[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

Planar Void. Boy, that hurts...

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Well ok. Does not change anything in the sb for us.

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

And the 4th Ichorid, I'd say...
But, if you are getting nice results... Who am I, after all? xD

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4th Ichorid over 4th Bloodghast all night long. Ichorid beats harder, dies on his own and is hasted all the time. Bloodghast needs an additional sac outlet to be useful due to its inability to block and is only hasted when it's game over anyways. You need to have Undiscovered Paradise in the starting seven otherwise the Ghasts are just Ichorid fodder. Keeping a land in hand will deny your LEDs. Dakmor Salvage may be an option but I don't think it's worth it.

I totally see their worth in combination with Dread Return and perhaps Sun Titan to bring back a land and the Ghasts return. But I think this might be only really useful in Vintage with Bazaar of Bagdad available.

In Legacy I would max out Ichorid first. He just grinds better. If more reccurring threats are needed: Ashen Ghoul + lands in lists without DR and Nether Shadow in lists with DR.

But then again...I never tested Ghasts in LED Dredge. I only used them some games in Vintage and Manaless Dredge and only liked them in the above mentioned manner. And I am not even using them in Vintage anymore...

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

The issue I have with that argument is Firestorm isn't a linear answer to Death right shaman, it's a one mana Wrath of God and an outlet for your hand that savages fair decks as well.

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The truly fair decks are bringing in hate like Crypt or RiP or whatever, because they can't beat dredge without those tools. With that in mind, I can't look at Firestorm as anything other than an overcompensation.

Can you think of a more devastating use for Firestorm than Elves? That's a great example in my opinion and it illustrates my point. Under no circumstances have I ever needed Firestorm against Elves. I've brought in a full play set for games two/three in the past, but it made no difference. I either drew it and wrecked them in an embarrassing fashion or I didn't draw it and I simply wrecked them. Either way, it's an excellent match up, and I could have beat them even if those four cards were Darksteel Relic. That's usually true of anything you're killing with Firestorm. There are a couple exceptions like Thalia or Lavamancer, but creature strategies typically fall prey to us, and I would rather handle those guys with Darkblast.

Maybe if hatebear.dec comes back then Firestorm will have a place in my 75.

I put some Leylines back in my board due to TinFins. It's definitely the most hyped deck right now and reanimator strategies were difficult for us before they granted their creatures haste and finished with a storm kill.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

4th Ichorid over 4th Bloodghast all night long. Ichorid beats harder, dies on his own and is hasted all the time. Bloodghast needs an additional sac outlet to be useful. ..... Dakmor Salvage may be an option but I don't think it's worth it.

I totally see their worth in combination with Dread Return. ..... and Nether Shadow in lists with DR.

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Bloodghast isn't good enough for LED-Dredge unless you're running 4x Dread Return and lots of Griselbrand.
Otherwise, Icky is best due to it working with Bridges much better.

Manaless dredge has a version that works well with Dakmor & Ghasts, but that's Manaless - it aims almost entirely to get a Dread return'd Griselbrand into play due to a lack of LED/Faithless etc. acceleration.
It's aim is to get 3 creatures into play. I would think LED-Dredge has enough acceleration not to need this tech, so it can afford to drop Ghast altogether.

Honestly a lot of the argument over what cards should be main decked in what version of the deck and such are getting kind of funny. I honestly feel the best route to go is make a binder and fill it full of the 'Good stuffs' that can work in the deck and change your 75 depending on what did well at the last 2-3 high profile events. As for Ghast vs Ichorid, I feel right now that Ichorid is much better, but not too long ago before DRS, Extirpate/Surgical were huge and I played 2-3 Ichorid, 2-3 Ghast, 1-2 Shadow simply to have recursive diversity. It is all relative, I do believe though, that when you post a list in this thread, a basic rundown of the meta you play in would be nice to suggestions can be given accordingly.

Until people are maindecking Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, you shouldn't dilute your maindeck to answer sideboard cards.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I put some Leylines back in my board due to TinFins. It's definitely the most hyped deck right now and reanimator strategies were difficult for us before they granted their creatures haste and finished with a storm kill.

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Yeah, I think Leyline of the Void needs to fit in the sideboard right now. TinFins kinda sums the nightmare for Dredge, Reanimator and Storm in the same deck. Also, Firestorm isn't needed maindeck. It's sideboard, because it's pretty much useless in many matchups.

This is my latest list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
1 Griselbrand
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Putrid Imp has been working just fine. I never run out of Ichorid food, so it has not been a problem. Cut Elesh Norn from the sideboard, because Firestorms are enough to deal with creatures. Still, Iona is there, for mono-coloured decks and Combo in general.

Any comments or suggestions?

I'm looking for sideboard options for a manaless variant. Here's my current list;

Creatures (43)
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex

Enchantments (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Instants (1)
1x Contagion

Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

Sideboard (15)
4x Unmask
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Contagion

I have no way to deal w/ artifacts/enchantments :/ Any options I'm missing?

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Originally Posted by muffunz

I'm looking for sideboard options for a manaless variant. Here's my current list;

Creatures (43)
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex

Enchantments (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Instants (1)
1x Contagion

Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

Sideboard (15)
4x Unmask
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Contagion

I have no way to deal w/ artifacts/enchantments :/ Any options I'm missing?

