Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Hello!
Been tweaking some, but unsure what to put at the last spot in sideboard. Any tips? Sylvan, Jitte, extra jace, surgical?
The Deck
CREATURES (17)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (6)
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
INSTANTS (12)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
LANDS (22)
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claymore
Turn 2
Lost Legacy, accelerated by Deathrite Shaman.
They may draw a card, but last I checked the deck can't do nearly as much without Aluren itself.
What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
weiuweiu
Hello!
Been tweaking some, but unsure what to put at the last spot in sideboard. Any tips? Sylvan, Jitte, extra jace, surgical?
The Deck
CREATURES (17)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (6)
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
INSTANTS (12)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
LANDS (22)
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
I'd play a second Deluge or a Jitte in the board, and I don't think that Cage is a great piece of graveyard hate right now since it's blank against Punishing Fire/Loam decks. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are both better. How has Leovold been? I tried him and found himsuper bad.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.
I'd play a second Deluge or a Jitte in the board, and I don't think that Cage is a great piece of graveyard hate right now since it's blank against Punishing Fire/Loam decks. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are both better. How has Leovold been? I tried him and found himsuper bad.
For me Leo has been great, mostly against the blue decks with brainstorm and such, but also for burn actually, every burn spell lets me draw cards and hopefully find something like drs xD
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
played in the legacy champs event at eternal weekend to a below average result but did well in some trials and side events with this list:
https://manastack.com/deck/shardless-bug-4
ending record 2-2-2drop
round 1 grixis delver 1-2 gitaxian probe and cabal therapy on turn 1 of games 1 and 3 to a virtual mulligan to 5 with no scry was too hard to come back from with his agressive hands
round 2 elves 2-1 umezawas jitte in the main is a real dealer, also game 3 turn 1 grafdiggers cage saved my ass hard
round 3 rug delver 0-2 stifled everything that could possibly be stifled from ancestral vision to shardless cascade triggers to liliana trigger to fetches i never really got in any of the games
round 4 d+t 1-1-1 opponent played very slow, game 3 was a grind fest, but abrupt decay and the 1st pulse had dealt with all their equpiment and golgari charm and the 1st toxic deluge had removed pretty much all the creatures in their deck, on turn four of turns they play a mirran crusader that i knew was in their hand that i was saving the second deluge for, on turn 5 i draw maelstrom pulse and toxic deluge the board leaving my tarmogoyf and no creatures left on their board but still need 1 more turn to deal lethal with the goyf, i reveal pulse and ask for a concession and they decline. the only thing left in their deck that could have saved them a few more turns at that point was swords to plowshares. i was salty for a moment.
round 5 ant 2-0 easy match
round 6 d+t 1-1-1 super long grindy games. toxic deluge, golgari charm and umezawas jitte are bonkers against this deck obviously. you are definitely the better jitte deck due to the inclusion of abrupt decay and tarmogoyf if it comes down to a jitte showdown. your diversity of cmc in threats makes sanctum prelate an incredibly skill intensive card but naming 0, 2 or 3 will give you many outs but make it incredibly difficult to win quickly.
all in all a super fun weekend. the only thing im upset about is losing to some delver decks. i had prepared against grixis delver/variants, miracles and d+t/variants pretty exhaustively prior to this event and found the delver matchups pretty simple, but sometimes theyre just too quick. i think over the course of 1 night and 2 days i played 22 matches of legacy, and even some of the guys i went out to columbus with placed highly with infect and lands and even top 32d the vintage event.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Hi everyone,
I joined a 30 players tournament two days ago at my LGS with this Shardless BUG. It's Lejay's last list (01/06/2016)
22 LANDS
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
20 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
2 Toxic Deluge
6 OTHER SPELLS
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of the Void
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
I made top 8 with 3-1-1 (ID) and lost in quarter against UR Burn.
What I really liked about this list is the 2nd Toxic Deluge paired with the 3rd Liliana. Before that tournament, I kept a pretty straight forward version with only 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Baleful Strix and 2 Hymn to Tourach. It was solid but I wanted to try a more control oriented '75 with an even better MU against fair decks. Therefore the side is mostly dedicated to fight combo obviously.
R1 2-1 RB Reanimator
I played against the creator of the archetype, and his list won the Legacy Bazaar of Moxen of last week. G1 was too hard. I managed to keep him at bay with 2 Force of Will on his Reanimates, but the 3rd won put a Griselbrand on board. G2 was easier since he mulled to 5' and I had a great start with DRS and a Leyline on turn 3. G3 was very close : he showed me a Chancellor of the Annex and played it on turn 1. I took some beating but found a Liliana that took care of his creature and a FOW countered another key spell.
R2 2-0 4 Color Delver
G1 was all about wasteland and DRS. Fortunately I found more lands and was able to put him out of tempo. He never got back as I played goyf and shardless agent. G2 : I had 2 toxic deluge, 1 sylvan library a FOW and enough lands. He played 2 DRS and a Delver but has a single Underground Sea. I play my Library and turn 2 and fire my toxic on turn 3 ---> he dazes ---> I force ---> he brainstorms but can't find his own FOW. He cannot catch-up as I played 2 Goyfs.
