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Jitte just shines when you have crappy little creatures and lots of them. Because of Jitte, they are not crappy anymore and that is the whole point. You need to connect four times with Jitte counters vs. connecting 20 times without. I suggest trying some in sideboard and seeing yourself.
Jitte is very good in creature mu's but in those mu's our creatures are very bad and add that I would never risk to loose a painter or a welder in combat...that's leave only cmc3 creatures as jitte bearers that's way too slow. Imho I'd rather play more bridges in the jitte slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
As for moon split, I would agree that you definitely want 4 blood moon and then add a couple magus as you see fit. Cavern is obviously a bit of a nonbo with moon effects.
As for jitte, I don't like it either. If I were going to play an equipment of some form it would probably be sword of war and peace as it hits for some good damage and protects your creature from a lot of removal. The life gain is also very good against burn. Having said that, it's a side board card at best. I am really liking the 3 bridge/3 planeswalker list. It's really good against everything except combo, and combo seems to be on the downswing right now. Bridge is also obviously better against show and tell as well.
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Painter is finally upgraded and done.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e649c6572b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f1e22280a1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c060a816b9.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2d46174867.jpg
Sideboard:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2508842bf5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...594453ec19.jpg
Extras:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...09140eec98.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eb03474979.jpg
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Wow! there's a couple of things that are not my taste but it's a really nice deck!Quote:
Originally Posted by 8bit9mm
That is quite gorgeous. I do love the masterpiece Painter art.
Wow, that's beautiful. Everytime I see a pimped out deck, it makes me want to do the same.
It was the result of some good luck and "downsizing" my collection. It's also a labor of love. Painter gets me giddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
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I don't know if you've shared your list on previous pages, but could I see your list? I like Nahiri and Koth in the deck but I rarely ever see painter players play it. So I'm curious how you do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8bit9mm
Koth used to be the shit before mentor was a card, I think he's still good in the miracles matchup if your opponent is not running/does not bring them in. Nahiri is kind of mediocre now that blue Jace aka Chandra is out.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
This. Decks like elves and the pyromancer decks in the treasure cruise era could afford to play jitte exactly because of this. The majority of their creatures while not entirely disposable were good enough to go wide and win. The problem with our deck is that we only have a few creatures that we can just afford to throw away. An average list is going to be playing anywhere from 12-15 creatures. Our backup plan isn't really to go wide, it's to go big with walkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
I would echo haddock here. I have extensive experience with both cards, and while both are fine and do what you expect them to do they are either outclassed by other cards or are not "on plan".
Where I would find jitte helpful and if you want to go down that route would be grixis, Dnt, elves, and other non decay decks.
Koth is fine against sneak and miracles but I'd rather have Chandra now a days.
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Man sucks to see Amonkhet have a new hate card for us in Dispossess, at least its a sorcery. Do you guys expect to see this in sideboards?
I'm going to a fnm where the meta is (this is a quote from a friend who plays there):
"alot of prison decks. meta is mostly mark decks. which include, dnt, miracles, pox, parfait, enchantress, merfolk, burn, ranimator and g/g depths. then theres me on infect/reanimator another dnt and sometimes a nic fit and another miracles
and no and again another infect and a stoneblade"
What do you think I need to change with my current decklist is:
2 simian spirit guide
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
1 magus of the moon
1 ethersworn canonist
2 goblin welder
4 ancient tomb
4 arid mesa
2 plateau
3 city of traitors
1 crystal vein
1 plains
4 mountain
1 great furnace
3 blood moon
1 RIP
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 enlightened tutor
4 grindstone
2 Sensei's divining top
1 ensnaring bridge
3 lotus petal
2 chandra, torch of defiance
1 nahiri, the harbinger
1 daretti, scrap savant
Sb:
1 blood moon
1 ensnaring bridge
1 koth
1 Kozilek's return
1 sudden shock
1 surgical
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 spellskite
1 engineered explosives
1 trinisphere
1 ethersworn canonist
1 ajani Vengeant
1 duergar hedge-mage
1 wear//tear
No especially when people can make their own Dispossess with Removal/Counterspells and Surgical Extraction without playing bad cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by GradStudent
I tried Jitte several times and it was definitely Ace in the Burn MU when I saw it, but mono red doesn't have a tutor. If I am playing E. Tutor, white has better options. I don't think Jitte needed against other type of creature decks though. I do like a 1-of Smuggler's Copter if I am in the market for an "equipment" as a way to filter my deck, give my feeble creatures "haste" and smash in for 3, or block a Delver/Clique.
