[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Yay you are leaving! : )!!!

I don't see how Crypt is bad at all. We play in a meta that has a Tier 1 graveyard with FoW's. And you know, you use Crypt at INSTANT SPEED.

Yes, I know what you are telling me, and it's retarded. How does one even expiriment with the sideboard? Your sideboard is meta dependant. Are you still playing Hydroblasts in your sideboard for flavor or what dude?

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"Dude", you r the one completly retarded, i didn't experiment with sb, i suggest u to read the previews posts... You'r so narrow minded that you unknowingly say that you can play a tormod's crypt at instant speed... Persist on your ideas if you think that using a crypt vs emrakul is the same as a trap but once again your wrong... Your impulsive post show a clearly lack of experience with the deck, you clearly lack the understanding of cards like remand and etc... further more you show a lack of understanding on the deck it self: instant speed meaning being able to play any card in resp to something (do you know that one of the main problems of this deck is Reset that is also our best advantage card? No? don't understand what i am saying? oh well...)
As the Hydroblast go, no i never (or almost never) play with Hydroblast, my tournaments winnings and my top 8's were with lists that compensate the speed that red based decks had: fast zoo, mono-red, goblins etc. But many times that's a risk, hydroblast can be a strategy vs this kind of decks. But once again you are inconsistent "sb is meta dependant you" said. We all need to play a lot, learn a lot from each other but not with this kind of path that you'r trying to create for a long time, this deck was once the tier1 of the tier1s, not it's abandoned. The question lay before us: it's still playable? I think so, but requires many work that many can think that it's not worthy...

I returned here thanks to the curiosity of seeing what was answered to my post, and you didn't disappointed me, you fail presenting any kind of argument value to any of the things i mentioned...

@Kevin: thanks for explain to him the problem of non-instant cards.

@GoldenCid: 1st let me explain the why of the dismember: pre banning the deck that was really annoying me was NO RUG so dismember seemed the best answer: it kills dryad, noble, goyf etc avoiding the NO plan to be put at a very very early clock so post banning i thought to myself why not keep it? i was wrong snapcaster + snap was really good when combine in a right way (the amount of each that i wanted to use); after that and 3 weeks after the banning i can probably say that the meta is already defining itself so i made some calculation and assume my risk preparing to Amsterdam with a sb that's focused on beating some kind of matches, i assume for example that vs merfolks i hardly will win in a pre-sb match however post boarded match (meaning the largest amount of matches that we play at a tournament) it's another story. I can say to you that dismember is still part of my sb (the capability of killing a cannonist is insane or a Meddling mage equiped with a sword of fire and ice).


Another thought: i do think that the HP plan is good but i would put the tropical in the sb...

Regards to you all, hope that all of you find the best way of playing this deck, don't let it die, and i really hope that you succeed on build something very good.

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

"Dude", you r the one completly retarded, i didn't experiment with sb, i suggest u to read the previews posts... You'r so narrow minded that you unknowingly say that you can play a tormod's crypt at instant speed... Persist on your ideas if you think that using a crypt vs emrakul is the same as a trap but once again your wrong... Your impulsive post show a clearly lack of experience with the deck, you clearly lack the understanding of cards like remand and etc... further more you show a lack of understanding on the deck it self: instant speed meaning being able to play any card in resp to something (do you know that one of the main problems of this deck is Reset that is also our best advantage card? No? don't understand what i am saying? oh well...)
As the Hydroblast go, no i never (or almost never) play with Hydroblast, my tournaments winnings and my top 8's were with lists that compensate the speed that red based decks had: fast zoo, mono-red, goblins etc. But many times that's a risk, hydroblast can be a strategy vs this kind of decks. But once again you are inconsistent "sb is meta dependant you" said. We all need to play a lot, learn a lot from each other but not with this kind of path that you'r trying to create for a long time, this deck was once the tier1 of the tier1s, not it's abandoned. The question lay before us: it's still playable? I think so, but requires many work that many can think that it's not worthy...

I returned here thanks to the curiosity of seeing what was answered to my post, and you didn't disappointed me, you fail presenting any kind of argument value to any of the things i mentioned...

@Kevin: thanks for explain to him the problem of non-instant cards.

