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Re: All B/R update speculation.
"Because pointing out that 90% of Legacy is blue is bullshit posting. Because pointing out that blue won't drop dead as evidenced in other formats where Brainstorm is not legal. Because pointing out that most Legacy decks still use the attack step to win beyond Storm decks is bullshit posting."
This is an absolutely horridly untrue statement. Yesterday in 6 rounds I played against 5 non blue decks. As evidenced the top 8 of said tournament was only 37.5% blue. And all of them lost in the top 8.
And your statement was basically one of that every single deck that uses the attack step to win is considered an "Aggro" deck. Because if I play a couple of Rite of Flames and crack an LED in response to a BW to make 16 goblins on T1 and then attack with them, that makes me an aggro deck...
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vacrix
You can't ban Brainstorm, but what WotC can do is print cards that allow the current format to digress a little more. I'd say black has fallen from power outside of combo. What we want is a discard deck that can put the game away against an opponent who just wants to sit back and cantrip their way into permission, spot removal, etc. To do that, WotC has to print something that can't be played along side Brainstorm.
But WotC won't likely do this. Their focus is Standard and Modern. Legacy and Vintage are afterthoughts.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
And your statement was basically one of that every single deck that uses the attack step to win is considered an "Aggro" deck. Because if I play a couple of Rite of Flames and crack an LED in response to a BW to make 16 goblins on T1 and then attack with them, that makes me an aggro deck...
Sorry, that was not what I meant. I wasn't trying to say that SnT is an aggro deck but rather that the attack step is still a big part of Legacy. Pointing out that Modern has a lot of aggro decks doesn't mean that Legacy is suddenly a non-creature format when legacy is quite creature heavy. I apologize for the confusion.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
You can't ban Brainstorm, but what WotC can do is print cards that allow the current format to digress a little more. I'd say black has fallen from power outside of combo. What we want is a discard deck that can put the game away against an opponent who just wants to sit back and cantrip their way into permission, spot removal, etc. To do that, WotC has to print something that can't be played along side Brainstorm.
Wut? I'm doing this now...
Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Tidehollow Sculler, turn 3 Liliana of the Veil.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vacrix
You can't ban Brainstorm, but what WotC can do is print cards that allow the current format to digress a little more. I'd say black has fallen from power outside of combo. What we want is a discard deck that can put the game away against an opponent who just wants to sit back and cantrip their way into permission, spot removal, etc. To do that, WotC has to print something that can't be played along side Brainstorm.
We already do have Chains of Mephistopheles. Its scarcity is a problem though.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Because having a different opinion is trolling. See: my rant from a year ago about the three reasons why legacy will die off.
The problem with saying "oh, but WotC can print stuff..." is that WotC doesn't give a shit about Legacy. If WotC cared about Legacy, Modern would not exist. Also, two tournaments with less blue decks doesn't mean that Blue decks are "fair", it just means less people played blue decks. Without looking, I'm guessing that blue decks in other major tournaments made a larger showing than recently.
Same. I have and see no issues with it.
Remember who said this when Legacy dies out.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. I would be fine with it if you gave us decent arguments. If you ban brainstorm, sure blue decks would lose power, combo would lose power but blue would still be the most played color by a wide margin. Why, you ask? because blue has the security-seal that keeps legacy out of combo enslavement: Force of Will. Not only that, blue will still be the only color with good library manipulation (ponder preordain), will still have one of the best 1-drops to date: Delver of secrets and will still have all the good tempo cards.
Legacy is by definition a blue centric format because blue is what keeps the balance between combo and aggro. I think you have to choose either of the 2. Or you want the color blue to be dominant but you have an extremely diverse metagame where anything is possible and you can play any archetype you want. OR you have Modern, where every color is playable in any combination possible but you roughly only have 1 archetype: Midrange and you have to ban everything that exceeds the "power limits" of the format.
Since you are complaining about one of the defining pillars of magic, i think you just dislike the format and should play another one. You preach the doom of legacy and how bad brainstorm is and whatnot. Then what are you waiting for, go sell your cards while they are still hot and buy into modern or standard. Go enjoy magic as you like it instead of wanting to change something nobody wants to change and the majority is happy with.