@8bit9mm, you need to upgrade to foil Cities. J/k, your deck is beautiful.
@PMValleysdai, I think Darretti is bad. The +2 should have been draw first, then discard. The -2 is bad because, unlike Welder, sacrificing an artifact is part of the cost. The ultimate doesn't win games outright. I'd play a Blood Moon over it, saving you a SB slot. Four Blood Moon MD is mandatory IMO. I think a third Chandra is better than Nahiri. I'd fit in a third SDT too.
+1, the card is way too narrow. Then again, this is Legacy, and I get blown out by random cards all the time, and vise-versa. I wouldn't fear it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I have to agree with daretti, I tried him for a welder just to stop blow outs to miracles, but the fact that the ability is sorcery and I can't target opponents artifacts hinders it too much (the ultimate is pointless IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I have to admit that I like nahiri, she digs and can get rid of pesky non land permanents. I only recently moved to having 2 chandra.
I've swapped a few cards with the sideboard for the white prison/stax meta on friday. Would you put a 3rd chandra or a 3rd welder instead of daretti (or something else completely)?
Thanks for the feedback.
I'd put in a 2nd bridge and exchange the magus in the main with the blood moon in the board. If you're playing a bunch of walkers you want more than 1 bridge to protect them. I think that you want a full 4 moons before you want the magus, magus gets hit by every removal spell under the sun and if he gets hit by a turn 1 basic -> removal than you've basically mulliganed to 4. I'd swap the crystal vein out with a basic mountain as I don't actually think you need the full playset of sol lands with Rw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
My honest recommendation would be to try out a relatively "stock"ish list without any of the fluff and then tailor the deck accordingly. There is quite a bit of value of metagaming but I think that people often overvalue it over just playing normally.
Generally agree here. If you are going to play a bunch of planeswalkers then I would definitely play AT LEAST 2 bridge. I would even lean toward 3. I also agree that you want 4 blood moon before a magus. The only benefit of having Magus is that it is searchable with recruiter but now you are talking about turn 4 before you play it and your opponent usually has an answer waiting by then.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Also, would generally agree that Daretti isn't great in the stock version. Having said that, it's pretty good if you are playing black and entomb. Then it is welder #5+.
Speaking of which, here is the R/B list I have been toying with.
// Lands
4 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Mountain
1 [B] Badlands
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures
3 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
1 [NPH] Spellskite
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [OD] Entomb
4 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 [C14] Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
4 [DK] Blood Moon
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [MR] Mindslaver
SB: 2 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 1 [M14] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [MMA] Executioner's Capsule
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [OGW] Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
4 maindeck planeswalkers with 3 bridge main. daretti, iconoclast is a house. I played a game today where he took out 4 creatures (including 3 delvers). Opponent kept dropping them just so I couldn't get to his ultimate (I was low on life). The dorks he makes is really good with welders as well. Obviously, I have replaced the e.tutors with entombs in this deck. This gives you an instant speed win with one piece of combo and a welder out. The only down side is that it's kind of a dead card without welder or a daretti out and there isn't anything good enough with flashback to play. I haven't looked at the new split cards yet but am hoping one of those are good. The deck is very strong against combo and chains is a house. If I could easily afford a 3rd I would consider it. The SB is a work in progress. Wurmcoil is my only chance against burn. Hoping they let a welder live and I can entomb for him. Null rod is painful against this deck but I do have 3 maindeck artifact removal cards along with blast + painter. I was also trying tangle wire in place of blood moon for a while just because of the shenanigans with welder but it just wasn't good enough when the game went long. Open to suggestions.
Gonna shake off some massive Shortcake rust tonight. Stream at 11 ET.
Maybe Gambe over Entomb? If it ends up in the yard it's just an Entomb and if it ends up in hand it's basically a Demonic Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
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Maybe unearth? Fill in and try a mini reanimator? With 1x magus of the moon? XD
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I tried this with reanimate actually and it was terrible. That being said the deck was a strange mix between painter and reanimator and you would always have the wrong piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocioni88
Gamble certainly would be a consideration. It doesn't give me an instant speed win but could grab a moon or something like that. The biggest problem would be to gamble for something like the mindslaver and have it get stuck in hand. Will have to test that a little more.