@GoldenCid: 1st let me explain the why of the dismember: pre banning the deck that was really annoying me was NO RUG so dismember seemed the best answer: it kills dryad, noble, goyf etc avoiding the NO plan to be put at a very very early clock so post banning i thought to myself why not keep it? i was wrong snapcaster + snap was really good when combine in a right way (the amount of each that i wanted to use); after that and 3 weeks after the banning i can probably say that the meta is already defining itself so i made some calculation and assume my risk preparing to Amsterdam with a sb that's focused on beating some kind of matches, i assume for example that vs merfolks i hardly will win in a pre-sb match however post boarded match (meaning the largest amount of matches that we play at a tournament) it's another story. I can say to you that dismember is still part of my sb (the capability of killing a cannonist is insane or a Meddling mage equiped with a sword of fire and ice).


Another thought: i do think that the HP plan is good but i would put the tropical in the sb...

Regards to you all, hope that all of you find the best way of playing this deck, don't let it die, and i really hope that you succeed on build something very good.

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I used to respect your posts...

They can only go for Iona if they have it in hand or Entomb for it. If they Entomb for it, oh well, it happens. I hate Trap honestly. 3 cards is kind of hefty, and it won't always happen. Even if you run artifact hate you can leave an Extraction is the sb to wish for, going like +3 Flusterstorm +3 Hate or something.

Seraphus, you can use Crypt instantly. If it's in play it will remove all the Emrakuls in the world. Extraction is a lot better though as it removes all the Emrakuls. I already said Crypt sucks when you cant Meditate into it, but you don't have to Meditate into it. I might go down to just 1 Crypt but I am loving Crypts so far. I've said enough I think. The "it's not an instant" arguement is not really going to stray me away from one of the best pieces of graveyard hate in the game.

Anyhow, lets move past the subject.

Nice to see some activity on the thread again. :P

With regards to Hunting Pack, I nearly always Wish for it while going off. If I'm using a Hunting Pack kill I'm probably going off early under pressure, so I'm unlikely to have had the chance the wish for the Pack. However, even when I do have time, I don't wish the turn before; one of Hunting Pack's strengths is the ability to wipe your opponent's board. I want all of his creatures attacking me, and he's not going to do that if I have telegraphed the Pack the previous turn.

Graveyard hate is a tricky one. Before Surgical Extraction, I ran 1 Ravenous Trap and 3 Faerie Macabre. The Trap was a wishable win against Dredge and also dealt with Emrakul (multiple Emrakul's are rare, but can be dealt with totally without any GY hate providing you have managed to accumulate resources during the combo) while the Macabres were uncounterable instant speed hate against Survival/Dredge/Reanimator. (Silly question: would Survival have been a problem if Surgical Extraction had already been printed?)

Like everyone else, I've become addicted to the sheer power of SE, but it is pretty narrow. Perhaps Faerie would be better. I've not like Tormond's Crypt, but I can understand why people would play it. It's the hand's down best answer to the graveyard.

I've dropped Clique from my maindeck, largely because it turns on creature removal game 1. I've moved back up to four Remand, but am toying with some main deck Flusterstorms. Even Zoo and Goblins run a little burn, so it's not completely dead. That would free up some sideboard space - having decided that I can run at most 10 disruption spells post board Remand often comes out for more specialist hate.

The new Deck to Beat data is up. Both Dredge and Reanimator are DTB, so I need to nail down those matchups. Interestingly, Zoo has fallen out of DTB for the first time in a very long time. While I'm sure that my testing will not be wasted, I'm not sure that I can devote 3 sideboard slots (Tangle) to Zoo any more.

The remaining DTB are all control decks (their win condition is pretty irrelevant to us). Countertop is not a DTB. There is not a single DTB that Flusterstorm does not look good against, except possibly Dredge.

My sideboard currently looks like this:

1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Hunting Pack
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Faerie Macabre
2 ????

There are far too many contenders for those open slots. I'm tempted to put Cryptic back in the deck because my sideboard is currently so light on bounce. If I did that I could put 2 Cliques into the SB; they're useful against Zoo (to a lesser extent) as well as Storm and Control.

Guys i want to ask you how do you deal with enchatress. It's plagued in my meta of this deck . If they land a confinement + groove we're done. G1, we can counter they bombs but in g2 they side in Leyline of sancticity and nenermore and even runed halo. Those are simply too many cards to bounce and conter...any advise?

Hibernation good at combating groves (plus the incidental progentinus in other matchups) . If your meta is overrun with enchantress you could opt to play it but in my opinion you dont really need it, you have 3/4 remands, 4 fows, bounce from the side and maybe even repeals so I think it would be a bit of overkill to still add hibernation. In versions with hunting pack in the sideboard you would still have a way of killing them if they land a leyline+1/2 groves. In the end, the only card you should worry about is confinement wich isnt really hard to deel with at all with our counter suite.