There's no point in playing a dying and ennoying format where everything is blue and everything is broken, right?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AEnesidem
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. I would be fine with it if you gave us decent arguments. If you ban brainstorm, sure blue decks would lose power, combo would lose power but blue would still be the most played color by a wide margin. Why, you ask? because blue has the security-seal that keeps legacy out of combo enslavement: Force of Will. Not only that, blue will still be the only color with good library manipulation (ponder preordain), will still have one of the best 1-drops to date: Delver of secrets and will still have all the good tempo cards.
Legacy is by definition a blue centric format because blue is what keeps the balance between combo and aggro. I think you have to choose either of the 2. Or you want the color blue to be dominant but you have an extremely diverse metagame where anything is possible and you can play any archetype you want. OR you have Modern, where every color is playable in any combination possible but you roughly only have 1 archetype: Midrange and you have to ban everything that exceeds the "power limits" of the format.
Since you are complaining about one of the defining pillars of magic, i think you just dislike the format and should play another one. You preach the doom of legacy and how bad brainstorm is and whatnot. Then what are you waiting for, go sell your cards while they are still hot and buy into modern or standard. Go enjoy magic as you like it instead of wanting to change something nobody wants to change and the majority is happy with.
There's no point in playing a dying and ennoying format where everything is blue and everything is broken, right?
1. I don't need to make assumptions about how WotC feels about Legacy. People have made it clear they wanted dual lands off the Reserved list. WotC then makes Modern. It's not an assumption of any kind.
2. The point isn't to neuter blue but to tone it down. Even you know that blue would still be powerful, but the power level difference between ponder/preordain and brainstorm is massive. If banning one card helps Legacy grow even more than I don't see what is wrong with banning it. It's not like I'm asking to ban FoW, which is actually a healthy and important card and one of the reasons Legacy is a great format.
3. I like how you assume that just because I see an issue with a single card that I suddenly dislike the format. Please, explain the mental gymnastics you had to perform to make that fallacy (strawman). By your own logic, anyone that doesn't like Brainstorm must hate Legacy
Seeing issues with a format != not liking said format.
PS: My favorite decks have been almost exclusively blue control decks.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
1. I don't need to make assumptions about how WotC feels about Legacy. People have made it clear they wanted dual lands off the Reserved list. WotC then makes Modern. It's not an assumption of any kind.
2. The point isn't to neuter blue but to tone it down. Even you know that blue would still be powerful, but the power level difference between ponder/preordain and brainstorm is massive. If banning one card helps Legacy grow even more than I don't see what is wrong with banning it. It's not like I'm asking to ban FoW, which is actually a healthy and important card and one of the reasons Legacy is a great format.
3. I like how you assume that just because I see an issue with a single card that I suddenly dislike the format. Please, explain the mental gymnastics you had to perform to make that fallacy (strawman). By your own logic, anyone that doesn't like Brainstorm must hate Legacy
Seeing issues with a format != not liking said format.
PS: My favorite decks have been almost exclusively blue control decks.
It is an assumption, that is what YOU think wizards did it for. Other people say wizards created it to replace extended. Maybe they wanted to solve multiple problems at a time: Have a format that replaces extended and is home to the players who can't afford duals. Maybe they indeed wanted modern to be the eternal format of choice. These are all ideas people formed about the creation of modern. To be frank, i don't care, but you should take lessons in logic if you think that's not an asumption.
Because without brainstorm legacy would be entirely different. How is it healthy for legacy to remove a powerful tool from control and combo? If it's not to neuter blue, then what good does it do to the format? With the banning of brainstorm you kill miracle control and probably harm 90% of the combo decks. I don't see any benefit to that. IF it makes space for other decks to develop you'll probably have killed an equal amount of decks in the process.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Sorry, that was not what I meant. I wasn't trying to say that SnT is an aggro deck but rather that the attack step is still a big part of Legacy. Pointing out that Modern has a lot of aggro decks doesn't mean that Legacy is suddenly a non-creature format when legacy is quite creature heavy. I apologize for the confusion.