R3 0-2 Grixis Control
I wasn't experienced with this MU and payed the price. G1 : I had DRS and shardless agent on an empty board on turn 3. Turn 4 I send my Liliana into a Spellpierce without any FOW to back-up. From there he played Gurmag and decayed DRS. I never found my Maelström Pulse or an other Liliana. G2 : I kept a heavy hand with Night of Soul's Betrayal and Jace. He played DRS and Young Pyromancer combined with Winter Orb. I had no Decay to break the asphyxia. My Night of Soul's Betrayal walked into another spellpierce.
R4 2-0 Shardless BUG
G1 : he got color-screwed with only two bayou on board as I killed his DRS. He had a hand full of Strix ans BS. G2 : Toxic-deluge killed his 2 DRS. I resolved a Vision and Jace. He conceded as I forced his own Vision.
The MU usually come down to Abrupt Decay on Goyf and Vision. But in that round the 2nd Toxic Deluge broke G2.
R5 1-1 Lands.
We agreed on draw and made into Top 8. We played for fun and I got crushed two times by Marit...
R6 Quarter-Final 0-2 UR Burn
G1 was very tight. He drew a lot of burn spell and killed several deathrite. I managed to kill his swiftspear and stormchaser with Toxic Deluge. Then he played a Bedlam Reveler that was stopped by my Goyf but found a snapcaster to finish me with a bolt. In G2 I kept a poor hand with too many fow and never saw a decay. I forced his T1 delver and my only shardless cascaded into my sideboarded Swords to Plowshares onto an empty board. Price of Progress and another Bedlam crushed me several turns later.
Overall I found that the package with the Toxic and the Liliana was quite efficient. I was in that sweet spot where you see your opponent playing multiple threats while thinking "he won't have enough decay". Sylvan Library was also a key spell in grindy MU obviously. The ponder was ok. Maybe I should shave an Ancestral Vision to avoid too many source of potential CA. I only saw one combo but the dedicated sideboard worked great. The one thing I'm not sure about is the lone Swords to Plowshares. It's awful to cascade into it if there are no valuable target.
Thx for reading
Spaker
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Nice report!
I finally picked up modo again after a long dry spell, unfortunately due to some poor decisions I am Liliana-less.
I tried making a list without her, and I went 2-3 in a league (should have been 3-2, but last round vs BR Reanimator I clicked my land and then F2'ed too quickly, the 2nd main phase was passed without me playing a land, leaving me with no mana to pay a Chancellor of the Annex tax for my Force of Will/Grafidigger's Cage). Felt stupid to lose to a mistake like that, but I suppose I should learn to be more patient. A $12 lesson :/
Here's the list I tried:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sylvan Library
I managed to beat UR Thing in the Ice/TNN/Snapcaster/Surgical.dec, and Grixis Delver. I lost to said UR deck, BR Reanimator (though this was due to my own stupidity/modo not registering my speed clicks), and Eldrazi Stompy. Eldrazi match was close in our 3 games, but multiple running All is Dusts g3 saved my opponent's behind.
Going to try and work my way back to a regular list.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Too bad about your lilianas hopefully you can get em back without putting too much of a dent in your wallet. No love for garruk though?!
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I've actually been kicking around a Liliana-less list for a bit, though I'll admit it's been a low prioity. I've particularly been unimpressed with Liliana against Miracles and D&T lately. It does force you to build and play a bit differently since you can no longer rely on the ultimate to clean up random permanents. I'm not sure if it's right, but I don't think it's crazy either.
With your list, I'd go:
-2 Jace
-1 Trop
+1 Strix
+1 Ponder
+1 Jitte/Deluge/Dimir Charm
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
This is the list I'm currently jamming, feels great but I just can't seem to win against grixis delver anymore (I'll admit that I am playing badly somehow but latley they allways seem to have everythin and their SB pretty strong) and d&t is a miserable MU (I used to run a Dread of Night over the 2nd Deluge in the SB but I don't think it's worth it). If you don't like ponder I would add a Strix/2nd Lili/2nd Pulse/Dismember/2nd Deluge - any kind of removal.
On a side note please board Plague against miracles. It is so much better than deluge for instance because you can kill all their Wizards to protecct your PWs or all their monks depending on the situation.
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.
I wish "nonartifact" weren't part of the stipulations, then the card would definitely be worth testing at least. As the card is written, I think Infinite Obliteration would be a better card since it doesn't offer compensation for the exiled cards.
I guess you could try making major modifications to the deck by including 4 Thoughtseize in the MD and 1-2 Lost Legacy. You get more early hand interaction with your opponent, and later in the game you can target yourself to remove the useless junk from your library and draw 0-4 cards. That looks terrible now that I'm reading it...
