortunately, I seem to be only one of few that feel that way about control in the current format, but maybe that's why control has been a dying breed for some time. I think once people start to trend away from Landstill and more towards CounterTop based control decks, control will start doing a little better in the format. CounterTop control is just positioned much better. Don't get me wrong, Supreme Blue with 4 Goyf and 2 Clique has done consistently well, and it is also a CounterTop control deck, but I'm of the opinion that Elspeth/Jace and no creatures is the better route for control.
Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.
Also, I'll be dropping a primer (hopefully with the help of two other competent guys on the source) on a control deck in the next few days in the N&D forum. It's not new, but I feel it died way before it's time. So I hope to see you in it Hanni.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
@Metalwalker
Yeah, it was the same as my GenCon list, except the SB was slightly different. I ran 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 REB, 2 BEB, 2 Descendant of Kiyomaro, 3 Peacekeeper.
As far as the thoughts about Lightning Helix/Bolt, I actually used to play Bolt in a very early iteration of the deck, but a simple 3 damage isn't worth the slot that it takes up. Helix however is pretty sweet, but I couldn't bring myself to replace F/I with it. Even when the Goyf's/KoTR are out, F/I can buy you a valuable turn by tapping them, or dealing with them permanently on a Scepter by locking them out. I think the versatility to be able to take out a pair of X/1's or tap a big guy/ draw a card, or even cause mana issues by tapping down your opponents lands off a scepter is more valuable than the life/damage of helix, but you're certainly not wrong for wanting the helix. It's definitely arguable, but I would stick with Fire/Ice.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Your thoughts on improving control are not the only ones. I for one will always love playing Landstill, because I love playing real control decks. Even Standard control decks are just aggro decks with a higher creature curve. Nobody plays decks that are devoid of creatures nowadays, unless you play combo. Landstill is that deck, and is really the last of it's kind in Magic. Rant over.
So what is a real control deck?
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChiiMagic
@Metalwalker
Yeah, it was the same as my GenCon list, except the SB was slightly different. I ran 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 REB, 2 BEB, 2 Descendant of Kiyomaro, 3 Peacekeeper.
As far as the thoughts about Lightning Helix/Bolt, I actually used to play Bolt in a very early iteration of the deck, but a simple 3 damage isn't worth the slot that it takes up. Helix however is pretty sweet, but I couldn't bring myself to replace F/I with it. Even when the Goyf's/KoTR are out, F/I can buy you a valuable turn by tapping them, or dealing with them permanently on a Scepter by locking them out. I think the versatility to be able to take out a pair of X/1's or tap a big guy/ draw a card, or even cause mana issues by tapping down your opponents lands off a scepter is more valuable than the life/damage of helix, but you're certainly not wrong for wanting the helix. It's definitely arguable, but I would stick with Fire/Ice.
Thanks for the feedback. The critical issue with Helix is not being blue, and involves a recombination of blue spells to support FoW comfortably, and the question becomes does reworking the other spells affect the overall deck? That's something I have to test out. I think my meta isn't too suited for Fire//Ice. I do believe the buying a turn to tap down a Goyf/KotR where Helix would not have accomplished much either but I usually try to avoid those scenarios or simply view the situation as a losing-end to re-evaluate deck design/choices. In the rare instances Helix does nail down a Knight/Goyf and has a better chance at doing so if postboarded Relics come in.
But my main move towards Helix is the stabilizing ability. I often find myself needing 25-30 life total in a control game to not die. This could be a combination of Pulse/Wish, or pseudo-life with Scepter putting some advantage/turns. I'm focused on a Zoo/Gob/Merfolk aggro meta (a few Bant players) and I think Fire//Ice could do well, but I'm thinking testing Helix aint bad since it would be able to hit most Folks if they ever get double Lord/Coralhelm (shit happens with that stupid deck). And if Fire//Ice or Helix is on a stick, I don't think you need to worry about a Knight when he is constantly doing 3 less damage (3 from healing Salve) while you're blasting his face or his other x/3 threats off.
