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Your deck looks more like the classic with tutor board. It's quite some time since i've seen sofai in stoneforge builds. Are you seeing merfolks and goblins in your meta?
With the rising of merfolk decks, what is your usual gameplan? They have an awful lot of lords and naming vial with revoker also hits us. I guess Humility is strong but only if we manage to find equipment first. Humility can even be better for them as they have manlands that remain 2/2.
Here's my report of my 6-2 record at SCG Buffalo, granting me a 25th place finish!
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...eath-amp-Taxes
A tournament report from my new local, Tuesday night Legacy. 15 players, 4 rounds.
I was wondering what to play and was stuck between Doomsday Maniac combo and D&T. My mate asked me if he could borrow my Underground Seas and Flooded Strands. Death & Taxes it is! Gave me a good feeling inside, always great to play the deck that got you into Legacy, and which is my pet deck and my favourite. I took the following:
Main (60)
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mangara of Corondor
1 Batterskull
Sideboard (15)
2 Oust
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithing Needle
I wanted to try out the 12th place GP Ghent list. I usually play something that is much closer to Finn's list, with 2 Jotun Grunt's maindeck, and Swords of x and y. But I thought I would give it a go. Verdict at the end of the report.
I love Enlightened Tutor sideboards, so I always go with them. Added 2 Oust because I was expecting an aggro creature-based meta.
Round 1 vs Hypergenesis 2-0
Game 1
I called it while shuffling up, but he wouldn't confirm. I just had that feeling I was against combo. We both keep our 7. He goes turn 1 land, SSG, SSG, Show and Tell into Emrakul, and I drop a Wasteland. My turn I drop the Karakas I had in my opener, bounce Emrakul and Waste his land. He's down to 2 cards and doesn't draw into mana fast enough, and I land a Thalia and a Stoneforge fetching Batterskull on turns 2 and 3 respectively. He scoops.
Out: 4 Serra Avenger, 4 Mangara of Corondor,
In: 4 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 COP: Red
Game 2
He mulls to 4 and simply says "go". I Enlightened Tutor at the end of his second turn into Ensnaring Bridge, then drop Canonist, Thalia and Revoker naming Griselbrand on turns 2, 3 and 4 in that order. He doesn't find enough land to do anything about it, and extends his hand.
1-0 matches, 2-0 games
Round 2 vs Mono Black Pox
Game 1
He starts with a Cabal Therapy, but whiffs because he has absolutely no idea what I'm playing. He plays a Dark Confidant on turn 2 and strangely sacs in to flashback Cabal Therapy, nabbing two of my Stoneforge Mystics. I drop a Thalia on my turn 2, a long succession of creatures follow, and he runs out of removal. I beat him down with Thalia, Revoker naming Liliana of the Veil, and Batterskull.
In: Nothing
Out: Nothing
Game 2
He starts with Swamp, go, and I mirror with Plains, go. He plays a Bloodghast, but again I just spew forth creatures so fast that, even though he has more removal this time, he can't keep up. Never saw a non-creature spell this entire round.
2-0 matches, 4-0 games
Round 3 vs Esper Stoneblade
Game 1
The game goes long, as it usually does against Stoneblade when this deck is doing well. We burn through resources, but we eventually end up with Batterskull on the table and enough mana to bounce it, which works better for him than me. So I cast Revoker naming Batterskull, which works much better for me than him, because I have a Flickerwisp in my hand. He offers the Batterskulls trade and I snap take it, then I Flickerwisp mine to get a new Germ token. It ends shortly thereafter.
In: Nothing
Out: Nothing
Game 2
I get stuck on 2 land without a vial. I don't draw a land for 6 turns while my hand fills up with 3 drops. I lose to Batterskull equipped with Sword of Feast and Famine.
In: Nothing
Out: Nothing
Game 3
I get stuck on 2 lands again, but this time I have more two drops, and, aided principally by Thalia making his stuff harder to cast and his Snapcasters and Stoneforges unable to attack, I drag it into the long game, where I make him burn Forces on enough cards that I can force through what I really want to resolve, a Serra Avenger. He pierced two of my Vials, but once the Avenger resolves I start flying over for 3 and kill a Jace along the way. Thalia joins the party and it's over shortly thereafter in 5 life chunks.
