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What the person was saying is that if you cycle a land in your main phase, you can dredge loam, retain priority and recast loam. In this way your opponent never has a chance to Clique the loam away. Because it's never in your hand at a moment when your opponent is able to cast Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
you can clique it if I draw a loam naturally, sure, but you'll never get it if I've already got it online. I can mainphase cycle to dredge, then immediately cast loam again before you have priority. That's why you don't dredge during your draw phase if you suspect cliques.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
edit: ninja'd =(
Well you play how many cyclers? 2? maybe 3? It's not uncommon not to have a cycler ready. I'm aware of the cycling/Loam saving trick though.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalek0
Something more visual what Keranos can do:
-He is indestructible and there is no common played card that can get rid of him. He will never be a creature unless we have a boardstate with Jace, Clique, Counterbalance etc. but then the game should be over anyways.
-Imagine this card against Liliana decks. Liliana is a very good card against us when combined with pressure. This guy beats Liliana and makes sure that she will never get to 6 loyalty. Every Swords to Plowshares, every Brainstorm will give us a Lightning Bolt that can target Liliana or remove other small creatures. Drawing a Land? Never mind, we draw another card. Opponents board of Liliana, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman against our board with only lands and this guy. I'm pretty sure after several turns, when the dusk settled there will only be Keranos remaining.
- He kills every threat of Jund besides Tarmogoyf if we don't have RIP.
- Jund plays zero cards in it's 75 that can remove it.
- Against Shardless BUG almost everything said about the Jund MU is true. And more: their Jace against our Keranos. I bet my money on Keranos.
- Against Death and Taxes. He kills every normal threat of the deck and. An added bonus is that if we have Keranos out and they play Cataclysm without some sick board state (Equipments or Aether Vial etc.) we are heavily favored.
The list could get on. He's a really good 1of for grindy MU's. Keranos is nothing backbreaking, he is just a very good sideboard card for grindy MU's. Yes a 3rd Entreat the Angels is also a very good Sideboard card, but i just don't like the clunkyness of 3 Entreat. There are also some nasty guys who have Slaughter Games against us and will name Entreat the Angels. I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket.
What have you been smoking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
vs Jund: If you haven't get run over by BBE and goyf from the start, you most likely broke a bunch of fetches to reduce your life total down to dangerous range by the time you have 5 lands. Does this God stop Jund's PFire combo? Please Tap out to play that God, so Jund can Choke you out or direct damage you out.
vs BUG: If BUG has Jace on the board, you're already in deep trouble. Why would BUG player allow you to resolve a God when he's been Jace-storming every turn? Yet, can your precious Keranos deal with TNN? I thought so.
vs Death and Taxes: Are you kidding me? As if you can just bypass Wasteland + Port, what about Flicker, Mangara + Karakas? Keep dreaming.
Generally 2, and if it's one then there's a dearth of intuitions and tolaria wests instead to help find it. Against a matchup like miracles that really doesn't have a way to directly disrupt the combo and doesn't have more than two pieces of hate anyway, it's one of the first weapons you try to set up--loam + thicket.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Keranos seems clunky, but really powerful if you resolve it. I like that it's actually a win condition that we can resolve through Gaddock Teeg (which has admittedly faded in popularity).
Why do you need to insult me? Low self esteem or something like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Normaly you don't get overrun by creatures of Jund. Hopefully you do also realize that Punishing Fire mostly pings for 1 Dmg a turn and is kinda slow. So naturally games tend to go long against Jund. Shardless BUG has 3-4 FoW, so normally i don't see any issues here. If Shardless BUG has a turn 3/4 Jace and is BS every turn and you have absolutely nothing, Keranos won't change anything. But to be fair there is no card out there that will win you the game.
Your arguments vs Death and Taxes show me that you maybe didn't play a lot against the mentioned decks. Ports and Wastelands are only an issue if they have Aether Vial ( less than 50% of the games). Otherwise it's impossible to apply real pressure and to tax our mana.
Mangara? Are you serious, who plays this card anymore. I can't remember the last time someone played it against me. Is outdated for Death and Taxes.
I don't say Keranos is the new bread&butter for this deck, he's a decent SB card that could replace something like a 3rd Entreat, Gideon etc.
Evidently Adryan has never heard of a card called Lightning bolt in Jund and he believed the games tend to go long every single time. Furthermore, he seemed to be oblivious about Choke. Based on his assessment of the match-up, or the misleading thereof, why would anyone be convinced of his argument regarding Keranos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Also, what does a Miracle thread have anything to do with Gideon? Why is this guy stuck in an age of associating Gideon with Legacy Miracles while making claims that people don't run Mangara in DnT?