Peacekeeper is a beast (everytime I resolved it, my opponents called me a douche and lost over turns, some friends even try to Jedi-mindtrick me by wasting my tapped Tundra under Peacekeeper in hopes that I forget to pay W for him), haven't tested Descendant, but on paper, he looks beastly: 3/5 Lifelink (gain 3 life) non-REB'ble RWM with a 5-toughness. Out of curiosity, isn't Ethersworn Canonist better against combo/enchantress in most situations? Meddling Mage doesn't do much against REB/Wishes but CAnonist slows them down, not to mention really hating out Enchantress and buying time.
@Mana Drain/Hanni: To me, Landstill is landstill. It could be THE REAL control deck, or it could be Dreadstill or a Countertop/Supreme Blue or Hanni's list. To me, what is a control deck is the correct metagame deck that seeks to control the game. In this respect, it's sometimes great to take Landstill (in a Countertop, tribal and aggro-heavy meta) for a spin, or grab Dreadstill (Merfolk, fast-decks, combo-heavy meta), or Countertop (combo, midrange aggro e.g. Bant/Rock/Loam, non-goblin meta).
There's a ton of things that come into mind when playing control, and all I can say, Landstill is fine the way it is. It's the pilot that fucks up. And there are plenty of capable Landstill players in the world (check Top8s), it's a deck that's underplayed, and doesn't have a cheating factor like most Legacy decks do. More importantly, since it's a metagame deck, it's not really comprised of a specific gameplan except on always assuming the control role in the matchup it plays, and this causes a lot of piloting or deck-designing mistakes that fundamentally lead to bad results.
Personally, after my success/failures with Landstill, I always learn valuable lessons e.g. I should not have played Landstill in this tourney/meta, or I made the wrong card choices, or I wasn't familiar with this matchup and played it wrong, or I got greedy and wanted to establish aggression (resolving Jace) when the time wasn't right. The true-reason why I enjoy Landstill is the lessons I learn from playing the deck, and coincidentally, the Landstill shell is highly tunable (UWB Wishstill, Speedstill, UWg, UWr, Scepterstill, lists with Countertop, lists with Crucible/no-Crucible/Humility/no-Humility, Sweeper v.s. non-sweeper approaches), and since it's a metagame deck, this ability to tune a deck to changes awards good decisions in deckbuilding and playing. That is personally most satisfying for me in MTG, and is the reason why I still play the deck despite some tears once in awhile where the deck completely craps out ;___;
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
Thanks for the feedback. The critical issue with Helix is not being blue, and involves a recombination of blue spells to support FoW comfortably, and the question becomes does reworking the other spells affect the overall deck? That's something I have to test out. I think my meta isn't too suited for Fire//Ice. I do believe the buying a turn to tap down a Goyf/KotR where Helix would not have accomplished much either but I usually try to avoid those scenarios or simply view the situation as a losing-end to re-evaluate deck design/choices. In the rare instances Helix does nail down a Knight/Goyf and has a better chance at doing so if postboarded Relics come in.
C'mon. We are not playing a tempo deck. Fire/Ice is amazing in decks where the ''Tap you blocker to Time Walk'' effect is worth, i.e. Canadian Threshold. In Landstill, you tap their KOTR, and then what? Beat with a 5/5 Mishra's factory ? Or you try to topdeck a StP? Both Fire/Ice and Lightning Helix seem bad in Landstill. Lightning bolt however could be useful consideering the presence in the format of Lackey. But again, I'd rather play PtE as 5th and 6th Stp instead. What would you remove to play F/I ? EE? I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
But my main move towards Helix is the stabilizing ability. I often find myself needing 25-30 life total in a control game to not die. This could be a combination of Pulse/Wish, or pseudo-life with Scepter putting some advantage/turns. I'm focused on a Zoo/Gob/Merfolk aggro meta (a few Bant players) and I think Fire//Ice could do well, but I'm thinking testing Helix aint bad since it would be able to hit most Folks if they ever get double Lord/Coralhelm (shit happens with that stupid deck). And if Fire//Ice or Helix is on a stick, I don't think you need to worry about a Knight when he is constantly doing 3 less damage (3 from healing Salve) while you're blasting his face or his other x/3 threats off.