3-0 matches, 6-1 games
Round 4 vs White Stax
I offer the split and we each settle for $35 in store credit. I come in first in the standings for bragging rights.
The Verdict On "Quadlazer D&T" - my opinion
I liked all of the creatures as 4-ofs (except Mangara). Seeing Thalia and Revoker every game is amazing, because they get killed A LOT, especially when you name the right thing with Revoker and are stuffing up flashback for Snapcaster Mage. However, I still found myself missing my Swords of x and y. I don't know why, but it just doesn't feel right without them. Having said that, I used Batterskull a lot, and it gives you a fair bit of breathing space. I think I'll test the same list -1 Mangara of Corondor, -1 Batterskull, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow. Mangara is the one creature that you don't usually want to see more than one of, even with 4 Karakas and 1 Eiganjo Castle.
I didn't miss Grunt. However, I didn't play against Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Aggro Loam or Dredge. If I had played against Loam I would have been crying for him! So I'm undecided on whether he should find a place in the sideboard...
Sideboard
I didn't use the sideboard at all in 2 matches. I think I should have brought in Relic of Progenitus against Esper Stoneblade, but ah well, the deck is good against Stoneblade anyway. As above, thinking of Grunts in there somehow.
Suggestions, criticism, comments welcome. My first sanctioned Legacy tournament in 6 months. So good to be in a city that plays Legacy weekly!
Regarding to the list of Thomas Enevoldsen, how do you side in Fiend Hunter and Elspeth, Knight-Errant ? And in which matchups ?
Congratulations on your performances Thomas, Barbed Blightning and pandaman and thanks for your reports :)
Hey guys!
Awesome to see people doing well with the deck, although I whole-heartedly and quite fundamentally disagree with some of the card choices (@Finn, I don't think we are talking minutiae with even 1 change of a card in the deck :smile:).
First of all, the equipment package. I see almost all the lists packing Swords of various kind. Light and Shadow and Fire/Ice seems to be the most popular. I agree that one (max!) sword would be a nice card to have, as it is a great way of finishing things off or grinding out an advantage. The problem I have with Swords, however, is two-fold. First, in a lot of cases, an active Jitte will get you out of trouble way better than a Sword could ever do (I'm talking both F/I and L/S). Protection from Blue is cute against Merfolk, but Jitte is more than cute, it wins games (especially on vigilance duty, if they have already gotten out enough Lords). The same with Goblins. I'm sure you are not forgetting that Thalia is a first-striker, so worrying about losing the creature too is lower. One could argue that by playing a Swords, you can make your Stoneforge Mystic a real threat (and not just a Steelshaper's Gift+speedbump), but fetching Batterskull will do that too, creating an army with just one card. And yes, I hear you all when you say that a dead SFM means a dead Batterskull. But you still just traded one for one (with a lategame plan now!), and all those other times, it just shines so much and gives you a proactive plan as well as inevitability. As for Light and Shadow, the recurring element is great and all, but when you think about it, not that many of our creatures actually go to the yard (especially against control, where I would probably want it the most). Swords to Plowshares removes, Terminus is to the bottom, Jace bounces, Mangara Exiles itself. Nope, I'll take a Batterskull anyday for grinding out those decks.
I will agree that there are some situations, where I would like to fetch up a Sword, but my second problem with Swords is: What to cut!? I have gone down my list (the 12th place from GP Ghent) and I can't find a single card to cut. This is (in my opinion, of course) the cleanest, most efficient decklist with this deck. You want all your cards, all the time. All cards are ranging from INCREDIBLE to simply 'fine', but never below that, in seemingly every matchup. I want 4 Serra Avengers, because they close out creature games. I want Flickerwisp because of its many uses (even without Vial, with an active Vial I would like to order 16 Flickerwisps, please). Revoker is a beast against every deck almost. Stoneforge is the finisher in the deck. Aether Vial is the most powerful card in the deck. Swords is the best removal of all time. I would perhaps like to go down to 3.5 Mangaras, but since that is not an option, I would always like to see one, so 4 it is. I saw a post from the tournament report describing the deck as having a superior gameplan in every step of the match (early, middle and late). I really like and agree with that description. That is the power of the deck. Every matchup must be clawed away from the opponent's hand, and while it is our responsibility to do the legwork, there is always hope when playing this deck, exactly because of its broad interactions early, middle and late.