I think your signature also creates confusion when my own signature criticizes the RL which precludes players from entering this format for financial reasons. I'm not bothered however if they mentally distance themselves from this format thinking Brainstorm into Fetchlands is too powerfull when they can hammer a blue player into ground with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Bob, Lilianda and Bloodbraid Elf fueled by dual lands. Anyone who wants to play Modern can play it, there's no need to neuter multiple decks from all archteypes (Tempo, Control, Combo) in a perfectly fun format.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Why is this even a live thread? Nothing needs to be banned... The format is ridiculously healthy right now... The past few SCG Open top 8's have been incredibly diverse. Yesterday we had 6 different archetypes Top 8 (7 if you want to say TES and ANT are totally different; I just categorized under storm). Hell there wasnt even a Griselbrand and there were only 12 Brainstorms!
#BanPunishingFire
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
If anything I think they are leaning toward unbanning before banning something, though they are seemingly very cautious about unbanning anything so, will see in a month anyway! I prefer they unban another card, Land Tax was obviously very safe to unban, they could probably realistically unban 1 card every announcement for a year as I feel there's a couple cards they could unban.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AEnesidem
It is an assumption, that is what YOU think wizards did it for. Other people say wizards created it to replace extended. Maybe they wanted to solve multiple problems at a time: Have a format that replaces extended and is home to the players who can't afford duals. Maybe they indeed wanted modern to be the eternal format of choice. These are all ideas people formed about the creation of modern. To be frank, i don't care, but you should take lessons in logic if you think that's not an asumption.
It's actually doing multiple of the above. Specifically, it's replacing Extended and acting as their default eternal format to support.
Quote:
Because without brainstorm legacy would be entirely different. How is it healthy for legacy to remove a powerful tool from control and combo? If it's not to neuter blue, then what good does it do to the format? With the banning of brainstorm you kill miracle control and probably harm 90% of the combo decks. I don't see any benefit to that. IF it makes space for other decks to develop you'll probably have killed an equal amount of decks in the process.
These sound like assumptions to me (in the bold). There exists combo decks that aren't blue. Miracle control would probably die out but if that makes room for more control decks and more variety then that is fine. I'm sure control will exist with Jace and SFM hanging around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
feline
If anything I think they are leaning toward unbanning before banning something, though they are seemingly very cautious about unbanning anything so, will see in a month anyway! I prefer they unban another card, Land Tax was obviously very safe to unban, they could probably realistically unban 1 card every announcement for a year as I feel there's a couple cards they could unban.
Mind Twist or Earthcraft.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I really could care less right now if anything got unbanned. I dont think many of the cards that have the potential to be unbanned would rock the format too badly. Theres nothing that isnt obviously broken that I personally am itching to play with. I would be perfectly fine with nothing happening
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
It's actually doing multiple of the above. Specifically, it's replacing Extended and acting as their default eternal format to support.
I hate to agree with you Drago, but I believe you are right. Most people on this forum seems too blinded by their love for Legacy to realize this is what WotC is doing.
Also, Earthcraft on the banned list seems silly while we have Show and Tell existing in the format.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
I hate to agree with you Drago, but I believe you are right. Most people on this forum seems too blinded by their love for Legacy to realize this is what WotC is doing.
Tom LaPille claims that Modern isn't replacing any format.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...g/daily/ld/155
Quote:
Also, Earthcraft on the banned list seems silly while we have Show and Tell existing in the format.
Yeah. Earthcraft being banned seems really silly.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Tom LaPille claims that Modern isn't replacing any format.
Wizards also said that Mythic Rares wouldn't just be an assortment of tourney cards (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/mr334), but we all know how that turned out (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/arcana/1086).
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
That was the point I was making.
:(
I just don't see how some people don't notice the writing on the wall.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
That was the point I was making.
:(
I just don't see how some people don't notice the writing on the wall.
Because TheSource is like old Egypt. No one can actually read what's written on the walls and everyone worships cats...
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I wouldn't worry about Modern replacing Legacy, WotC has made it pretty clear (through actions not words) that Modern is replacing Extended.