I don't run gain life effects. I think that 20 life total is enough to win a legacy game. Except against Burn, but you have a sideboard, no? and against fast decks (such as Burn) any other decent Life gain tech (such as Cunning wish into Pulse) is slow as fuck. Helix is not so needed considering that it forces you to always have both secondary colours on board. If I'd play Helix as a life gain source, still I'd play Cunning Wish into Pulse, and even at that point, I'd rather not play Life gain at all, simply because I think that Cunning Wish is too slow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
Peacekeeper is a beast (everytime I resolved it, my opponents called me a douche and lost over turns, some friends even try to Jedi-mindtrick me by wasting my tapped Tundra under Peacekeeper in hopes that I forget to pay W for him), haven't tested Descendant, but on paper, he looks beastly: 3/5 Lifelink (gain 3 life) non-REB'ble RWM with a 5-toughness. Out of curiosity, isn't Ethersworn Canonist better against combo/enchantress in most situations? Meddling Mage doesn't do much against REB/Wishes but CAnonist slows them down, not to mention really hating out Enchantress and buying time.
Agree on Peacekeeper.
Probably he's siding Descendant against Burn/Sligh/ WR landfall sligh. I don't think it is really helpful against Combo/Enchantress. In fact, I fail to see how could you side it against Combo/Enchantress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
The true-reason why I enjoy Landstill is the lessons I learn from playing the deck, and coincidentally, the Landstill shell is highly tunable (UWB Wishstill, Speedstill, UWg, UWr, Scepterstill, lists with Countertop, lists with Crucible/no-Crucible/Humility/no-Humility, Sweeper v.s. non-sweeper approaches)
Speedstill? What's that?
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
Speedstill? What's that?
It's Landstill with 23 lands, 0-2 Counterspells (3-4 Snares) and Vindicates + PtEs instead instead of the traditional Wraths and Humility. Also plays Kitchen Finks sometimes
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rico Suave
So what is a real control deck?
Real control decks as in board control + counters + draw spells + ~4-6 finishers + land. I think Standard best illustrates what I'm talking about: From 1996 (Wiesman style control) to the last year or so when decks like 5c Control and UW control took over. These decks started playng more and more creatures either as good walls, utility creatures, or both. Now decks like modern UW control play 6-8 creatures, in addition to 2-5 PWs, use 7-10 counters and maybe 7-8 draw spells including Ponder. Controls best strategy in modern Standard is play creatures too, just bigger ones. I feel like this is what Legacy is coming to due to creature power-creep and Wizards considerably toning down blue.
Control decks are turning into aggro decks with more counters and removal.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Didn't U/W Control from back in the day run Serra Angels?
I know Landstill used to run (and some still do) Eternal Dragon, and I consider Mishra's Factory to be a creature. So basically, U/W Control has always used a creature as their win condition, just some have better synergy than others (Factory + sweepers like WoG, etc).
If you want a creature-less control deck, my U/W/x CounterTop Walker runs 0 creatures. It's win conditions are 2/2/2 Elspeth/Jace/Shackles. If you don't mind running 4-6 creatures, Supreme Blue is likely the best out there right now (at least, based on tournament results).
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Wiesmans list didn't run 6 Serra Angels though, and he wouldn't have if he could. He only ran 2, and for a reason: because she was the best finisher after you had taken control, not because she beat all the aggro decks when she it hits play on T5.
Creatures have always been the kill condition of control decks, mainly because it's pretty difficult to actually win with a single non-creature spell. Eternal Dragon and Factory are only run because they serve as win-conditions once you have control of the game, while also being useful for producing mana or searching for land. UW control of 2009-2010 Standard ran 4 Baneslayer Angels, not to use as a post-control finisher, but because she is that good against aggro decks. And of course, she makes a fine finisher too. Sun Titan and Frost Titan serve much the same purpose: just being bad-ass cards who will pull you in from behind, while also conviently being 6/6 beaters or a 5/5 flyer.
I like the CounterWalker deck, and would be playing it if I didn't have a CB deck of my own on the front burner. I'm starting to think that Tarmogoyf really does belong in any deck that can produce green. Somebody, somewhere in the world, is brewing up UWg StandGoyfStill. And it's probably a beast.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Wiesmans list didn't run 6 Serra Angels though, and he wouldn't have if he could. He only ran 2, and for a reason: because she was the best finisher after you had taken control, not because she beat all the aggro decks when she it hits play on T5.
