Life from the Loam. You dredge him back every turn and helps against land hate. Also helps get back Misty Rainforest and Crop Rotation fodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
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Life from the Loam. You dredge him back every turn and helps against land hate. Also helps get back Misty Rainforest and Crop Rotation fodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Yea seriously, warping wail looks like the real deal. I think I'll do the same and jam 4!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Loam is pretty bad when you dredge into an original Eldrazi. Sylvan Scrying is a strong 2cmc if you're looking to add more. I jammed 1-2x of those for a little while.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
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I play one in the board, and it is quite handy. The real problem card for me has been Magus of the Moon. Blood Moon is easy to deal with postboard with K Grip. But Magus, less so. I've never had room in my board for cards like Dismember, so the only way I've been able to answer him is O Stone, All Is Dust, or Ugin. With Warping Wail replacing Exploration in my deck, getting to 7-8 land drops vs Stompy seems much less realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
But with Warping Wail upping my maindeck game vs combo, it might be feasible to add in a sideboard Dismember or two. My current board is:
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Trinisphere
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Krosan Grip
1x Oblivion Stone
Not sure what to cut without seeing Warping Wail in action first, but I'm guessing I could stand to lose 1x Trap.
Not sure whether to cut Trini or a Sphere though; Sphere's *much* better than Trini on the draw, but Trini is better overall. I think it will probably come down to whether WW helps me win enough game 1s vs Storm, which will in turn determine how likely I am to be on the play if we go to game 3.
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This is exactly what I was complaining about last page :tongue: I already made some cuts to your board to fit in Dismember, but I'm only running 2 and that sometimes doesn't feel adequate. Oblivion Stone obviously works but it can be killed off and also takes out your artifacts. It might still be the best option but I feel like that's a bit of a tough trade. I'm also thinking of possibly running Beast Within: I sort of feel like I can manage the 3/3 drawback due to the presence of Maze of Ith, and Beast gets rid of hatebears, planeswalkers, and anything else that looks at you funny. I'm going to be streaming a little later today so I think I may give them a whirl: nothing lost with digital cards, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Beast Within does sound intriguing. I will definitely need to test with that. I do like that it takes out all of the core problem cards in Stompy: Moon, Magus, and Chalice. I would gladly see a vanilla 3/3 over any of those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
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Got some testing in today while streaming. Split 6 games, which is a little disappointing. Still on the fence about Kozilek, the Great Distortion. I had one game against a Loam deck where I used him to fill my hand, then repeatedly used Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to dig for my Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Warping Wail keeps getting better and better. Seriously, you guys. Buy four and play them. In the worst case, cut one.
Beast Within was a pleasant surprise today and I think you'll feel the same way since we both run Maze of Ith. Even without Maze, hitting a Young Pyromancer in the absence of a Wail is fantastic because if the Grixis player is able to cast even one instant or sorcery, he's already at parity with the Beast, and any more than that and he'll outstrip the damage the Beast would do to you. With a Maze, though, Beast Within is pure value: it also gets rid of Deathrite Shaman. I'm gonna play it at my LGS tonight and see how it works.
I've been on the fence about trying to fit a fourth in. Mostly because I'm honestly not sure what to cut to make room for it. Unfortunately, I haven't had much of a chance to actually test with it yet (a few games between rounds of drunk EDH aren't the best data). But it sounds like it's exceeding my already-high expectations. Would you say that it's been good enough for you so far that I should seriously look a difficult cut to make room for a 4th?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
And how. Today at my LGS featured the first match where I actually boarded all of them out. I was playing against StifleNaught. That is the first match where Warping Wail actually wasn't good. Here's my list right now:
ARTIFACT
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
CREATURE
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
INSTANT
3 Crop Rotation
4 Warping Wail
LAND
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
5 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Vesuva
1 Windswept Heath
PLANESWALKER
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SORCERY
4 Ancient Stirrings
SIDEBOARD
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Beast Within
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
Obviously, our lists are very similar: yours was very much the inspiration for mine. Our philosophies differ slightly: I value Sensei's Divining Top more than you do, and you value Crop Rotation more than I do. For me, for a card to be a 4-of, I pretty much have to never wish the card was something else. I often don't mind drawing a second Top because then I can draw, or draw and fetch, with abandon and not lose access to card quality. This sort of reasoning is why I'm still running 4 Warping Wail right now: minus an out-of-left-field matchup, I pretty much never regret drawing it. In the worst case scenario, you can always just make a 1/1 idiot with it. That having been said, I can very much see reasoning behind dropping it to 3 copies. But especially in our mono-green lists, with access to Ancient Stirrings I can't imagine a compelling reason to not run at least 3. In other words, I won't tell you sticking to 3 is wrong.