This is exactly why even cutting one of these awesome cards means decreasing your chance of winning. This is one of those decks where the core IS the deck, and no piece is replaceable or unnecessary. 4 of everything please.
As for the sideboard, I'm not entirely sure in what direction to go card for card, but I know that I prefer a non-tutor sideboard. The reason is mostly consistency with the deck (I know that sounds odd, cutting tutors and talking about consistency). While I feel the deck has game against literally (in the actual, literal sense of the word), ANY LEGACY DECK OUT THERE, I only think that is the case because we maximize our edge at every opportunity. And we have to, because we only have the 7 cards in our starting hand to work with. No filtering, no card drawing (except SFM, don't give me that Sword of F/I nonsense :smile:). Losing a card to Tutor is more devastating with this deck than with other decks, that can afford it due to a more powerful lategame. Don't get me wrong, our lategame is powerful, but only because we never waste resources (except when we waste other people's lands!). The other side of this is that I feel more Legacy decks are playing fair now, and there are less Glass Cannons than there may have been before so I don't want to block my board with 'powerful, tutorable, but narrow cards'. I want consistency Pre- and Post-board, always optimizing what the Main Deck did, while cutting those 3-6 cards that do not pull their entire weight. That is why I believe in a standard sideboard.
And just because I play with a lot of one-offs doesn't mean I certainly create high-variance situations. I am merely increasing percentages a little bit. I actually constructed the sideboard by taking out cards I wanted in every matchup, and then see how many I needed to put in, before settling on a broad set of cards.
My sideboard as of now
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Gut Shot
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Leonin Bola (used to be Tormod's Crypt)
Elspeth is for a lot of different purposes. Against Maverick, it is a fine card to go over the top with in board stalls (or to create that board stall). Sometimes, Maverick games are about the mana, and that is why we only want one, we have other ways of going over the top (Mangara or SFM+Manriki and then equip them out). It is also for Pernicious Deed-like control decks, which this deck can have problems with if they also play Massacre (as we cannot create a Mother+Revoker board, for instance. Also a reason to run Eiganjo Castle, it dodges the Massacre discount). It is also a fine card in the mirror (which, of course, should be the most popular deck in the room :smile:).
Ethersworn Canonist is for Elves and Storm, pretty self-explanatory. Sometimes I board in 1-2 against Snapcaster decks, if I feel like some maindeck cards aren't pulling their weight (e.g. Mother of Runes against Terminus control).
Fiend Hunter is a great catch-all (reset-able with Flickerwisp!) to Show&Tell, Reanimator and even grindy matchups like Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Delver. He gets boarded in a lot (sometimes because of lackluster MD cards, like against Delver). One of the best in the SB!
Gut shots are for Elves, Maverick and mirror. I also board in a couple on the draw against Goblins, as we usually only lose to Lackey god-draws, and we have fewer options on the draw (mother can't block, Stoneforge t2 is no good).
Manriki-Gusari is pretty easy. If they rely on equipment, this is a good card.
Oblivion Ring: Another catch-all that deals with Planeswalker-control, stupid enchantments (Humility comes to mind), Big creatures and also fine vs. Show&Tell.
Relics contribute to our grinding strategy against the Delver decks. I usually board in 1 against Maverick too, and more if I see Tarmogoyfs (unlikely, I know). Of course against Dredge and Reanimator, and also probably one against Snapcaster decks. Great against Team America too! I've seen some pox-like discard decks, and I take in a couple here too, as it is a permanent you can put on the board, mess with any loam-engine/Nether Spirit, Raven's Crime and also conserve a card for later use, when you are living off the top, as these matchups usually go.