So are you still gonna run this at the GP Silent? If so what list are you gonna run?

I've been testing with a 3 Remand and 1 Tangle split and like it so far. Playing with 4 Remands is awesome but I enjoy having a situational double-Timewalk in my deck. I still miss my Remand though as I almost never went down to 3 Remands post-side. The card is just crazy (Remand Jace, Remand my FoW to re-cast FoW on X card, Remand Remand Remand).


I love Macabres as they are going to be a pain in the ass for Reanimator decks to deal with, but I think Trap sucks. If you're going to run 5 pieces of hate just run a Tormod's there, or another Extraction/Macabre. 1-of Tormod's would be great though as if you hit them with it g2 they might side in Needles, and if you don't hit them with it in g2 they probably won't have Needles in g3. The card even dodges Thoughtseize.

Still, I'd run the Fluster instead of the 5th piece of gy hate. Fluster is just so good in so many match-ups (Merfolk, Thresh, Snapcaster Crap, Stoneforge, Blue Zoo, Team America though Team America is almost unwinnable)

I'd be tempted to remove the Krosan Grip more than anything, but I do love the card. Apart from ripping random CB-Top decks asses it's pretty decent to side in vs Uw Stoneforge decks, and I've done some random shit like blowing up LED's in response to Infernal Tutor with it.

Both me and Seraphus will be running Solidarity in Amsterdam. Are you going for Solidarity as well Kanti?

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Originally Posted by Kanti

So are you still gonna run this at the GP Silent? If so what list are you gonna run?

I've been testing with a 3 Remand and 1 Tangle split and like it so far. Playing with 4 Remands is awesome but I enjoy having a situational double-Timewalk in my deck. I still miss my Remand though as I almost never went down to 3 Remands post-side. The card is just crazy (Remand Jace, Remand my FoW to re-cast FoW on X card, Remand Remand Remand). Still this might be wrong as it opens your Tropical Island to Wasteland.


I love Macabres as they are going to be a pain in the ass for Reanimator decks to deal with, but I think Trap sucks. If you're going to run 5 pieces of hate just run a Tormod's there, or another Extraction/Macabre. 1-of Tormod's would be great though as if you hit them with it g2 they might side in Needles, and if you don't hit them with it in g2 they probably won't have Needles in g3. The card even dodges Thoughtseize.

Still, I'd run the Fluster instead of the 5th piece of gy hate. Fluster is just so good in so many match-ups (Merfolk, Thresh, Snapcaster Crap, Stoneforge, Blue Zoo, Team America though Team America is almost unwinnable)

I'd be tempted to remove the Krosan Grip more than anything, but I do love the card. Apart from ripping random CB-Top decks asses it's pretty decent to side in vs Uw Stoneforge decks. The good thing about it too is that I can side in x2 Truth x1 Wipe Away vs Zoo or Maverick and Wish for a Grip if they cast Canonist. Rebuild could do this just as easily though, and do much more, so I don't know. The Krosan Grip vs Rebuild question is definitely interesting.

Heres an sb I had in mind
4-core BSZ, Meditate, Turnabout, Pack
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
3 Flusterstorm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extracion

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Solidarity is the only deck I play, so yeah, I'll be running this at the GP. :P

I've gone with 3 Remand and 1 Cryptic because I don't want to have a(nother) dead card in my deck if they have Wasteland game 1. It's still slow and far from ideal, but it's flexible. It could easily be Clique or Flusterstorm, but I'm going to have to give that some more thought. Having Cryptic means I can relax about not having as much bounce in my sideboard.

I'm not taking out Ravenous Trap. I've won too many game 1 against Dredge with Cunning Wish > Ravenous Trap (they REALLY don't expect that), and it deals with Emrakul without life loss. I'd rather lose Surgical Extraction than Ravenous Trap.

I'm tempted to go with a full 4 Faerie Macabre against Reanimator, but all they need to do is land a Pithing Needle and I've lost my GY hate. So I'm looking at 3 Macabre and 1 Surgical Extraction, or 3 Macabre and 1 (extra) Flusterstorm.

My sideboard is currently:

1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Hunting Pack
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Faerie Macabre
2 ????

I'm toying with Rebuild and Snap in the empty slots. Snap gives me a token sideboard against aggro that is not dead once I start to combo and Rebuild seems good with so many deck packing Cannonist/Thorn of Amethist. I still want to fit Clique, but I've not had any "OMGBROKEN" moments with Clique, but then I've not been testing against the control decks as much.