For me, and I imagine for you, most of my list is pretty set in stone. Here are the wiggle spots for me:
1. Kozilek, the Great Distortion. I had a few more games today where he drew me five or more cards. I love the fact that he counters most of the cards that opponents would use to get rid of him. Menace kind of sucks, but it still makes him harder to chump block. He still hasn't been bonkers, and I've still sided him out several times, but I still don't have a great opinion in either direction. For now, he stays until I can have more games with him.
2. Karn Liberated. Karn is in a very weird spot for me. He's colorless. He can win games by himself. He's cheaper than Ugin. He handles things Ugin can't. But there are also several matchups where he just kind of blows. Ultimately, I think Ugin is a touch stronger. At the same time, though, I've had matchups where I boarded out Karns because he sucked and kept Ugin, and there have been matchups where I boarded out Ugins because he sucked and kept Karn (Lands, in particular). Perhaps this is a sign that both planeswalkers are actually fine and I can just trade them out for more appropriate kill spells as necessary.
3. Beast Within. This is what I was alluding to earlier before I went to play at my LGS today. Magus of the Moon is a pain in the ass to kill when you don't have access to blue or red. I like most of the other common matchups in mono-green, but Magus is an asshole. Today, I took out a Magus, a Liliana of the Veil, and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Is it better than Dismember? I don't know. But with Maze of Ith the card can actually be pretty unfair, and I like that. And hey, it's another 3-CMC spell I can potentially pitch to Kozilek if I keep using him.
The other million dollar question I've been thinking about is whether or not those Karns might actually just be better if they were additional copies of Nulamog. Sure, it's more expensive, but holy shit is the card strong. As always, your mileage may vary.
I've been loving my list on MTGO, 3Spheres is killer for the meta I've been facing.
Dryad Arbor might get the boot though, not a card I've been feeling.
Might want an extra Eldrazi. Also noticed that I usually (more often than not) wish for Newlamog more-so than Emmy. His ability to exile is just completely ridiculous.
EDIT: Last 10 matches, 7-3 (not bad for someone who picked up the deck a couple days ago)
At two mana I run 2-3 Sylvan Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Guys thanks for the feedback. Last night you got me thinking about the two suggested cards: Loam and sylvan library. Both felt very strong at 2cmc, as promised. So I took into consideration Booze’s advice on the old eldrazi graveyard triggers and quickly threw together a list without them:
Land (25)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva
Artifact (8)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Creature (8)
3x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
Enchantment (3)
3x Exploration
Sorcery (8)
4x Life from the Loam
4x Show and Tell
Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
The Distortion Loam felt very sporty, like it wants to race more than control, with 7 acceleration cards in the MB it is fast, very fast. My hand was never empty and I was just powering through the deck with amazing speed – too fast sometimes as I made many misplays with loam specifically. Exploration felt awesome, since I could avoid drawing it (sensei + brainstorm) or just pitch it to kozilek, even 2 on the board is sometimes fine with loam. Furthermore I am so excited to play exploration in UG, since this is something I wanted to do for a while now.
The build seems very resilient to hand disruption and land destruction, but opens up to graveyard hate – which could be fine as you can use loam aggressively or passively. This also means they have to bring in graveyard hate from SB they previously didn’t have to. In this case you don’t have to dredge that much, right? Or on the other hand dredge it intentionally in response to gy hate?
No emrakul - Most of the time the opponent still takes his turn, when I have kozilek out, but quickly forfeits, when I counter their first or second spell – muahaha. The beauty with loam is that you always have a 2cmc to pitch, just tap sensei or play brainstorm and voila. In any event I usually just beat down with titan and kozilek for the win, which is more than enough – emrakul seems like overkill, although the deck could play a copy of it, as you could avoid dredging it with sensei, right?
In any case I’m not exactly sure what I’m doing here or if the proposed build is balanced enough to be taken seriously. I didn’t play that many matches and I could be wrong about the whole thing and i was just lucky with the hands and draws i got… Looking forward to your valued suggestions and comments.
