[DTB] Vial Goblins

I also agree on the point that RG version feels superior in a way. My approach is the following:

Maindeck:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Taiga

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus

Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tranquil Domain
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis

It plays Mono Red main with 3 maindeck relics (which are a HOUSE in a meta full of Threshold, Loam, and Tarmadecks in general) and offers the green splash for the sideboard. The manabase support disruption lands and you are not forced to fetch for taiga first game as you don´t maindeck any green cards.

Maindeck Relics solve the issue of Tharmagoyf in an awesome way as they not only stop the first one in the short term, but possibly also the following ones later on (which WW does not do). Apart from wrecking Ichorid game one in an unexpected way :D Graveyard using decks are at the top tables more and more everyday.

Green is basically for one of the most versatile sideboard cards right now: Krosan Grip. The lonely Tranquil Domain is a tech against Enchantress, double plague and W or U Propaganda decks. Additionally, 8 slots to fight combo seem enough and might ease the things in case of having to mulligan aggressively for lackey/vial or disruption pieces (depending if you are on the play or not). Playing just 4 slots against combo don´t seem enough. Also, maindecking relics free some valuable space in the side.
Also, as has been mentioned in this thread before, Chalice helps against Burn (if it is present in your meta).

I am thinking of maindecking a Tin Streen (for an Incinerator maybe?).

What do you think?

@ Malchar: Both rancor and berserk have been explored in this thread and the old thread, both are outdated/failed.

@ Peach: You are only running 14 red sources. Generally speaking it is agreed upon that 15 is the minimum. This means either cutting a port/waste or upping the land count to 23. Either way I am a strong supporter of running 8 fetches because it seems stifle is on a general decline. However, I do like your list quite a bit, and if I was playing RG, that is probably very close to what I would play.

However, I really don't agree with everyone saying relic is a house against tarmogoyf. It hurts him some, but it will take ~2 cards to kill goyf (because you can say the cantrip makes it not really two cards). And honestly every time I activate the relic's "ultimate power," tarmogoyf is back to a 2/3 and then 3/4 and then 4/5 again in like 2 or 3 turns. Relic DEFINITELY does not stop future goyfs. Hell, without support, it barely stops current goyfs.

To be a nongoblin in the deck pre or post requires a lot of things for me. Relic reminds me of extirpate. It's not really helping the game state. Ok, it makes tarmogoyf a 0/1 and now you can swing for 6 (or 15 or something with piledriver, but then driver could have traded with goyf anyway). The opponent shrugs his shoulders, takes 6 damage, then it's his turn. Then ponders, cracks his fetch, then StPs your warchief and is back on track with his engine.

And I played monored goblins since relic came out, just recently switching back to rbg. I even designed a deck disaster when it first came out known as "goyfless" that was basically zoo with no goyfs and relics instead. It was bad. I have tested extensively the interaction between relic and goyf. It's an ok answer to him, but not for goblins.

I will give relic approval in helping loam and ichorid astronomically, but boarding it against minor synergies just kills yourself. Against tarmogoyf? No way is relic an answer. WW is the only reliable answer and will probably be the only reliable answer until they print more black goblins, which could be never.

As mentioned though, I believe the biggest advantage of maindeck relic is freeing up sideboard space, and it still can be an average, very conditional answer to tarmogoyf.

And I highly recommend a tin street hooligan for an incinerator, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

And I highly recommend a tin street hooligan for an incinerator, but that's just me.

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I'm not entirely sure if it works this way, but doesn't the prescence of Warcheif kinda neuter tin street hooligan, since you can't pay G to cast it?

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Originally Posted by dr4g0n

I'm not entirely sure if it works this way, but doesn't the prescence of Warcheif kinda neuter tin street hooligan, since you can't pay G to cast it?

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Theoretically, they do not work well together. However, Goblin Warchief rarely lives long, and I would much rather have a surviving Goblin Warchief than a resolved Tin Street Hooligan. Basically, if Goblin Warchief is in play, the opponent has better things to worry about than a Tin Street Hooligan. That said, playing 1x Tin Street Hooligan and 1x Goblin Tinkerer is not out of the question.

@FoulQ

Regarding mana sources. In the beginning, I started playing with 23 producers (15+8colorless) and kept playing that for a long time. My idea is that in order to maximize the land disruption effect you need to have one in your opening hand, so you better play 4 waste, 4 port. In order to avoid mana flood a little bit and free 1 maindeck space I decided to cut 1 land and never looked back. 14+8 has been working fine for me so far for this kind of build. Playin 3 colors I would suggest:

3 Taiga
3 Badlands
7 fetch
4 waste
5 mountain

This way you play 10 off color producers and 18 red mana producing lands which seems more than enough.

As for relic, as I had already commented, it helps against two of the worst pairings of the deck from my point of view: Canadian and Loam. Relic helps you against the core of the deck. Tarmagoyf is just collateral damage here.