So you don't think this applies to, say, Morphling?
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
UWr Landstill won the Legacy Master at Magic League. This is the list:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wrath of God
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
More info: http://magic-league.com/deck/66741/l...Jacestill58781
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rico Suave
So you don't think this applies to, say, Morphling?
It does apply to Morphling, but again, Morphling was used more as a finisher, rather than a wall/"drop whenever because he's so good" creature. Most BBS/MUC lists only ran 2-3 Morphman, and dropping him when your opponent my have a counter or removal for him wasn't something players would risk. Under the most common and ideal conditions, you had a few counters in hand and 6-8 mana on the board when you would drop Morphling, making him a safe, reliable, 4 turn clock. The main point I'm trying to drive across is when decks start packing 4 Baneslayer, 2-3 Titans, 3-4 Wall of Omens, 2-3 Sea Gate Oracle, in addition to 2-5 PWs, you're just a bigger, slower aggro deck. It's just not the same anymore. But that's they way it is, so we gotta deal with it.
That list that won the ML tournament was certainly a good call from whoever piloted it. Nice 3x PKs in the board to shut out Loam, Folk, and Affinity.
Also, GOGO DEWDROP SPY!
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
It does apply to Morphling, but again, Morphling was used more as a finisher, rather than a wall/"drop whenever because he's so good" creature. Most BBS/MUC lists only ran 2-3 Morphman, and dropping him when your opponent my have a counter or removal for him wasn't something players would risk. Under the most common and ideal conditions, you had a few counters in hand and 6-8 mana on the board when you would drop Morphling, making him a safe, reliable, 4 turn clock. The main point I'm trying to drive across is when decks start packing 4 Baneslayer, 2-3 Titans, 3-4 Wall of Omens, 2-3 Sea Gate Oracle, in addition to 2-5 PWs, you're just a bigger, slower aggro deck. It's just not the same anymore. But that's they way it is, so we gotta deal with it.
That list that won the ML tournament was certainly a good call from whoever piloted it. Nice 3x PKs in the board to shut out Loam, Folk, and Affinity.
Also, GOGO DEWDROP SPY!
I think you might have a few misconceptions.
http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/DDB/a...rick_j_dec.htm
The description in that link says it all.
"This version of Blue Control differed from everything since Mana Vault had been legal in Standard for turn 2 Air Elementals... The goal here was to utilize Grim Monolith to exploits Blue's then-greatest strengths. Its best cards in-Block (excepting Windfall etc.) were not finesse counters but its raw muscle, namely Morphling, Treachery, and the bulk card drawing spells, which could themselves serve as finishers. Rather than worrying about holding back early game for Counterspell as Blue players may have historically done, PatrickJ.dec aficionados set up Grim Monolith early game in order to make their best cards faster and stronger. Racing with the third turn Morphling was a common game plan for this deck."
I can show you versions playing Masticores on top of Morphlings to simulate 6+ creature finishers too, but I think you get the point.
And what kind of control spawned after this? Dr. Teeth? Wake with their combo flavored kills? The Keiga tap out blue approach? Tron centered decks with their accelerated Sundering Titans? These were all prestigious control decks that packed a proactive game plan.
You think the Weissman style of play died out a year or so ago, I think it died out over a decade ago. Building an impenetrable wall of defense is simply not a winning strategy like it was in 94 and the game has moved beyond it a long time ago.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
TL DR; What I feel Rico is trying to say: To narrow your views on control to a certain strategy/playstyle is to miss the point of control entirely. If he does not mean this, I mean this.
In my opinion, a control deck is a deck that has a set of strategy that best answers the metagame. Inherently, a control deck is probably as anti-metagame a deck can ever be. Despite the fact that it has win-conditions e.g. Serra Angel/Masticore/Morphling/Jace 2/Factories, the bulk of the strategy is to still assume the control role before winning, that's the definition of control. And to assume the control role is to make metagame decisions, correct cards/strategies that nullify opponent's strategies/cards.