One of my LGS had four foils ones so I snap purchased them. Then I opened my two boxes of Oath and got two more foil ones. Does anyone need any foils? I don't need six; but I'll take it as an omen that I should be playing this card! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
in the mean time i went all in on the lands plan and am testing something like this:
Land (29)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva
Creature (7)
2x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
Sorcery (7)
4x Life from the Loam
3x Show and Tell
Artifact (5)
3x Mox Diamond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (4)
4x Exploration
Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
any thoughts?
I actually am started to form a list that runs similar to turbo lands. It is interesting thus far. But horn of greed it hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
If you're going this route, you might want to consider Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and/or Haven of the Spirit Dragon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
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Players on MTGO are so freaking slow OMG....
I try to keep an relatively normal pace but wow... Not even in real life people are this slow..
I do really like what the deck is doing for me though, extremely powerful.
I used to play Dryad Arbor but cut it for Khalni Garden, and haven't looked back. It's nice to be able to get a creature with Crop Rotation, and although the Garden is not fetch-able it can be reused with Vesuva and doesn't set you back a land when you block (a huge deal for 12 post). It does make Green Sun's Zenith less useful but we don't have the space for a GSZ toolbox anyway and I've come to question the value of playing that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I, for one, love GSZ. Playing Titan 5-8 is just amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
I'm gonna try Khalni Garden though. Forgot that land existed.
I know it's probably heresy, but I'm leaning towards cutting a Top to make room for the 4th Warping Wail. I don't want to cut an Eldrazi, land, or sweeper. This leaves me the following:
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Crop Rotation
4x Expedition Map
4x Candelabra
2x Top
Ancient Stirrings is the backbone of the deck. As long as I have a green source, it's almost always the best possible topdeck at any point.
Crop Rotation is a bit more dangerous because of countermagic, but it's still insane at any point. It stifles Wasteland, finds silver bullets at instant speed, and upgrades my extra Forests. I know some people don't play the full 4x, but I think it's far too powerful not to.
All things being equal, I'd rather see an Expedition Map than Top 90% of the time. It's not as fast as Crop, but I'd rather find the precise card I need than hope to get lucky in my top 3.
I could maybe see cutting a Candelabra. I played with 3x for a long time. But the raw power of Candelabra, especially in multiples, makes me extremely hesitant to cut it.
Since I don't play fetches (I hate Stifle and want guaranteed basics on the draw for K Grip), Top has been good but not as good for me as it is for other people. Even at 2x, it's not a card I ever want to see multiples of. I already have a tremendous amount of card selection between Ancient Stirrings and 8x straight-up tutors. Going down to 1x is painful, but it seems like the right call, assuming Warping Wail is as powerful as I hope.
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I'm on the UG build, and have cut candelabras down to only one copy. It's often one of the first cards I side out after game 1. Sometimes I'm even considering to cut it completely! A few weeks ago, Mr. Kassari wrote something about candelabra and why he doesn't play a single copy, and it sounds convincing. Candelabra can be huge, sure. But without Cloudposts in play it's often a dead card, and mana fixing isn't that relevant in most of the games I play. I like to see a needle in my starting 7, since it helps to protect my locus lands. What do the other UG guys think about candelabra? And how many copies do you play? Thanks!
Candelabra has helped me get double green for too many early Prime Times, and helped me nullify too many Rishadan Ports, for me to think much about cutting it entirely. I typically run two copies in UG, though I side one of them out fairly frequently. I'm aware this may be me being biased by my own experience, though, and I'll have to check out Kassari's reasoning and probably give it a try at Legacy night some week.
Well i could only afford one candle so i'm running one obviously. i agree with thelastbeast that mana fixing comes up often enough to matter. i'm running trinket with EE so the candle fits nicely in the deck, when i need it i fetch it. i also board it out in many games... Candle can win games and i think we shouldn't cut it completely. Additionally many players are afraid of it and tend to treat it as a high priority target. In this respect you can get rid of removal or counters to clear the way, as described in the primer... and if they leave it laying around the battlefield it can backfire on them very quickly!
I have two candelabras and usually play both in my UG build. You could get away with one if your playing trinket mage(s). I had one candle for the longest time until I stockpiled enough credit to get a 2nd. There are games where I just whoops I win when I've drawn a candelabra. I've also had the scenario where I've drawn it and it does absolutely nothing. You haven't experienced ug post until your opponent plays choke and you start untapping your islands with a Candelabra. Also, drawing the pair of candels is always bad. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Can Courser of Kruphix replace Oracle of Mul Daya?