If you play it at the beginning of the game, you just have to keep it on the table. I don´t need to kill tarmagoyf with another cards, it´s not a 2 x 1. Tarma will be there and eventually block something or just die. You say that it does not stop further goys, well, it depends on how you play it and who you play against. If you take the aggressive role, your opponent will try to stop you or die, so I´m not sure he will have a lot of resources available to come back from a relic final effect.

Overall, the relic approach eases keeping the core of the deck stable. The deck tries to do what it does best, and relics are there just for support. You might not even need them. But they can definitely help you if you get yourself into trouble.

I really like Tin main too, but Incinerator seems the only option to move out.

Thank you for your comments FoulQ, I really appreciate them.

I agree that relic definitely helps against loam and obviously versus ichorid. But for those two decks alone, I think I'm going to test extirpate, even though I really hate that card...what does everyone think about extirpate to beat loam and ichorid for goblins? I know 1 extirpate isn't going to really stop ichorid which means I probably have to play 4 sideboard if I do, but I might be able to get away with only 3 relics. We'll see. I'm probably going to have to drop explosives for them probably, which is depressing because I just bought 2 of them not very long ago. But loam is definitely present.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I agree that relic definitely helps against loam and obviously versus ichorid. But for those two decks alone, I think I'm going to test extirpate, even though I really hate that card...what does everyone think about extirpate to beat loam and ichorid for goblins? I know 1 extirpate isn't going to really stop ichorid which means I probably have to play 4 sideboard if I do, but I might be able to get away with only 3 relics. We'll see. I'm probably going to have to drop explosives for them probably, which is depressing because I just bought 2 of them not very long ago. But loam is definitely present.

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Extirpate sucks in 99% of the decks in the world. True story

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Originally Posted by true story

Extirpate sucks in 99% of the decks in the world. True story

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I remember having a conversion with extirpate verus crypt. Now it would be extirpate verus relic. The only decks were extirpate really shines, are in black based disruption decks because of the discard/land destruction that you play. By putting cards in the graveyard in this fashion is where extirpate is better than relic or crypt.

I really believe if your not play a deadguy variant of some sort, then I would run either crypt or relic as it is 100% better in most scenerios. Lets take the aggro loam/ichorid matchup into consideration. If you have a single relic/crypt, you can lock them out long enough to win in a lot of instances rather than having just 1 extirpate. Extirpate may be good in removing a particular card, but cyrpt/relic removes the entire graveyard which is more devasting against these decks.

In goblins, Extirpate should not even be considered b/c goes against the fundamentals of the decks strategy. I've tried a lot of different color combinations and builds of goblins to know what works and what doesn't. Crypt and Relic are just better on the job you need them to do.

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Originally Posted by true story

Extirpate sucks in 99% of the decks in the world. True story

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This seems a little exaggerated. Extirpate is a great card sometimes.
Extirpating the Bridge against Ichorid gives you a lot of time too. Furthermore, Extirpate has other uses. Many people forget for example that you can let your opponent shuffle his library which can be great against Combo or Landstill after an Enligthened or Mystical Tutor.

Against Loam, Extirpate kills the Loam forever and takes away an important engine of the deck. He can recover from a relic, but not from an Extirpate in this case

You already have a ton of ways to get rid of Bridges against Ichorid. And Loam runs Burning Wish.

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Originally Posted by Spur Grappler

This seems a little exaggerated. Extirpate is a great card sometimes.
Extirpating the Bridge against Ichorid gives you a lot of time too. Furthermore, Extirpate has other uses. Many people forget for example that you can let your opponent shuffle his library which can be great against Combo or Landstill after an Enligthened or Mystical Tutor.

Against Loam, Extirpate kills the Loam forever and takes away an important engine of the deck. He can recover from a relic, but not from an Extirpate in this case

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You extirpate loam. He wishes for loam and goes about playing with himself.

Pating thickets/caves seems pimp

Extirpate = just never works for me. I don't want to resort to something so easily stopped by chalice at 1 from loam, so I guess I'm now turning towards Leyline of the Void or Crypt..I think the wish thing isn't really that important, that will be slowing them down and any wish not for something as devastating as well...you got the picture, is a good wish for me. The main thing is what kicks said, bridge should not be that much of a concern, just the general graveyard strategy. Which is making me think leyline of the void if my strategy is to specifically beat loam and ichorid. Relic is always available though.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I remember having a conversion with extirpate verus crypt. Now it would be extirpate verus relic. The only decks were extirpate really shines, are in black based disruption decks because of the discard/land destruction that you play. By putting cards in the graveyard in this fashion is where extirpate is better than relic or crypt.

I really believe if your not play a deadguy variant of some sort, then I would run either crypt or relic as it is 100% better in most scenerios. Lets take the aggro loam/ichorid matchup into consideration. If you have a single relic/crypt, you can lock them out long enough to win in a lot of instances rather than having just 1 extirpate. Extirpate may be good in removing a particular card, but cyrpt/relic removes the entire graveyard which is more devasting against these decks.