This is why I feel that to think of Landstill as THE CONTROL deck is wrong. I used to think in that light. When I think of control, I think of what tools can I use to best fight against the meta. Dreadstill has a set of strong tools that are strong against various matchups, but so does Landstill, Supreme Blue etc. Every deck is not impenetrable, there are weaknesses, there are strengths. Would Morphling be played in the Urza metagame if the metagame was different or other options were available? Why was Serra Angel played in Weismann's list? This is because for that particular metagame, Morphling/Serra Angel were the trump cards in the meta when combined with control elements e.g. StP/counterspell. After the board is under control, Serra Angel will beat the crap out of everything outside of a Shivan Dragon, which is dealt with StP/Counterspell. In the current Legacy metagame, to assume that a creatureless approach (Hanni's list) or a Dreadnought approach (Dreadstill) or a Landstill approach is the best answer to the metagame is entirely missing the point of control.
There is, however, an element of preference, sense of attachment, dislikes and likes for certain playstyles that drive into players into picking Landstill over Dreadstill over countertop over Stax etc. And I think this is one big reason why threads exists in the first place. Because a metagame is a metagame, there will be the best decks and anti-decks available, but other 'subpar' decks will still be discussed because of the inherent attachment, or the belief that these decks can be innovated and adapted to the meta. And this is the very reason I enjoy Landstill even if it is not ideally positioned in a meta. It's one of the few decks that has a ton of flex slots that can be changed to combat a meta, and is the reason why I tie it to be more of a control deck than other control variants. When you have a control deck that cannot shift to adapt, then it is a control deck efficient for a specific type of meta. One can argue Landstill sucks against most archetype so this is a moot point, but I don't believe the archetype Landstill sucks, I think it's mostly the pilot's mistake in card choices and play mistakes that account for its losses. At least I personally strongly believe that the archetype is strong, but a challenging one to master, and even more challenging one to build and pick the correct choice of cards that best answers the current threats. Since the deck has no 'cheating' wins, this decision of card choices become even more crucial to the success/failure of the deck.
I guess my post was even more TLDR than Rico's lol.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Somebody, somewhere in the world, is brewing up UWg StandGoyfStill. And it's probably a beast.
It's been done before and discarded.
Even StifleNought-StandGoyf.dec got rid of the fella.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I've never said that other, less-heavy control decks with a more prominent/earlier plan of aggression (Dreadstill, CB Goyf, Standard Faeries) were bad choices or subpar. In fact, both decks are great control decks, but I don't find them nearly as fun or similar to play as decks like Landstill. Landstill plays just like BBS (Vintage), Draw-Go (Tempest), Masti/Morph era- blue control, Mirrodin-era MUC, and TSP-era Dralnu UB. All these decks played for the control roll, and did use effective big men to help stabilize and win, but most weren't running them with the plan of dropping them ASAP. Accelerated Blue was an exception to the rule, and completely different from other blue decks at the time. Though, I guess you are correct in that it did start the trend of a more aggressive blue deck rather than the reactive, counter-everything blue. Trying to build an "impenetrable wall" stopped happening after Sligh decks became known, and to some extent, Necro-decks. The goals for control for 11-12 years of Magic were: Stay alive, Stabilize, Win. Do this by any means necessary. In my opinion, the goals now are "play a few counters, kill a few dudes, drop Jace/BSA/Titan ASAP, Win." Regardless of what you think, I was just expressing my opinion on the last page that I don't find these modern control decks to play like control decks of years past, and this argument is taking the thread way the fuck off course (you know, talking about Landstill, and how to improve it).
Traditional control (Weissman) died a decade ago. Cool beans. That doesn't change the fact that were all in a Landstill thread, not a CB/Dreadstill thread, and talking about how the deck is dying/not viable. I hope somebody else out there thinks that this is a problem.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I don't really follow your last post Rico:
Quote:
The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.
Then what is control? Dreadnought, BSA, Jace 2, Elspeth, Factories, Treachery, Morphling are simply objects, cards. Every phase in Magic has had its control decks, irregardless of the cards they play. Any matchup will have a control player v.s. an aggressor, even if it is a gob v.s. Zoo matchup. It is just that usually a deck like countertop/Landstill/Dreadstill likes to assume the control role because the strategy is based around that role. It has nothing to do with riding a Jace/Elspeth/Dreadnought/BSA/Squire to victory.