The fate of Legacy is more similar to Vintage. The cards get more and more expensive until almost every event is proxy. The difference between Legacy and Vintage is that Vintage is just too broken for some people which further cut into it's player base. That said Legacy will probably not drop off as hard as Vintage did back in the early 2000's since a large part of that was continued cycles of broken decks being allowed to run amok which killed a lot of the interest.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Plus there are probably ten times more dual lands than P9 and there are 2 or 3 times more distinct and viable decks in Legacy compared to Vintage. However with the exponential growth in prices it is certainly going to create a slow down in the very near future. A year ago LED shooting from $35 to $50 was a big deal, this year it is $100. Jace was $55 a year ago, now it's $150. Prices were always crazy but it's certainly approaching the red line this year.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilb_o
Plus there are probably ten times more dual lands than P9 and there are 2 or 3 times more distinct and viable decks in Legacy compared to Vintage. However with the exponential growth in prices it is certainly going to create a slow down in the very near future. A year ago LED shooting from $35 to $50 was a big deal, this year it is $100. Jace was $55 a year ago, now it's $150. Prices were always crazy but it's certainly approaching the red line this year.
LED one hundred dollars? I'm sure it'll get there but it's still 25-30 dollars short though. Obviously the point is still valid, even if those prices are a bit off..
Last year I finally cashed up for LEDs and paid 160 euro for a playset. The guy bought them 60 for a playset a couple of years ago.
If we go 5-6 years back in time we can buy every deck we want for just the price of 1-2 decks these days. And back then a legacy deck would cost just a bit more then standard, which was worth the hassle considering your deck could be played for as long as it didn't become broken/unhealthy for the format.
For the moment I doubt anything is unhealthy or broken.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
I wouldn't worry about Modern replacing Legacy, WotC has made it pretty clear (through actions not words) that Modern is replacing Extended.
The fate of Legacy is more similar to Vintage. The cards get more and more expensive until almost every event is proxy. The difference between Legacy and Vintage is that Vintage is just too broken for some people which further cut into it's player base. That said Legacy will probably not drop off as hard as Vintage did back in the early 2000's since a large part of that was continued cycles of broken decks being allowed to run amok which killed a lot of the interest.
This is an excellent point! Legacy is a much more appealing format for players who like to play "fair" decks than Vintage is. In Legacy, you can actually play a fair deck such as Aggro and win. Many players don't like to even play proxy Vintage because they find the format "unfun." Legacy does not suffer from this problem. I think that Legacy will always have a fair amount of appeal. However, I agree that this appeal will decline over time if Legacy staples are not reprinted.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
LED one hundred dollars? I'm sure it'll get there but it's still 25-30 dollars short though. Obviously the point is still valid, even if those prices are a bit off..
Last year I finally cashed up for LEDs and paid 160 euro for a playset. The guy bought them 60 for a playset a couple of years ago.
If we go 5-6 years back in time we can buy every deck we want for just the price of 1-2 decks these days. And back then a legacy deck would cost just a bit more then standard, which was worth the hassle considering your deck could be played for as long as it didn't become broken/unhealthy for the format.
For the moment I doubt anything is unhealthy or broken.
Star city wise yjese prices are true. Obviously SCG is not the only place to buy cards, but just seeing the fact that the largest dealer has the balls to move it up that high is going to say something.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Star city wise yjese prices are true. Obviously SCG is not the only place to buy cards, but just seeing the fact that the largest dealer has the balls to move it up that high is going to say something.
Problem is that many other retailers will move their prices higher to reflect SCG's prices, then private sellers will follow. It's a domino effect when the "industry leader" sets the pricepoint; all others eventually fall in line.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Problem is that many other retailers will move their prices higher to reflect SCG's prices, then private sellers will follow. It's a domino effect when the "industry leader" sets the pricepoint; all others eventually fall in line.
This. Sometimes this doesnt happen, but with staples like LED, they know people need the card and if they dont bump their prices they will sell out very quickly.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
This. Sometimes this doesnt happen, but with staples like LED, they know people need the card and if they dont bump their prices they will sell out very quickly.
My local store used to have their own prices that they would sell at, which was always under Starcity. Then, they moved to matching SCG. Now they're pricing whatever they want based on demand (which can be higher than SCG). It's pretty sad when in my perspective, I should go to an online store instead of my own local store.
Unforts the above comments are right. Once there's a baseline by the biggest player setting a standard, most will follow.
-Matt
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
1) You had years to buy LEDs @ $10-40.
2) If you sold them then you learned a harsh lesson, never sell your reserved list magic cards. Never.
3) Playing storm is a privilege not a right.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
So hey guys, Balance seems like a good choice to unban. I mean, it's a completely balanced card!
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
3) Playing Legacy is a privilege not a right.
Fixed that for you.