Leonin Bola is a new addition, as I didn't feel Tormod's Crypt was pulling it's weight. This is of course for Emrakuls and Griselbrands, and it particularly shines against Sneak Attack, as they cannot put their Legend in again (which is miserable, when you have Karakas). A try-out for now, but I think it will do good things.
The only thing I hate right now are Progenitus, but until that sees more of the metagame, this is in my opinion the ideal sideboard. An answer to that could be Phyrexian Metamorph, so I'd have to try and fit in 2-3 of those (they are not that dead otherwise, so not that big of a risk, of course can be brought in to legendrule others too).
Feedback is welcome, especially for defenders of Jotun Grunt and Swords of various kinds!
Firm believer in playsets :wink:
My list isn't far too different from yours, except I DO run the F/S, L/S swords over batterskull. Aside from enjoying the utility of the swords far too much to switch over to what is essentially a good beater, I can attest to the value of each sword. L/S's recursion has won me matches against RUG simply by negating their removal (+2/+2 also gets around most burn) and allowing me to block 5/6 goys all day long. L/S also shrinks goyfs if you're the only one with a dude in their yard, or if revoker is the only artifact. L/S is good againt Burn decks for a similar reason, but also helps get back the life you're so rapidly losing (I'll agree that Bskull gets in there for one more lifelink).
F/I is also a house in its own right. The card draw may seem cute, but I've found that its a great way to get out of a fateseal-lock with Jace, useful against discard decks, and the perfect way to speed out of unpleasant combo matchups. Pro-JTMS, Pro-Wipe Away/Echoing Truth, Pro-Inkwell Leviathan et. al. is very relevant to me, esp. since I have high tide players floating around in my area.
Also, what merfolk decks have you been playing against that fold to jitte? Now that they have 20 lords (or whatever) I'm just not seeing how Jitte is the house you describe it to be. It's great against Gobs, and I know Thalia has first strike, however, F/I is great in both of these matches as well (more than Jitte against Fish, imo).
My problems with Jitte are as follows:
It can be spell snare'd.
It needs to be charged before it is remotely useful
It's legendary quality and popularity make it short-lived
It's useless if someone uses a pithing needle on it, even if equipped.
It provides no inherent protection.
...the same of which can't be said of the Swords.
Conclusion: with 4 avengers in your main, why run fewer equips? She's our best sword holder, and she hits for 5 if she has a Sword on her. Sure, Bskull is powerful with mystic, but the germ is short-lived, the cost to bounce-replay is high no matter how you play it, and the equip cost is insane. I've played with bskull in my main before and I went back to 2 Swords and a jitte because I wanted a more consistent deck that provided me with the options to retain that consistency.
Further, I treat the swords as a means to augment my creatures and exploit the weaknesses of my matchups. F/I is used to speed things up/add more removal, L/S is used to rebuild forces/stabilize, jitte helps fill the spots in between.
Small Question: How did you feel with 3 Relic as your only Grave Hate? I always feel like less than 4 pieces of GY Hate is suicide against Reanimator or Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasEnevoldsen
Otherwise, I completely agree with having Playsets for consistency. I would still like one Sword of Light and Shadow in my MB, though.
Tom I like your reasoning for the deck. Personally my list was running the swords as well (SOLS, SOFI) But I cut them to try out two grunt instead. My list was this because of the amount of rug I was seeing in my meta...
4x mom
4x sfm
4x grunt
4x revoker
4x thalia
2x mangara
4x Flicker wisp
12x Spells
4x swords
4x vial
2x umezawa
1x sofi
1x sols
22x land
10x plains
4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
SB
4x faerie macabre
2x oust
1x sword of feast and famine
2x tormods crypt
2x oblivion ring
4x ethersworn canonist
I was running 4 offs because as you said consistency. After seeing your list I changed it to.