Certain control decks die out over time because its specific strategy is no longer viable e.g. Dreadstill died out for some time when Pridemage was printed and became the new hot creature alongside with Grips. Landstill died out when the meta was super combo heavy and flooded with Fish.
What is a REAL control deck to you then? (I'm kinda confused)
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Been testing a lot vs this deck with many decks but am not finding to many things that beat it. What are the typical bad matchups goblins and Merfolk?
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
goblins and Merfolk
The versions without Counterbalance?
Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.
There's others, but that's a long enough list already.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
The versions without Counterbalance?
Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.
There's others, but that's a long enough list already.
Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.
I never said those matchups were unwinnable. He asked what some bad matchups were, so I listed some bad matchups. Also, you're off your rocker if you think Merfolk isn't a bad matchup.
Oh, and before somebody jumps on me and says that Merfolk and Goblins are just as bad for lists with Counterbalance, I know they are. If you look in that list though, there's several matchups that Counterbalance significantly improves.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Landstill doesn't struggle so much because of specific matchups. It struggles more because of specific cards than it does matches. For example most people in this thread would say Zoo is a favorable match up, but I would say those people have never seen a Zoo player cast Price of Progress or Choke.
The other problem with Landstill is that it runs so many answers but not much of a proactive plan. The inherent problem with running a boatload of answers is that eventually you'll draw the wrong ones at the wrong time and your deck will self destruct. Or you can't possibly run enough answers to solve everything the metagame can throw at you.
Also, decks like Merfolk don't lose to the "1 for 1 them forever" plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
I don't really follow your last post Rico:
Then what is control? Dreadnought, BSA, Jace 2, Elspeth, Factories, Treachery, Morphling are simply objects, cards. Every phase in Magic has had its control decks, irregardless of the cards they play. Any matchup will have a control player v.s. an aggressor, even if it is a gob v.s. Zoo matchup. It is just that usually a deck like countertop/Landstill/Dreadstill likes to assume the control role because the strategy is based around that role. It has nothing to do with riding a Jace/Elspeth/Dreadnought/BSA/Squire to victory.
Certain control decks die out over time because its specific strategy is no longer viable e.g. Dreadstill died out for some time when Pridemage was printed and became the new hot creature alongside with Grips. Landstill died out when the meta was super combo heavy and flooded with Fish.
What is a REAL control deck to you then? (I'm kinda confused)
Control is just a term we use to describe a kind of deck.
When one person wants to discuss MTG with another person, we use words like control instead of saying "well, he ran 2 Elspeth, 2 Jace, 3 Counterspells, 2 Path to Exile, a mix of Vindicate and Pernicious Deed..." or whatever. It's like when someone says they drive a truck, the point is communicated efficiently and quickly with a short word even if it's not totally descriptive of exactly what brand truck he drives.
So when this guy says he wants to play a REAL control deck, then says that the control decks in Standard aren't real control decks, I'm really confused. It's like an Affinity player saying that Goblins isn't a REAL aggro deck.
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Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
The versions without Counterbalance?
Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.
There's others, but that's a long enough list already.
These are indeed the bad matchups.
But to be fair: Gobs + Fast Zoo is 50/50 and gobs is more like 60/40 postboard. And Counterbalance does nothing against Dragon STompy and Gobs.
Out of the above list however, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Cat Sligh are not commonly played, so the popular list that it boils down to are Merfolk, Storm Combo, and Zoo with Price of Progress. At the very least, my list that I tweak in my metagame HAS to take into account of Merfolks and Zoo, and 1-3 combo players. Counterbalance lists do help out in the Zoo/combo matchups but it weakens the other matchups such as Bant, GWx. Any deck packing GW usually makes Counterbalance not a worthwhile engine when considering Grips + Pridemage + counters/discard + fast clock. This is not to say that a counterbalance list will not do well, but I feel that a non-Counterbalance list trumps these GWx decks better than a Counterbalance list. It's a balance, but I'm inclined to say that Counterbalance.control has more power in the meta than one without one, but it doesn't necessarily means that it is a mistake not to play Counterbalance.
And Rico, that makes more sense now that you explained it lol.