You can make some arguments against Keranos, but it's definetely not that you are low on life or becuse of Lightning Bolt.
Based on what you are writing Jund is unbeatable, brutally fast and we are very quick dead on board. Only with endless luck we're capable of finding a Entreat before Turn 5 before we die in a flurry of Lightning Bolt.
Jund is a slow, grindy MU, normally games tend to go long. Some arguments can be made against Keranos, something like that he can be Pyroblasted on the Stack, but definetely not your arguments. Why do you want to keep all Lightning Bolts as a Jund player?
I don't associate Miralces with Gideon (which can be a sweet 1of against decks like Jund etc.; it's not bad). I said it"s a possible 1of in the Sb.
How does that have anything to do with Mangara, which is an outdated Maindeck (!) card? Do you understand the difference of a Maindeck card and a sweet 1of in the SB? Hopefully....
Maybe you should play more real games, instead of theorycrafting wrong all day. Your assumptions about how the Jund/ DT MU's play out are just wrong.
Choke is not a commonly played SB card (not good against Tempo, only decent) in Jund decks. On Magic Online it is, but metagame is different there... I could write nowa about how Choke is not a huge threat and how to play against it, but i'm getting tired.... Nevertheless i will happily read your answer, please make it full of MU analysis. Could you please write about something complex, like the mirror or games against Esper? How do these play out. No flurry of Lightning Bolts followed by a quick death, but lots of damage from fetchlands i guess ;)
I think he says strategically sensible things but the way he says them is so aggressive and generally annoying that I have him in my ignore list for a while. Every now and then someone quotes him (which makes me see the post) and I sometimes agree with what he says but get stressed reading that argumentative tone.
Keranos costs 5, and we usually only play 3 Jaces. I think that's the end of this discussion.
Yeah, however saucy his interactions with Top might be, at the end of the day, he costs five.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
So, speaking of cards that rock... Blue Elemental Blast.
lol. Well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I have seen PV video when playing miracles, he is a fan of jamming tops or counterbalances into daze as his theory is it will set them back a turn and the longer you wait, the more daze/pierces they might have. What is the take on this? Is it advisable to jam it or play around it?
Both. It's important to know when to jam and when to play around. Read your opponent, take a look at your hand and choose your role. It's very short from me because I gotta leave now - if you want a more detailed response, let me know - but the essence is portrayed above.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Greetings
I would almost never jam it. Dazing doesn't really set them back much at all. Sure the longer you wait the more Dazes/Pierces they will have, but even if you have multiple Counterbalances, would they rather have to double Pierce/Daze your turn 4 Counterbalance or would they rather Daze your turn 2 CB then Pierce your turn 3 CB? If you play around Pierce and Daze, that's a full 8 more cards that are nearly dead in their hands. If you start forcing them to 2-for-1 themselves then it gets pretty hard to lose to Delver decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Don't take his advice as "jam it into daze/pierce every time". There are times when you want to, and times when you don't. Knowing the difference is a difficult skill to master.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Actually, Lossett does that sometimes as well. I believe it's match-up dependent. For example, in Miracle vs RUG, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to jam CB onto the board, especially when mongoose is not in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
This topic is precisely the reason I hate PV's "PV’s Playhouse – Hard Decks" article so much. PV's understanding of Miracle is jamming CB onto the board, play 4 Jaces, therefore the decision tree is easier than Elves/Storm, therefore his rating is lower. When in fact it's not. To jam or not to jam, often the correct response is "it depends," which is equal if not harder than the corresponding decision Elves have to make. From Elves' perspective, the decision to glimpse or not to glimpse often is clear-cut dichotomy.