4x mom
4x sfm
4x serra avenger
4x revoker
4x thalia
2x jotun grunt
2x mangara
4x Flicker wisp
12x Spells
4x swords
4x vial
1x umezawa
1x batterskull
22x land
10x plains
4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
SB
4x faerie macabre
2x gut shot
2x jotun grunt
1x sword of light and shadow
2x mangara of corondor
4x ethersworn canonist
Nice job topping and ty for your opinion and report
Thanks for your response, BL, I'll try and counterpoint some of what you are saying. My point, however, is still going to be overall consistency, and it seems to me that the swords are more like blowouts (in both directions) than actual, reliable threats. But I'll go through your comment:
You mention the 'utility' of the swords package. I will point to my consistency argument and say that having utility in a lot of ways eschews consistency. As I've said before, I agree that Swords are nice to have (they are, afterall, very good cards), but they take slots away from the deck that I don't feel are affordable. All the creatures are necessary 4-ofs in my opinion, and that leaves no room for swords :(
So let's look at how they compare to Batterskull/Jitte! I think calling Batterskull 'a good beater' is quite the understatement. Mentioning all the good he/it does seems repetitive, as it is in fact all there on the card. Most importantly, I just feel he straight up outclasses Light and Shadow. This is mostly due to the fact that almost every matchup nowadays revolves around creatures (and if it doesn't, well then we are in a hurry to close out games, and Batterskull deals 4 damage and Light and Shadow deals 2, it's basic math!). He lifelinks for more, he works on both offense and defense (I realize Serra Avenger with Sword does that as well, but if I am allowed that situation, I'll choose a Jitte over L/S anyways...), and as regards to Light and Shadows recursion, Batterskull bring his own body! L/S requires both a connect with the opponent's face as well as 2(!) creatures in the yard to improve on Batterskull's stats. And even so, we are down 2 life in the race (which we are, btw, not vigilanting our way out of). You mention that L/S's recursion has won you matches against RUG simply by negating their removal (+2/+2 also gets around most burn) and allowing you to block 5/6 goys all day long. I will agree that a steady stream of blockers is a potential upgrade on Batterskull (who only blocks once), but can't we just swing back and negate the lifeloss? Or, if he has 2 goyfs and we are swinging with a flier, Doesn't Jitte accomplish much the same (negating the damage by gaining 4 life every turn?). Saying that L/S shrinks a goyf in some circumstances is, well, pretty circumstantial to say the least. It requires a connect against a board that has a goyf, so we need a flier (we have 8). Getting back revoker is fine for shrinking, but I board him out anyways, so that is only game 1 applicable (and again, pretty circumstantial, as he is already basically a mulligan against that deck, since they started not packing Lavamancers).
You mention that "L/S is good againt Burn decks (I'll agree that Bskull gets in there for one more lifelink)". Batterskull gets in for life turn 4 (against, essentially, a turn 4 combo deck), whereas you would need a (surviving) mother and 4 lands to do that with L/S, and they can of course just Bolt it then (or in response to equip), whereas no removal hits an active Batterskull (at least to my memory, Burn is not a popular deck where I play).
I guess the most prohibiting factor of Batterskull is the manacost (at least that's what I'm seeing in people's posts). It's hard to discuss briefly the situations where Batterskulls mana becomes prohibitive against L/S need of a creature and a turn to play it+turn to equip (in other words, time). I find it oftentimes that the surprise factor of a Sword hit is what makes it the most powerful, and that of course requires 5 mana just like Batterskull. Biting that into pieces is of course preferable at times, however if we are stuck on mana, we usually have better things to do than drop a Sword of Light and Shadow onto the board while our opponent is usually one-upping us (since they've got the mana!).I'll also add the fact that not a lot of stuff actually 'dies' in the beginning (as in, goes to the graveyard), and if it does, we are desperate for creatures to wield the swords to get back or missing friends. This usually puts a good Sword hit (lifegain + recursion of already lost creature) at the earliest on turn 4, and that is against one removal spell (that is not Swords or Path) and us having creatures turn 1 and 2. Not unlikely, but not especially likely either? And if our one-drop is Mother, and they don't kill it, then usually nothing dies for a while (unless it's with mass removal, in which case our sword again can look kind of lonely. And that is just comparing Batterskull to L/S straight up mana-wise, let's not forget the guy who brough Batterskull with him, and all the times he survives (or we have a mother, or we don't mind him dying because we are playing another threat the turn after, or we halted our opponent for spending a removal on a creature that already got us an advantage).