-Matt
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
To be entirely honest (and with nearly 300 pages of content here I really haven't through the entire thing to find all the arguments for or against it) I'd honestly like to see Black Vise unbanned. It's a card that in the last couple weeks I look at it and think "why the hell is this card banned?" Sure, if you hit the nuts and get all four with some quick mana accel on the play, you're going to wreck your opponent's day, but you can do that with a lot of decks. It's just as possible to turn one Show and Tell into Omniscience and Emrakul for the win or just go Belcher which seems far more possible (and better) than Black Vise Magical Christmas Land.
Vise is a great card but I doubt it's so good that it's degenerate for the format. It doesn't just punish some control, either. Think about Reanimator and SnT with Griselbrand. If they draw a lot of cards on your turn (say to counter a spell you're playing) they're going to be taking a real hard hit come their turn on top of the life loss they already took from drawing from Griselbrand's ability. Strong, not degenerate, and keeps other decks in check (and provides an even more respectable reason to not ban Griselbees). It's just the surface of the argument, I'm sure, but I think it really wouldn't be a bad option at all.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
We had the discussion about Vise. It's a better Delver in the early turns for Tempo decks (Wasteland + Stifle!), punishes Control for no reason and is a repeatable Lightning Bolt (~6 damage) for Burn.dec.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
1) You had years to buy LEDs @ $10-40.
2) If you sold them then you learned a harsh lesson, never sell your reserved list magic cards. Never.
3) Playing storm is a privilege not a right.
I'm glad that this is a puritan morality play and not a pretendy fun time game where we compete to see who the mightiest wizard in the realm is.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
We had the discussion about Vise. It's a better Delver in the early turns for Tempo decks (Wasteland + Stifle!), punishes Control for no reason and is a repeatable Lightning Bolt (~6 damage) for Burn.dec.
Or the other side where it's a terrible topdeck, a high variance spell that very few decks would want. There are two sides to this argument.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Better Delver. Lol.
Maybe he meant Mons's Goblin Raiders.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...tr13/welcome#3
Grand Prix coverage.
At this point, based on multiple years of data, if you're not playing Brainstorm in Legacy, chances are you (1) can't afford it, (2) don't care about winning, or (3) are not very bright.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FieryBalrog
The four undefeated decks are Omnitell, Storm, Elves, and Death and Taxes. 50% non-Brainstorm decks in a field that is probably over 50% Brainstorm decks.
Edit: I see you're referring to the GPT Winners.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Sorta like now?
We have one deck that is not blue that is a DTB: Jund. The format fluctuates, but most of the time there only ever exists one non-blue DTB. Sure, there are other non-blue decks that put up results, but they are almost all tier 1.5/2 decks because they just die to combo. And guess what every one of those blue decks have?
Brainstorm.
The point I was making wasn't to justify a unbanning of Ancestral Recall (because it is clearly too powerful), but rather to show that the power level of Brainstorm is too high for Legacy and that it stifles (viable) deck variety. You need a damn good reason not to run Brainstorm in Legacy. No, this isn't anything new, but neither is the trend of 90% of the meta being blue and maybe one or two decks being non-blue that are tier 1 and don't just fold to combo.
I wouldn't want to be you looking at the GP results right now after all that fuss.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
but there you said it yourself, most of the field is playing bluen not because of brainstorm, but because it's the only color that reliably stops combo. Why is nobody splshing blue in decks like maverick, death n taxes goblins or even jund? because those decks don't want to be doing that. They have better things to cast within their plan. If brainstorm really was THAT broken, everyone would be splashing blue just for that card.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AEnesidem
but there you said it yourself, most of the field is playing bluen not because of brainstorm, but because it's the only color that reliably stops combo. Why is nobody splshing blue in decks like maverick, death n taxes goblins or even jund? because those decks don't want to be doing that. They have better things to cast within their plan. If brainstorm really was THAT broken, everyone would be splashing blue just for that card.
Well actually you have an exact blue counterpart for almost all those decks:
Maverick becomes Bant aggro or Vial Bant
DnT becomes UW tempo
Jund becomes Brug.
So yeah, Bs (alongside Fow) is a good enough reason for splashing Blue as a third or fourth colour, and lots of players are already doing it generating new/different arhetypes ( obviously new doesn't necessarily imply better here).