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You may find more help over in the Manaless Ichorid thread, friend. 'Round these parts, we like our Cephalid Coliseums ;-)

I don't think you guys understood what I meant. I'm saying Firestorm should not be in your 75 at all.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I don't think you guys understood what I meant. I'm saying Firestorm should not be in your 75 at all.

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I don't feel like Firestorm meshes well with LED dredge either. Sure it can kill a Delver or a Deathrite Shaman, but for game two we are more worried about fighting Leylines, RiPs, and Extractions. Killing Scavening Ooze is all good and everything, but MoM always makes that tough for us. Maverick is kind of at a lull anyway.

With LED dredge, to really make Firestorm effective you must discard some kind of business spell like Careful Study, Land, LED, and etc.

I doubt any of you are going to like this, but I've been working on a list that had LED in it until a few hours ago, using the basic shell of the deck. Here's where I'm at right now-I'm sorry for using Chains of Mephistopheles, I guess it's a St. Louis thing? Regardless, Manabond has a few upsides to being used in the Putrid Imp spot, mostly opening us up to things like Wasteland and Life from the Loam. Bloodghast makes more sense here than Ichorid with so few black creatures and more land drops, and the deck can dredge a Grave-Troll and hard cast it to win behind Wasteland recursion if the normal 'free creatures and mind twist' doesn't work in your favor. I'm probably shooting in the dark here, but I've been playing dredge since before Bridge from Below was a card, and won a Nationals invite with dredge in '07, so I would like to think I know a few things about the archetype. The sideboard is a mess. I've devoted most of my time to the first 60, and most sideboard choices are metagame calls anyway.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Manabond
2 Dread Return
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Life from the Loam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Angel of Despair
1 Karakas

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Originally Posted by laststepdown

I doubt any of you are going to like this, but I've been working on a list that had LED in it until a few hours ago, using the basic shell of the deck. Here's where I'm at right now-I'm sorry for using Chains of Mephistopheles, I guess it's a St. Louis thing? Regardless, Manabond has a few upsides to being used in the Putrid Imp spot, mostly opening us up to things like Wasteland and Life from the Loam. Bloodghast makes more sense here than Ichorid with so few black creatures and more land drops, and the deck can dredge a Grave-Troll and hard cast it to win behind Wasteland recursion if the normal 'free creatures and mind twist' doesn't work in your favor. I'm probably shooting in the dark here, but I've been playing dredge since before Bridge from Below was a card, and won a Nationals invite with dredge in '07, so I would like to think I know a few things about the archetype. The sideboard is a mess. I've devoted most of my time to the first 60, and most sideboard choices are metagame calls anyway.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Manabond
2 Dread Return
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Life from the Loam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Angel of Despair
1 Karakas

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No offense intended but you have none of the explosiveness that most of the lists have now. I am not using LED atm because I don't have them, however, I still use studies, faithless, and breakthrough. Much of the power of the deck comes from being faster than your opponent or their hate. Your list seems designed to be grindy, without resilience.

Sorry to change the topic, but how do you guys feel on griselbrand in this deck as a DR target? Haven't been able to get much testing with it.

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Originally Posted by rw1347

Sorry to change the topic, but how do you guys feel on griselbrand in this deck as a DR target? Haven't been able to get much testing with it.

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Well he can theoretically dredge 60 cards if you have the standard 12 dredgers in your deck.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Well he can theoretically dredge 60 cards if you have the standard 12 dredgers in your deck.

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I tested it for a bit after Avacyn Restored was released, and I wasn't very impressed. It was fairly easy to dredge your entire deck, but if you are resolving a DR you should be winning the game anyway. The vast majority of the time it was a "win-more" card, so I eventually went back to FKZ*.

*meta call, I'm in agreement with the zero MD DR targets plan for larger tournaments.

I feel like rebuilding my stolen LED Dredge deck, I miss it too much. It would wreck my meta since no one plays graveyard hate... At all...

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Originally Posted by Fortunae

I tested it for a bit after Avacyn Restored was released, and I wasn't very impressed. It was fairly easy to dredge your entire deck, but if you are resolving a DR you should be winning the game anyway. The vast majority of the time it was a "win-more" card, so I eventually went back to FKZ*.

*meta call, I'm in agreement with the zero MD DR targets plan for larger tournaments.

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At times I can see it being win more, but with how the popularity of sneak and show is getting, feel like it could be viable. Was thinking about running both FKZ and Grisel main deck, going to try to test with it today.
A main reason he came to mind was if you have him in hand and a few dredgers, and the opponent drops show and tell and drops anything it will give you a better answer to their grisel, or can even give you a massive dredge you need to set up for your next turn to hit a FKZ if you are staring down and emrakul. He can even help out as a DR target if you putter out on dredgers (anyone who has played this deck knows that awful feeling).

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I feel like rebuilding my stolen LED Dredge deck, I miss it too much. It would wreck my meta since no one plays graveyard hate... At all...

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lucky.... lol

I am thinking of building this deck. could anyone give me a standard list that i should try to build?

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

I am thinking of building this deck. could anyone give me a standard list that i should try to build?

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Read the opening post and look for a version called quadlazer. Adjust your sideboard and you're good to go.