In short, I don't think it's close with Light and Shadow vs. Batterskull.
Moving on to Fire/Ice. You mention that the card draw is a great way to get out of a fateseal-lock with Jace. I agree 100 %. It does however require us to have a creature to connect with, and if we had that, we'd already be attacking Jace (or he'd be bouncing our guy, but then the lock is broken). This however, is the strongest pull for any of the swords over Jitte/Skull, I think. None of those match up particularly well against Jace, unless we have another creature and the Germ Token and 5 mana, which, I guess, is not that likely, but they resolved Jace (through manadisruption and fighting off our other creatures), so maybe we are not that far from the 5 mana equip cost. Also, we have 4 Mangara and 4 Revoker (because we are not playing Swords :smile:), so we have plenty of answers to Jace before he becomes live too.
You mention it's useful against discard decks. Well if we have a guy to strap it on, sure, but at least Batterskull is a topdeck that comes with it's own body, whereas Swords is a rather measly one, if we have an empty board. But I will say that in this case, a Sword of F/I is better than both Jitte and Skull. Dedicated discard decks are, however, pretty rare in Legacy, so not something I would actively keep slots open for.
As for speeding up combo matches, Batterskull and Fire Ice do the same amount of damage, but Skull nets you life against Storm (we assume, here, that Mystic lives), which could be relevant. Givign pro blue is really good too though (on the right bear), so F/I has that going for it as well. You mention High Tide, but I haven't seen that deck in forever, so it is not much of a concern to me, but I'll agree that Sword shines better than Skull or Jitte here (Though we should have plenty of disruption for the matchup regardless...)
As for tribal, I quote you here: "Also, what merfolk decks have you been playing against that fold to jitte? Now that they have 20 lords (or whatever) I'm just not seeing how Jitte is the house you describe it to be. It's great against Gobs, and I know Thalia has first strike, however, F/I is great in both of these matches as well (more than Jitte against Fish, imo)".
'Fold' is probably too strong a word for Jitte's effect, unless we can keep them on 1 lord at a time (or get to attack twice). F/I doesn't kill anything either, though, unless we try to race them, which I suppose can be difficult against a "lord-heavy" draw. Also, they have Mutavauls to stop the bleeding (and Waste for our Ports?). Jitte will often cause you to lose a creature, and that is definetely a point against it, but our plan should be to go long against them, so just one Jitte hit means we never have to lose a creature again (F/I forces us to go into a race against them, which is not what our deck does best, but still, I agree, it's a viable option).
And against Goblins, the sword definetely shines more than Jitte, but they are usually so fast that I go for Skull first anyways just to stabilize, but that still puts F/I above Jitte in this matchup, I'll admit to that.
Then, you're general points about Jitte:
"My problems with Jitte are as follows":
It can be spell snare'd. - It's a 1-of against a field not particularly filled with SPell Snares, and moreover, our decks are filled with 2-drops, and Jitte is usually far from the most relevant card against decks packing Spell Snare, so Snare away! (and in counterpoint, I'll mention Spell Pierce as a more legitimate answer to Swords that to Jitte!).
It needs to be charged before it is remotely useful - That is a problem when we are facing bigger creatures, but on the other hand, having to connect means they can be rather dead in the wrong matchups (where protection is of little relevance). Evasion works for both equips (as well as Mother granting protection), so I don’t see any reason to discuss merits of that, although if I could choose, I would rather want the Jitte charging every turn than a Sword if I’m facing creatures of various kinds, as there is so much more utility in it. But that is probably matchup-dependant, which is something I won’t discuss here (already too much text!)