I'm sure there's scenarios now and again where it might make sense to just go for it, but I think those are mostly just against Combo decks that can threaten you before you have much mana online (Reanimator in particular). The only thing I can really think of against a Delver deck would be jamming a blindly drawn Terminus (when you have no Brainstorms in hand) or perhaps running a Brainstorm/Ponder into a potential Daze/Pierce. Other than those, what would be an example of a time when it's right to just jam something (particularly something vital like Counterbalance, Plow, or Top) against a Delver deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Think of this way, against RUG Delver in the SB games, your deck is full of cards like CB, removals, mass removals including EE, RiP... etc. It's perfectly fine for you to try to jam each hate onto the board, since it's very likely for you to draw another hate. Now, the down side is that you have to do so intelligently. In other words, doing so without exposing yourself too much to Stifle/Wasteland. Let's say you don't jam your CB in your hand, RUG proceeds to cantrip, to brainstorm/ponder, into more daze/spell pierce/stifle. One turn later, you draw another CB, another RiP, by the turn you start playing these enchantments with Mana up for Daze, them landing on the board might not matter since damages are already done. Of course, if opponent has Mongoose on the table, then this idea is less appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
That's just how the guy looks at Control in general. This is from his series on Control decks:Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...house-control/
Not knowing much about the format, and only playing on a whim with a deck that was handed to him, I think he just went with this general gameplan for Control decks with big bombs, which Miracles has in spades. The guy is apparently just so mechanically good at magic that he topped without even fully understanding how to play his deck.Quote:
Playing control comes down to mainly one thing: “do I use this now?”. If you can answer that correctly every time, then there isn’t much else you can mess up. Again, there is no right answer (if there was, Magic wouldn’t be very interesting would it), but, as a generalization, when in doubt, if you’re playing tapout control the answer is “yes”, and if you’re playing draw-go the answer is “no”. In Draw-go, you’re aiming to control the entire game - as such, you need to be more parsimonious with your resources because they might play something better at some point, wherever it is (and they will have time, because the game will go long) and then you will need those same cards to answer that. In Standard UB, for example, patience is the key word - as long as you’re only taking one or two damage a turn, then the game greatly favors you. Remember the graph? The longer it goes, the more likely you are to win, so you have no reason to panic and answer their threats while leaving yourself vulnerable to their follow up. If you can afford to, take damage for a couple turns and then answer their threats when you get to a point where you already have an answer for their follow up - try to get to a point where they can’t win, and buy your time with life points if need be.
With Tapout, things are different - you aim to control the game up to a certain point, in which you’ll then drop a card that is more powerful than anything your opponent is doing, so you no longer care what he does. It doesn’t matter you have no answers for his next play, because his next play most likely cannot beat your big, splashy play. Tapout control decks are, in general, among the easiest deck to play in Magic - they almost play themselves in the way that you just have to look at whatever is the most expensive card you can play this turn and play that, and it’ll be correct most of the time.
I'm completely sure Paulo doesn't see Miracles as a tapout deck. Miracles is a pure draw- go style deck, which has some game ending spells where we need to tapout, but that doesn't make it tap out Control. Tap Out Control are some Nic Fit Decks or Titan decks in previous Standard formats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
In general, of course it's more difficult then that, if you your hand is full of gas, let's say " CB, Clique, Jace, BS, Swords" its correct to play every non removal spell against Delver decks into Spell Pierce/Daze.
Once the RUG player realizes that I'm not playing into his Dazes, he is unlikely to keep more Dazes on his cantrips. Even if I have multiple answers or multiple bombs, there's no guarantee that they will resolve and there's no guarantee that they won't just drop another threat. Do I want to trade my Swords to Plowshare with a Delver or do I want to trade it with a Spell Pierce? Our spells are powerful enough that we can completely take over the game if we are just allowed to resolve them. In other words, there's no hurry.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Take game 3 of the finals with Braverman verses American Delver. He has a bunch of land in hand; he has two removal pieces. What's the harm in just jamming the REB when he has a Plow for backup? He jams the REB and gets Dazed. Ok, that's fine, he still has the Plow. Delver gets Plowed, life moves on. Now fast forward ten or so turns and Braverman loses the game to a True-Name Nemesis. Would he have rather still had that REB in hand when TNN was cast? What is more valuable: the REB that Braverman jammed or the Daze that would have still been sitting in Majors' hand?
Miracles is far from a tapout style Control deck. Most of our interaction happens at Instant speed, Jace is the biggest exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Miracles is completely tapout. "Leaving mana up" usually means 1 land for Spell Pierce or a Top activation. Not that the Top couldn't be activates sorcery speed; it's just more information if you wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Draw-go decks run an extremely limited amount of sorceries. Miracles has a playset of Top, a playset of Counterbalance, a playset of Jace, and if you can't combo them with Top, 6 miracles that are sorceries, as well. All these card advantage permanents are extremely powerful and swingy, and you're left with the decision of whether or not you "go for it" basically every game you play. That's nothing like Cuneo Blue from back in the 90's. How can this deck be called draw-go when there's only 4 counterspells in the deck that cost mana?
In the end, it's irrelevant, and if it makes you feel better to call it a draw-go deck, feel free. My mistake for even bringing it up.
SCM (0-2) and Clique (1-3) are draw-go cards too and so are EtA (1-3) & Terminus (3-4) - more often than not players will cast these via Top during the opponents' turn. Moreover 4 is the absolute minimum for non-FOW counter magic slots imo. I see a lot of 2 CS + 3 Pierce lists. FOW is nice because it allows you to tap out and still have counter magic to push through our bombs, however in a meta full of Spell Pierces, I'm unlikely to do so unless I have to. I'll rather keep my mana up for the spells listed above and have them be impatient to "go off" and start a counter war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
So yes, to me Miracles seems to be a pretty straight forward draw-go kinda deck.