In goblins, Extirpate should not even be considered b/c goes against the fundamentals of the decks strategy. I've tried a lot of different color combinations and builds of goblins to know what works and what doesn't. Crypt and Relic are just better on the job you need them to do.

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Once again your 100% right. The only time I was moderately successful with Extirpate was in Suicide Black. Even then sometimes it just wasn't worth having in the deck. Either it was the bomb or it completely sucked ass.

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Originally Posted by Spur Grappler

This seems a little exaggerated. Extirpate is a great card sometimes.
Extirpating the Bridge against Ichorid gives you a lot of time too. Furthermore, Extirpate has other uses. Many people forget for example that you can let your opponent shuffle his library which can be great against Combo or Landstill after an Enligthened or Mystical Tutor.

Against Loam, Extirpate kills the Loam forever and takes away an important engine of the deck. He can recover from a relic, but not from an Extirpate in this case

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Using Crypt against their yard buys time as well, and Crypt is better overall against other decks, the phrase sub-optimal comes to mind. I played Extirpate for a year in Suicide and realized it wasn't that good, and Suicide is the one deck where this card should shine most and it didn't. It was really good sometimes and really really bad other times. That was in Suicide where you're making them dump their hand blowing up land and killing shit so you have plenty of targets for Extirpate. In Goblins it would suck. True story. Don't believe me? Try it for six months in the board and get back to me.

As it's mostly discussion now I feel like it's time for a list again. I'm going to play a tournament next week where I want to be playing gobbos as the expected meta is thresh, thresh and more thresh I think it's a decent call. Though there will be combo, merfolk, landstill and dreadstill as well. I can't take credit for the idea behind the list (that would be Eldariel) but I've been testing it for about 3 months now, here's the list:

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerators
4 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

15 Mountain
3 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokenises
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Boartusk Liege

As can be seen I'm playing a grand total of 25 lands. The mutavaults are a great addition to the deck as they help me combat mass removal make me curve out more easily and give me an extra goblin at the same time which is good for many occasions. Rishadan Ports are a 3-off because I don't feel they're getting much better in multiples and only so many non-basics (non red producing) should be played.

Out of the goblins played, most people would probably disagree with 4 Stingscourger but test it. It's probably my favorite card in the deck. It helps you deal with Dreadnought's Tombstalkers and Tarmogoyf's as well as clearing blockers turn 2 for a lackey to connect. It also screws combat math and is insane with a warchief. The incinerators have been great so far, though they're more a mid-lategame card. Playing them as a 4-off is (I believe) essential if you're going for mono red, uncounterable removal against factories and mutavaults functioning under a standstill is definitly worth a 4 off in the current meta.

The rest of the maindeck is standard. As for the sideboard, I'm not sure if Relic is better then Crypt. It is against Loam but not neccesarily against Dredge. I'm uncertain here. The Boartusk Liege proved to be the best monored answer to Engineered Plague by far, I really do not understand why people attempt to use Goblin Kings and Goons when the Liege just does it that much better.

As for the combo matchup, Pyrokenises can be a nice surprise but don't expect to win the match, I don't think you should be playing Goblins in a meta were combo is rampant but at the same time I don't think combo is the biggest concern at the moment either.

How has 4x Stingscourger been for you?

Because with 4x wouldn't it be redundant when

1) opponent has no creatures
2) you top deck a stingscourge when it's down to the wire when no other creatures are in play.

Or is it not a dead card since you can cast it regardless whether your opponent has a creature or not?

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Originally Posted by P-AiR

How has 4x Stingscourger been for you?

Because with 4x wouldn't it be redundant when

1) opponent has no creatures
2) you top deck a stingscourge when it's down to the wire when no other creatures are in play.

Or is it not a dead card since you can cast it regardless whether your opponent has a creature or not?

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The same can be said for Swords to Plowshares and Warren's Weirding, but it would be a fair comment to say that the last one perhaps shouldn't be a 4 off. In topdeck mode, stinger is still a 2/2, much like Mutavault it serves a dual function. Generally though you're in a pretty decent position if your opponent doesn't have anything on the table.

Still though, other then combo decks, creatures become relevant at one point, having 4 stingers allows you to use them freely and often. There are so many viable targets for the stinger in Legacy it's rediculous.

I understand what you're getting at but at the same time Swords and Weirding can be used on your own creatures which provides versatility during a game that's down to the wire.

I'll have to playtest it quite a bit!

How are your mutavaults working for you?

I'm just gonna point out that I've won, or gained a decisive edge, in many games after trading everything and beating with that lone Sting that survived the fallout. Of course you don't want to pay the Echo, but the option is there when you don't have any creatures left due to counters and sweepers/trades.

For what it's worth, it's much better than StP (2/2 over some life) or Weirdings (2/2 over 1/1, and one you can cast without creatures in play) when you're out of gas. Most importantly, unlike either of the others, it can do both things, which can be very relevant when stalling to draw into bombs vs. Goyfs/Stalkers/whatever.


There are many things going against Stingscourgers over other removal options, but usability when opponent doesn't have creatures isn't one of them.