It's legendary quality and popularity make it short-lived – Thank god it’s legendary! Our deck has a hard time beating other Jittes!
It's useless if someone uses a pithing needle on it, even if equipped. – Agreed, although the situations are not that many in my opinion, in which we have had an active Sword/Jitte, they played the Needle, and we are not somehow still looking good.
It provides no inherent protection. – True, only when charged (then it can beat up Tarmogoyfs and perhaps even knights!).
...the same of which can't be said of the Swords.
“Conclusion: with 4 avengers in your main, why run fewer equips? She's our best sword holder, and she hits for 5 if she has a Sword on her. Sure, Bskull is powerful with mystic, but the germ is short-lived, the cost to bounce-replay is high no matter how you play it, and the equip cost is insane. I've played with bskull in my main before and I went back to 2 Swords and a jitte because I wanted a more consistent deck that provided me with the options to retain that consistency”.
As I’ve already said, in most matchups it is my opinion that I would rather have an Avenger wielding Jitte than Sword. It is not that I don’t want a 3rd equipment, but there are things I want more! Your point about the Germ being short-lived means they spent a removal, which was going to hit whoever we were trying to equip with our sword, costing us a lot of tempo in the process. Sword stays on for the next guy, but so does Skull (just give it a little more time!). About the equip cost, Swords are only a tad bit cheaper on the whole (and if we are hardcasting both to ‘equip’, we get the same effect from Skull as we do from a Sword).
Maybe it’s just my games, but I always plan for the long game, because this deck wants to get there usually, and in that long game, Batterskull always ends up playing a role, and does so at the expense of opponents’ resources that they could’ve spent on other things.
I look forward to replies, I love a good discussion (and convince me what to cut for F/I, I am still not close to sold on L/S)…
Go plains!
:wink:
In terms of what to cut for SoFI: I would personally go down to 3 Mangara. You mentioned earlier that you wanted around 3.5 of them, and since SoFI can shoot things anyway, Mangara becomes more useful for taking out noncreature permanents. I've always ran 3 and seeing him has never been an issue.
In an effort to save space and time, I'll condense my counterpoints.
-Much of your rebuttal seems to revolve around how swords need a creature to equip to, while batterskull brings its own body. True, yes, but our deck has a threat density on par with that of Maverick's: We run around 26-28 creatures in our main deck alone. I doubt, even with more support creatures like mangara and mom, that we'd ever have a problem finding a creature to equip. And, as far as connection with a sword goes, 7-8 of our creatures fly. The format (in the States, at least) is surprisingly lacking in fliers, with only Delvers, Aven Mindcensor, Angel tokens and the fatties Reanimator/SneakShow plays being the only consistent threats. The Swords get through them (save Emrakul) regardless.
-Batterskull isn't guaranteed to drop turn 4 against burn, since it is relying on SFM. And yes, Burn is still a deck consistently in my meta.
-The Swords cost me, in total, about 4 to play and equip (SFM). 5 is the worst case scenario. And they almost always get attached to a creature who has been around since last turn. Batterskull has summoning sickness, and costs 7 (at its cheapest) if you want to reap the benefits immediately. With the extra mana I have from using the swords, I can port lands, keep a Karakas open to Mangara-lock or save Thalia, use wastelands, or play additional spells/creatures. Batterskull seems (or, at least was to me) an entire-turn commitment. Sometimes it was turn 3, others it was turn 6+. Regardless, given how much we use our lands for non-mana purposes, Batterskull is always a commitment--which crumples to spell pierce much harder than any other equipment.
I'm not saying Batterskull is bad. In fact, it's quite good--there's a reason why it's a popular combo with SFM, and I have no doubt that some of your games at GP Ghent (and elsewhere) were won by that card alone. However, I view the swords as an efficient means to augment our creatures' power level. Rather than having a powerhouse finisher, the Swords take our otherwise okay creatures and makes them harder to kill.