I rarely go for Oracle with GSZ (when I do its just so I can have a blocker). I'm asking because Courser gains life when you lay down a land.
As a 1-of target sure. I would like more but the double green cost could be problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Personally I like oracle for the extra land drops plus access to the top deck. Courser does give access to top deck but the 1 life each land is likely less relevant than the ramp that oracle can provide. 1 life gain is fine as well, but we already have Glimmerpost which can is still more efficient if we are getting extra land drops anyway. The only real upside past that for courser is the bolt proof back end. Both are likely fine in a GSZ build as a 1 of.
I'm curious why you don't like drawing multiple candles? In my experience (with mono-G), multiple candles are extremely powerful and enable huge amounts of mana with only a few posts out. For example, 2x candles + 2x Cloudposts = Ugin.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
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I think it dependson the fact that you are talking about some sort of "5 cards combo" (double untapped post + double candelabra in play and ugin in hand) that it's not so common to see in your starting or so hand. Double candelabra + single post = why am i running these expensive ancient cards in my nice deck? (i love ancient cards btw)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
It's not exactly a crazy 5-card "combo" here. We're just talking about having a couple of Cloudposts in play, which is kind of what the entire deck is designed to do. And I'm not just talking about having a T3 Ugin with a sweet opener. I'm talking about situations like being down to 2x Posts because your others have been hit by Wasteland and you desperately need mana to wipe a board full of creatures. Topdecking a second candle midgame so I can immediately cast Ugin or Dust that's been stuck in hand has saved my life so many times I can't even count. Or to be able to cast Kozilek or Ulamog off a meh board like 1x Cloud, 2x Glimmers, and a Forest. Basically, I'm just talking about normal game situations. Candelabra lets you do more with less. Multiples, even more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
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this thread is confusing. Two totally different decks getting discussed in one thread, really should be a separate mono-green thread.
I think you're right about this. Even if both plans are to kill with Eldrazi I think the decks are too different to stay in the same thread. As much as it pains me to admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
EDIT: As much as I love 3Sphere, I think the CMC is too weird for the deck.
It shouldn't be an issue if people provide the courtesy of saying which version they play. Most people specify, as TheBoozeCube did above. If there are a lot of changes or new tech, a deck list is helpful. UG and Mono-G are very similar, and the Post archetype hasn't been standardized, aside from the Locus lands in tandem with Primeval Titan and usually other ways to find lands and pre-emptively stop Wasteland. If you've been following this thread for a while, you'll remember all sorts of builds and different splashes Rock Lee played, and some of those were more different than Mono-G but didn't need different threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
agreed, i would have to follow two thread instead of one. and besides the thread is more alive with our little green friends chatting on it so enjoyably. at least we have the same win conditions...Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
i had an interesting game yesterday against merfolk. post board he put in gilded drake. it won the game getting my titan into 4x wasteland. this seems like a real hate card for SnT. Did/t see it before...
Ouch is all I have to say about that. At least you still got 1 trigger off primeval titan. Would have been nice if he tutored wasteland and you top deck needle. Haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
The decks are certainly similar enough and each variant can borrow from the other to an extent. Show and tell turn 3 into natural order turn 4 for be delightful at worst.
I am finally trading out of Sneak and Show, into 12 post. Is there any reason to keep Force of Wills? I do not see lists run them very often, but if they are worth keeping, I will hold onto them. Thoughts?
As far as finance goes force of will maintains its price and usually goes up of anything. I would hold onto it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
I thought that same thing, but I meant more "Are there 12 post lists playing Force and this point in it's evolution?" I see a lot of lists are not even playing blue any more, so I thought I would ask. I would lean more toward a non blue version but I like Show and Tell as a card, and cannot afford 3 Candleabras at this timeQuote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
IMO you don't need FoW at this moment, and candelabra "only" as a one-off. I'm not absolutly sure to keep it in the deck, but just read the last 2-3 pages ;-) but you should run at least 3 copies of Flusterstorm in the sideboard to fight storm..Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
If you have Belcher and oops all spells in your local meta, it would help to have it. If not flusterstorm and other counters like spell pierce are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503