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Lost Legacy only draws if it's in hand, and since Shardless is such a value based deck it's unlikely you've got any completely dead cards in hand unless your opponent is on combo, in which case you should be LL them.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
The thought was that you can cash in your Thoughtseizes for useful cards, which would already be used vs combo and kinda become useless when you get into the topdeck war stages of a game. But -1 cards in hand to turn bad cards into good cards is still bad. That's why I said it looks horrible when reading it.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Shardless is in the semis of SCG Baltimore. Maybe I shouldn't give up on the deck after all. Looks like his plan against Lands is "don't get paired against Lands".
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=109247
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
He won! 2-0. Feels good to be a Shardless player. The deck definitely has legs right now. Fwiw, I played in two events at GP Dallas, went 3-0 in one and 3-1 in the other.
As for Lands, that match-up is very winnable. Orr just 2-0ed a Lands player in the semis, as a matter of fact.
Also, looks like it's time for me to give Leovold a shot.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
The singleton Leovold seems like it's likely right. I kept trying to jam 2 to limited success (his presence on the board being very win-more a lot of the time, or completely uncastable in hand) but will just go ahead and play the 1 in the mainboard today. I'm not completely sold on the sideboard or lack of Dismember in the main, but the numbers in the last list posted seem pretty good. I feel like the 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split is really where we want to be, provided you're lucky enough to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand instead of drawing it turn 8.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
halahel
He won! 2-0. Feels good to be a Shardless player. The deck definitely has legs right now. Fwiw, I played in two events at GP Dallas, went 3-0 in one and 3-1 in the other.
As for Lands, that match-up is very winnable. Orr just 2-0ed a Lands player in the semis, as a matter of fact.
Also, looks like it's time for me to give Leovold a shot.
I tried Leovold and didn't like him, but your mileage may vary. I was somewhat joking about Lands, but I do think he benefitted from playing against Jund Lands rather than straight RG, which is much harder because of Punishing Fire.
Also, it looks like he had a real slog of a day 2, playing his win-and-in against Elves and pulling that out. It sounds like he had to play very tightly to make it in to the Top 8, and he definitely showed that he knows how to play the Lands and Miracles matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ashent
The singleton Leovold seems like it's likely right. I kept trying to jam 2 to limited success (his presence on the board being very win-more a lot of the time, or completely uncastable in hand) but will just go ahead and play the 1 in the mainboard today. I'm not completely sold on the sideboard or lack of Dismember in the main, but the numbers in the last list posted seem pretty good. I feel like the 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split is really where we want to be, provided you're lucky enough to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand instead of drawing it turn 8.
I think 2/2 or 3/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize is right, depending on how your other costs are distributed. Maelstrom Pulse is better than Dismember as maindeck removal, though I do have a Dismember in the side. I'm currently running the MD Pulse over MD Jace, which I'm starting to think night be wrong.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
For what it's worth I've found murderous cut to be a bit better than dismember as a 1 of delve spell doesn't tend to hurt your tarmogoyf or drs, our life total is a serious resource and it's totally unconditional removal. I've also found diversifying our cmc removal spells to be super important against sanctum prelate. Let me know what y'all think.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
minyafriend
For what it's worth I've found murderous cut to be a bit better than dismember as a 1 of delve spell doesn't tend to hurt your tarmogoyf or drs, our life total is a serious resource and it's totally unconditional removal. I've also found diversifying our cmc removal spells to be super important against sanctum prelate. Let me know what y'all think.
If they Prelate on 3, you can Disfigure or Decay it. If they Prelate on 3 and have a Mother of Runes out, then Cut doesn't help anyway. I like Cut a lot in a world without Mother of Runes or where Eldrazi is half a turn to a full turn slower. The ability to kill a turn 1 Creature unconditionally ultimately outweighs not having to pay life.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
If they Prelate on 3, you can Disfigure or Decay it. If they Prelate on 3 and have a Mother of Runes out, then Cut doesn't help anyway. I like Cut a lot in a world without Mother of Runes or where Eldrazi is half a turn to a full turn slower. The ability to kill a turn 1 Creature unconditionally ultimately outweighs not having to pay life.
A few moments where it matters right now: huge knight of the reliquary, oblivion sower, a big creature equipped with a jitte with counters on it, 5/6 tarmogoyfs and removal that doesn't cost life against u/r delver and burn. I agree that being able to kill something turn one is important but I don't neccessarily think that's the tool murderous cut is in there for
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
minyafriend
A few moments where it matters right now: huge knight of the reliquary, oblivion sower, a big creature equipped with a jitte with counters on it, 5/6 tarmogoyfs and removal that doesn't cost life against u/r delver and burn. I agree that being able to kill something turn one is important but I don't neccessarily think that's the tool murderous cut is in there for
I think the utility of turn 1 removal far outweighs the corner cases where Cut answers something that Dismember doesn't. Even in the scenarios you mention, Decay is a better solution to all but the Oblivion Sower, and Dismember as a combat trick is just as good as Cut against Sower and all but the largest of Knights.
Also, look back over your match history. I suspect that you lose to turn 1 Mothers, Deathrite Shamans, and Delvers putting you behind because you're not running enough turn 1 removal far more often than you lose to random fatties coupled with not drawing Liliana, Jace, Maelstrom Pulse, Decay, or blockers.