The +2/+2 gets around most burn, as well as -X/-1 effects that are really the bane of this deck, and can give us the P/T edge we need against op posing creatures. Their protection hinders removal (or forces two-for-ones), as well as allowing us to block creatures we should never be able to block profitably (L/S-equipped revoker blocks KotR all day), and the colorless removal of SoFI has helped me gun down opposing Moms many times.
The point is moot to argue further, in my opinion. It comes down to meta calls and preference--utility vs. consistency, as you say. Either package has its merits and flaws, but neither would I call necessarily bad choices (I obviously won't be dropping F/I and L/S for a while, but neither will you Bskull I suspect).
You both make compelling arguments. I am going to stick my nose in here.
It seems to me that there are plenty of critters in our deck that demand immediate removal. I have noticed my opponents running short more often these days. I am not sure why. But I have been trying out batterskull since last week and it is better than I remember. I think that is why. I have it in my Sword of Light/Shadow slot right now.
This is a complicated topic though. I am nowhere near ready to settle.
Hi guys. I'm sticking with plains from the starting of this year and I find dnt one of the best decks out there in the format right now.
At this time I'm testing batterskull. At first, he/it was in the sideboard. Coming in vs burn, nic fit otp, threshold. Right now, I moved it to the main. Although we don't really have "the additional critter" needs, it is only the powerhouse we must fetch in certain situations.
Sometimes, while testing, there is no reason to find a sofi or a jitte, for example. I brought him into my MD(with some sweat on my brow, I admit it) cutting sofi. And I got quite surprised.
I really think sofi is much, much more "cuttable" than solas. The reasons are as follows. Solas gives pro white. maverick, lingering, miracles, can't of course block(and this is the main reason, for what implies me) or get swords/snapswords as long as you can stick one. And it happens.
Solas gives +2+2. In fact, sometimes, it is not enough for burn, but when you want to put it onto a thalia, you can just make it jump via karakas or throw in another one with vial. In addition, mangara is good, but not the creature you want to waste 5-6 mana on just to remove a permanent. Well, sometimes she is that good, but i think you are 1.already winning or 2.really losing(and they have a bolt or a stifle in hand to just make you waste 3+turns around resolving a successful mangara bounce&remove). So, I would say that +2+2 from solas is enough to throw you away from most burn. The other reason is that we want card advantage, but not the card advantage sofi provides(except for the burn sometimes; I do miss that, often, in the night, after elves did destroy ur jitte). With solas, you get what you want, not what the deck gives you. If you can stick a vial vs miracle in mid to late game, every card he has countered you, can comeback in a cbalance lock.
Tes, right now, doesn't want to waste slots packing many bounce spells vs us. He brings in Dread of night, and that's it. So, solas on a canonist or revoker by itself are great. Sometimes he can find his mono-chain of vapor but we just have to be careful to keep a vial @2. High tide can be a problem, without sofi, but that's just a meta-call imho.
At last but not the least, a batterskull with a solas is such entertaining. Vs other batterskulls. *gorsh*.
my two cents, and of course tell what you think about my impressions :P
I keep SOLAS in the board for MU where there is a lot of removal and you want one beater to win the match (control match ups). In terms of high tide a mom or a vial at 2 for canonist can be pretty effective if they try to storm out. Against decks deck with dread of night and the likes I would bring in the SOLs and o-ring if I have it in my board.
I am on board with Batterskull. The life gain and interaction with flickerwisp and sfm and vial is amazing. Just my two cents. Of course this all depends on the build.
Question for you tom... With your version of D&T what is your MU against U/W miracles? How much success did you find with gut shot and ethersworn canonist together against elves? Last question... What did you face in your rounds and what did you have difficulty with in the MU's you lost.
Something tells me Enevoldsen has had his portion of problems with elves :smile:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...gpgnt12/day2#9
I see. Has anyone thought about peacekeeper against elves. Then mangara lock or alpha strike for the win....
Just playing a bunch of Canonists out of the board seems fine for me? They also are useful in other matchups too.
I think I will try that.
I also won, once, with multiple flickerwisps on regal force
Wow. That actually made me laugh. Awesome man. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by hyggli