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@8bit: the Gamble was a good call. thanks for the suggestion.
Also, to people playing a non-white version of the deck (mostly mono red people), what is your sideboard strategy against burn? Have people really tried filigree familiar? I haven't but the idea actually isn't terrible with welders. Anything else? I'm getting wrecked by that deck with my r/b version. Anyone ever play with one of the orbs, or trading post or elixir of immortality?
Yeah, I actually sleeved up Filigree Familiar at last year's Eternal Extravaganza.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post974321
Filigree was pretty insane in one of the match vs. Burn, netting me six life and three cards with an active Welder. But I also had an active Spellskite in that match... The problem with Filigree Familiar is that he's only really useful with an active Welder and Spellskite in the battlefield, making it a three card combo. Filigree Familiar may be more useful in your list though since you are playing 4 Welders. I never tried orbs, trading post, or elixir of immortality since mono-red doesn't play tutor effects, and seemed like a waste of SB space.
Sorry, I don't really have a great strategy vs. Burn currently. I usually SB out all Blood Moons and Ensaring Bridges, but keep in Magus since he blocks, as well as potentially making Searing Blaze a tad awkward. I SB out Ensnaring Bridge because blasts are essential when trying to combo off with Painter to counter up to two burn spells at once sometimes, so going hellbent is not what I want to be doing anyways. Post board, I'd have up to 7-8 Blasts.
I do like Hope of Ghirapur vs. Burn though. It usually draws out a kill spell, which is one less going to Painter. If the opponent doesn't kill Hope of Ghirapur, it basically gives you Time Walk to muster up all the resources to win this turn or the turn after. Hope of Ghirapur is probably better than Filigree, Orb, Trading Post, etc, since all the other cards has a much high CMC and requires more resources to make them work.
Haven't posted here in a bit because I've been getting rep's in with Sneak and Show to practice for a 1k where I plan on playing that. I have been testing a lot of things in painter though in the last week or so.
After about 15 games my preliminary conclusion on Mentor is that he is mostly win-more and not an adequate replacement for bridge. There were a few games where it was quite good as a very high impact tutor target, but most of the time he didn't matter.
I have tested many manabase variations since adding Chandra and I find 26 to be correct. I am running a plains, 3 petal 2 guide, and 1 chrome mox. I don't run e-tutor main so I find the card disadvantage from chrome mox to rarely matter. We also frequently have redundant red cards.
I haven't found a good number yet but after testing I agree with McBain that something less than 4 recruiters is correct. I've had a lot of success with 2, the consistency of the combo doesn't seem to be affected, it's usually grindstone I need to find anyway. We're also in a meta where red blast is often good without painter.
To add to the recruiter point I'm also running a fourth top. It is probably the best change I've made, and I find top to be more powerful than recruiter at finding what I need at any given time. Top is also absolutely broken with Chandra on board.
I'll continue to test and post a list when I'm confident I have enough data.
Fnm report: went 2-1.
I made a few changes to the deck, I bought a helm of obedience just before legacy and sided it in for a REB (was told that it is a blue light meta, it wasn't but I missed all but 1)
Round 1
Opponent: DnT
Overview:
Game 1:
Kept 7, put a painter in play with a backup in hand, surprised it stayed, then grindstone him for the win in response to vialing a flickerwisp. He had no swords.
Game 2:
He revokered grindstone, I got nahiri down trying to ult for a RIP because I had helm in hand, but he kills her quickly. Then I play helm and after a few turns of draw go. I get RIP and win.
Result: 2-0
Round 2
Opponent: eldrazi
Overview:
Game 1:
T1 grindstone, T2 painter, T3 win
Game 2:
Get reality smashed, very little I could do.
Game 3:
Mull to 6 with 2 petals, 1 bridge, 1 plateau, 1 grindstone, 1 helm, scry ancient tomb to the top. Slam bridge down T1, he was surprised at the bridge T1. Then I got mana flooded and he slowly uptick ratchet bomb. I kept milling him with helm and died by my own ancient tombs.
Result: 1-2
Round 3
Opponent: sneak and tell
Overview:
Game 1:
I moon his lands after a few turns of draw go he gets sneak attack down, next turn griz and emrakul.
Game 2:
I get grindstone down, have trinisphere and painter in hand, he show and tells, I debate for a while and decide on trinisphere. He shows omniscience. I play painter next turn and win.
Game 3:
I play ancient tomb, 2 petals and run a painter into force (with a backup and recruiter in hand), then blast his brainstorm, he spell pierces, I play recruiter for welder, play welder next turn to bait any forces. Then I proceed to lock the game with Ensnaring bridge, ethersworn canonist, trinisphere and nahiri. I play my painter when he is tapped out and the following turn ult nahiri to get grindstone and the win.
I made a large mislay game 3, I pitched painter to nahiri and played bridge, the opponent said he only had 1 out and I guessed that it was Echoing Truth, so I welded painter in on his end step, saccing one of the bridges.
Result: 2-1
I'm glad that I added helm in for daretti, it enabled me to have another out when grindone gets locked. Goblin welder held his own and impressed me as did trinisphere.
Just curious, how does everyone feel about Harsh Mentor?
1R
Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2
Sorry, not sure how to link cards, especially ones that aren't technically out yet.
You don't mention having RiP, surgical, or crypt in your combo wins against sneak and show. Was he scooping unaware of the emrakul interaction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
I believe that that was the case, I forgot as well in all honesty, we even discussed me sideboarding in surgicals for the emrakuls.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
We were both rusty in fairness, he hasn't played legacy for months and I haven't played painter for a couple of months.
I actually had a mono-red sneak player scoop twice last night on MTGO from me just resolving the combo without the graveyard piece. I messaged him afterward to try to help him out in the future, no response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
Friendly reminder to everyone: unless you're playing an extremely grindy matchup and going to time is a concern, just play it out. You may learn something or even get a chance to scout the nuances of their list, even if you think you've lost.
Fuck. RIP Welder-Top shenanigans. Where do we go from here, gentleman? I must admit, I'm incredibly disappointed.
It's kind of a shame losing top as I think that terminus was the problem child but I think it was a needed change. That being said i'm not really sure where to go from here, we still have cards like faithless looting and related. I think this deck is still playable without top, but losing top is a beating. I'll be doing some testing on mtgo once the bans come into effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune
Downwards. That's where we're going. Man, they could've banned Counterbalance instead, but no let's chop the consistency of Tier 2 decks as well!Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune
Anyhow I don't think Painter is completely dead, depends on how meta shakes up. Mono-red with multiple bridges and Chandras shouldn't be too affected, but going for combo will be more risky. Welder shenanigans is one thing, but I'm more anxious about not having the possibility to float blasts on top of library anymore.
Losing top hurts, but we are still an extremely viable deck. I admit that I've won the vast majority of my games when top has been in play BUT the loss of top throws a lot of decks into chaos (and may very well kill miracles).
Remember, we thrive in chaos, lots of decks will have far less answers to artifacts in their lists because the threat of counterbalance/top has been countered.
There will be a lot more variance for sure. I am not happy with the ban. Even in mono-red, games with an active Top vs. w/o are pretty drastically different. For one, I think our lists will probably need to play a couple more Mountains because one of the reasons we got away with playing our greedy manabase is bc of Top. It seems we have to delay a turn or two to combo off bc we can't tap Top for Blast. Recruiter chain to find combo pieces lost its value. I think the deck will be a lot more linear.
-3 Top
+1 Land
+2 Scroll Rack ?
-3 SDT, -1 Basic Mountain
+1 Welder, +2 Gamble, +1 Great Furnace
I'll be trying this out. Have a damned IQ this weekend, so I guess I'll report back.
I think that there are a number of directions that you can go with it. Since top is no longer a thing I think that shaving a welder is now an option. I can't speak for the mono R version but for shortcake I think that you can go the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidw0lf
-3 Top
-1 Goblin Welder
+1 Chandra
+1 Bridge
+2 Removal Spells
If you're mono R I think you're kind of forced to play cards like faithless/gamble/etc although it might be time to start exploring some other splash colors. :tongue:
Probably something like this:
21 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Fetch Lands
1 Great Furnace
8 Mountain
17 Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite / Walking Ballista / Hope of Ghirapur
22 Spells
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Smuggler's Copter
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
The deck will be nowhere near as fun or interactive, and much more linear, unfortunately. :/
Stream for discussing where we're gonna have to go and potential ideas tonight 11pm eastern.