Good luck to the three of you at the GP, and anyone else running Solidarity at the GP. Hope you all make Day 2.

I would run Tangle over Cryptic as it doesn't get hit by Daze, Pierce, Cursecatcher. The bounce Cryptic provides is largely irrelevant now that CB-Top isn't around, and Tangles effect is pretty relevant. I still think 4 Remands are going to be just flat out better as they are active in almost every match-up.

I can understand why you love Trap, especially if you run 4 Wishes. Having a way to win g1 is nice, especially when a lot of Dredge players will let you play first (Meaning they have to combo out on their t2 or Cabal you x2 times to deal with it). That seems pretty solid.

As for Macabre I coudn't disagree more. If they have a Needle down naming Macabre and you are the guy playing a playset of Macabres you're going to feel like crap. You can bounce the Needle in response to a reanimation spell but that is a bit taxing to go around many times. I'd go like 2Macabre/1-2Extraction/1Trap/0-1Crypt. Extraction pretty dodges Needle and Stifle, and it goes around Daze quite handily. It's also worlds better vs Dredge, though still crap.

You are also lacking bounce. Like way lacking. Getting around Canonist and Teegs can be pretty hard, especially if they have a Mother of Runes out. 2 Truths, 1 Wipe Away, 1 Rebuild/Grip (each have their merits though I think Rebuild might be better). That Brain Freeze is eating up precious space in your side ;/. 4 Wishes just seems so clunky, even if you do run Pack.

Scope out the meta when you get there though, and build accordingly.

Any input from Amsterdam?

I'm also interested to how you guys did at the GP!

I found my next card to test for my gy hate package though. At first I was gonna run Krosan Reclamation because it has flashback but I found that Memory's Journey is just a flat out better version of it that is in both of our colors. This is like our version of Coffin Purge ;o...

Edit: With so much many Tendrils and opposing Flusterstorms floating around I am tempted to find room for a Mindbreak Trap. The only things I think I would cut though are are 1 Wipe Away/Truth or 1 piece of gy-hate. I have absolutely loved having access to 3 Flusterstorms too much to cut any.

Wipe Away can go but the card is sometimes really good. I don't want to think of the tomfoolery Maverick will pull with their 5 million Mother of Runes activations.

Well, I crashed and burned. I haven't done that badly at a tournament in a very long time. I was going to do a detailed tournament report, but I don't see that happening now.

I hate wheeling out the whole "the deck let me down" excuse, but to a large extent that's what happened. The deck just wasn't up to the challenge.

I made two play errors in the tournament that stand out to me; one where I put my opponent on the wrong deck, and one where I boarded in anticipation of the wrong hate. Both errors were recoverable. On the other hand, I can honestly say that I made some amazing technical plays, so while my performance was not flawless, I would not have called it poor, either.

In general, my blowout came down to three factors:

1) Bad luck. There were many occasions where I dug for answers or particular cards but came up empty. It happens, although Solidarity is more vulnerable to that than some other, more consistent decks.

2) Storm hate. Everyone knew Storm would be big, and they boarded accordingly. One particularly nightmarish match against NO Bant saw them drop 2 Meddling Mage and 1 Gaddock Teag by turn 3, while they still had FoW and Flusterstorm in their hand. I came very close to winning that game, but see point 1) above. He told me afterwards that he had not managed to find the Aethersworn Cannonists he had also boarded in.

3) Slow. Time after time, I felt like I was simply too slow for the meta. In the above example NO Bant was simply able to do too much in the 4 turns (minimum) that I needed to go off; racing was never an option.

I must admit that I had a bit of an MTG epiphany at Amsterdam. I was looking about the tournament hall and thinking about the time, money and effort that had gone into getting me to the tournament, and I wondered why I was throwing away all that time, money and effort by playing a deck that I knew was not a contender. It's one thing to do that at your local monthly tournament, but to do that after traveling to another country?

So yeah, I think I'm shelving Solidarity for the time being. Not out of anger, or even disappointment, but because I realize I'm taking my hobby seriously enough that I really ought to actually start trying to win. Time to start experimenting with other storm decks, I think.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I must admit that I had a bit of an MTG epiphany at Amsterdam. I was looking about the tournament hall and thinking about the time, money and effort that had gone into getting me to the tournament, and I wondered why I was throwing away all that time, money and effort by playing a deck that I knew was not a contender. It's one thing to do that at your local monthly tournament, but to do that after traveling to another country?

So yeah, I think I'm shelving Solidarity for the time being. Not out of anger, or even disappointment, but because I realize I'm taking my hobby seriously enough that I really ought to actually start trying to win. Time to start experimenting with other storm decks, I think.

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You know, I actually experienced the complete opposite of this. I play Legacy seriously and I spend a lot of time getting to a good decklist. This weekend made me realise that you have to be lucky to win whatever deck you play. You can come to the tournament with high expectations, trying to optimalize your chance to win anything and still fail while not doing much wrong (and then seeing EoT Brainstorms all over the place on day 2). Ultimately you're just trying to have fun. Solidairty let's you do that while also giving you a reasonable shot at winning.

Well that totally sucks. I would say don't get your hopes down, but you do have a point. If you're going in it to win it then yes, Solidarity is a bit outdated. This deck is SLOWWW. This is a big problem in the world of permanent based hate.

I'd experiment with TES if I were you. That deck is amazingly fun, and competitive. While I do beleive that Solidarity isn't in the worst positions regarding the meta I do think it's an extremely hard deck to pilot, that will probably end up not rewarding the player as much as you they like for tight play.

With that said you had a bit of bad luck facing NO Bant that ran Mages. Not all lists do run it, but when Mage does hit it is basically the strongest piece of hate against you (past resolving Hymn of Tourach on turn two but that is something else entirely). Fluster and Force in hand is just ridiculous too. I'd still like to see a report though, even a small one ;b.

Edit: Testing this sideboard as my last ones gy hate package wasn't perfoming.
4core
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
3 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extracion
4 Leyline of the Void

I kind of take it back on Leyline. It is hella good as nobody expects it. Not to mention I can still go Wish>Extraction for added protection. The bounce package allows me to still have Rebuild in the side (for what it's worth, a second Truth. Rebuild lets you pretty much auto-win any Stompy or Stax match though, and it is good for bouncing Canonists.)

As for the lack of bounce I am running 3 Remand/1 Snap main. The only other way I could run Leyline+Extraction would be to cut a Turnabout from the sideboard to run Snap in it's place, making it take on the role of the untapper and bounce. I'm not sure as this is too good of an idea though as Wish>Turnabout is a line of play that often comes up for me.

This thread is like a Mexican "telenovela"!!!! LOL "Dude" you still don't get that non instant cards don't work in solidarity?

Yeah you're totally right. I should also stop splashing green as Solidarity historically was mono-blue.

Leyline is strong as hell. Nobody expects that you are playing Leyline, so they won't side for it and it will win you almost all of your g2's. It's g3 where Leyline starts to stop being all that great, but it's still pretty damn good considering it is a must answer.

Hate cards are usually linear and have a very strong effect on game-states. Leyline not being an instant doesn't bother me as it's effect is THAT powerful (Kind of like Crypt, but a lot more powerful albeit uncastable). If it isn't obvious already, it is the only non-instant card in my deck for the reason that yes, we are a deck that runs on the ability of instants to be cast on an opponent's turn (Thank you Reset). I've feel like I've talked about this 9 million times already. I'm not running Merchant Scroll or Ponders in the main, I'm running a very narrow piece of hate in my side.

Edit: I hated Snap in the main. Well it wasn't so much of that, but more of wanting 4 Remands main. 2 Truths and 1 Wipe Away in the side is enough for Zoo, but Maverick is nightmarish. Let's not even get started with Gwr Maverick, where they side in Pyroblast. Game 1 is usually a breeze, but sideboarded games have you facing Canonist+Choke+Mindbreak Trap sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Yeah you're totally right. I should also stop splashing green as Solidarity historically was mono-blue.

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Kanti,

Seraphus is totally right about not playing non-instant cards. You simply can't play ANY of these since your fizzle rate goes way up during combo.
If you want to play sorceries, artifacts or whatever; build Spiral Tide.

What defines Solidarity is that it plays all instant speed cards. This is the power of the deck. If you start messing around with that, you're taking the wrong path.

Even though I agree that it is not a good idea to play non-instants in Solidarity, I think that in some very specific cases exceptions can be made. In a metagame infested with grave-based decks, I'd think about using Leyline of the Void, because it simply wins the game by itself.
The only problem I see - and it is a big one - is that you have to mulligan for it. I don't like this. But given you're not afraid of mulliganing into Leyline, all you have to do is cantrip for counterspells. You'll then have infinite time to sculpt your hand.

Also, I agree that newcomers should read the whole thread and goldfish a thousand times before throwing a new idea, and I respect experienced players and veteran sourcers a lot, but I don't find irony or dogmas to be good arguments from anyone. An idea must be built over good logical arguments, and refuted the same way.