You need to clarify your definition of draw-go. Your paragraph isn't doing a good job of conveying it. As to your understanding, only PV runs 4 Jaces, some builds run 3 CB, it's not accurate to lump everything as playset of this and playset of that. Miracle cards are sorcery in the sense that yes you can Envelop it. Hard-cast them as regular sorcery is definitely not the first option, don't need me to remind you that. In conclusion, it's Definitely Not about whether or not you would "Go for it" as if you're trying to glimpse. Please try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
"Draw-go" implies you play instants that allow you to hold up mana for counterspells because if something gets through, you end up with stranded counterspells in hand while you dedicate your mana toward dealing with the board. That's not what's happening here, or in Legacy in general. This is a card advantage permanent deck that has the same incidental 4x Force + 4x cheap counter that every deck in legacy with blue mana is running. Calling Miracles "draw-go" simply because "tap-out" sounds like "dummy deck" to you is silly and can lead to misplays, especially when it comes to things like resolving Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
In some Matchups Miracles is a draw go deck, in others it isn't. Against grindier decks, you tap out a lot. If tapping out could lose you the game (ie your opponent attacks you with a 20/20 flyer, storms you out, show and tells Griselbrand or just slams Jace, the Mindsculptor) then you just don't. I don't see how this a hard to grasp concept.
Neither do I.
Just because I enjoy pointless arguments…
There is absolutely no way this deck is "tappout control" if you are playing with Cliques and any amount of Countermagic. But guess what? It also isn't "draw-go!" Both of those terms represent variants of control decks that are skewed to tons of counterspells and instant-speed answers or control decks that play permanents and sorcery-speed answers. This deck has a healthy amount of both, so i don't think either label is correct.
What do people think about Philip Braverman's list running 2 Counterbalances?
Quote:
22 LANDS
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
4 CREATURES
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
25 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
9 OTHER SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterbalance
SIDEBOARD
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Batterskull
1 Mountain
1 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Red Elemental Blast
I don't care what people say about his 2 hour finals match at 1 a.m… He is the best Miracles player I have ever seen or played against. I watched him outplay the mirror all weekend against well-known grinders. As far as his list goes, I think it's solid. Ponders and Snapcasters increase consistency. I'd probably like to see 1 more Counterbalance.
What would you cut, a Spell Pierce? I feel like running 2 CB with more search will help you find what you need a little bit better and not rely on the soft lock crutch of CB that a lot of miracle players seem to do. I like the way he has it set up personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
With how many Miracles mirrors I've been playing I honestly have been considering going up to 4 balances. That card is what tends to dominate the matchup every time in my experience. (Yeah Jace and Entreats matter too, but a landed balance and especially with top this always feels like game over. Jaces and (low) entreats can still be managed, plus they come down later in the game so you have more time) That said, I'm still on 3 balances.
I don't disagree with this; I would be fine playing his deck if someone handed it to me for sure. Maybe jam at least 1 more balance in the side?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
I took down another local dual land event with the traditional Uwr list getting a Volcanic. I played a Blood Moon instead of a Pyroclasm, as last time there was Cloudpost and I expected some Jund and lands, but it wasn't relevant.
My matches went like this:
Reanimator: 2-0
Bw Taxes 2-0
Bug Delver 2-1
Bw Taxes 2-0
ID
Reanimator 2-1.
Imperial Painter 2-0
Jund 2-1.
I played 2 Venser woth two Karakas, and Venser was fantastic.
Just missed top 8 in Dallas with X-1-1 and some shoddy breakers to end up 10th. Joe is crushing in my stead though, so it's not all bad. Drew with Jund and misplayed to lose to some four color cascade deck.
good job Ryan. 10th is A Lot better than 9th. 9th has the worst feeling of all. What's up with Blue Blast and no EE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Lossett finished 2nd, but that's still an incredible feat. Does that mean he'll have enough points to make a run for SCG's season 2?
Yeah thanks. :) Still didn't feel too great though. My good friend was actually the 9th place. All day we were thinking that X-1-1 would probably be a lock, but I guess there ended up being too many X-1s that were able to ID the last round unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I'm not a big fan of EE, Terminus and Supreme Verdict cover most things and Disenchant mops up the rest. I don't really want more zeros for Counterbalance. Blue Elemental Blast was somewhat of a meta thing. Goblins and Burn are both fairly common here and I think that both can be rough matchups. BEB is also a real house against Sneak and Show, which I expected to be one of the more common combo decks.
Yeah. I was rooting for him; he got pretty unlucky on some of his Tops. I do think I heard the commentators mention that Joe looks like he's in a good position to really rack up some points for the Championship though.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn