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Yes. 3x Death's Shadow in the main deck. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
I wouldn't play this deck in that way though. Shadow is risky, where Tombstalker isn't.
Both are uncastable at times, but at least Stalker is fine with you having lots of life. :smile:
Four library are there because if library is countered ; you may have an other one.
Furthermore turn two library is a turn three death's shadow -8 life then draw.
You close to always want a library in hand ; you have brainstorm to shuffle the redondant piece.
I have more wins when i draw library.
I personally would only play two; however, I may consider could easily see three being played but four is just too many. I don't think your foregoing explanation justifies playing four.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
After my terrible performance at SCG Seattle (1-3 drop, Fish is a terrible matchup) I played an updated list of my previous version this past Sunday:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lose Hope
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Vraska, the Unseen (filler spot)
1 [Can't Remember]
The biggest change is the complete removal of Force of Will and the inclusion of Dark Confidant. Before I always felt like I had a slow clock so I wanted to change that and take a more aggressive position.
This is all from memory, I'll update any changes later once I check my notes.
Round 1 vs. U/B Mill
Game 1: He has main deck Extirpate effects to help with his milling, one of which was a Shimian Specter that hit me and took Abrupt Decay. No big deal though since the only thing he had that I could hit with it was Deathrite Shaman from what I saw. Black Sun's Zenith was a huge pain in the ass. By the time the game ended, my deck was nearly empty and I only had 2 creatures left, thankfully one of those was in play and won me the game.
Game 2: He doesn't draw very many lands and I use Wasteland to keep it that way while I managed to beat him down.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 vs. LED Dredge
I knew what he was on beforehand as I heard "Bridge From Blow" during the previous round.
Game 1: I keep a non-Deathrite hand that was decent. He gets me with Zombie tokens (1-2) shortly before I'm able to finish him off.
Game 2 & 3: Extirpate on Bridge and Deathrite make it near impossible for him to win.
2-0; 4-1
Round 3 vs. RUG Delver
The matchup I've been waiting for. This is the reason I built BUG.
Game 1: I keep a decent hand, but apparently his hand was full of Wastelands (3) and Stifle(s). He didn't have any threats early on though so I was able to put up somewhat of a fight.
Game 2: Bob smacks me in the face with a Submerge so he plays around it and doesn't fetch Forests. I eventually hardcast it since mana wasn't an issue. Extirpate took care of his Stifles. Delver and Bob get there with Decay killing his threats.
Game 3: This was a very close game. TWICE I managed to forget Delver flips thanks to Bob. I would flip for Bob, then look for Delver and forget to reveal before putting it in my hand. He was going to let me flip anyways the first time but I declined since it was my error. He's light on lands but has Loam, however both times it was cast it was met with Flusterstorm. Bob kept flipping lands like a boss and the end came with the following:
I'm at 4 life, he has unflipped Delver, Volcanic Island and another (non-red) land. I know most of his hand from an earlier Extirpate. He reveals Lightning Bolt for Delver, in response I hardcast Submerge on his Delver and he REBs it. He could swing at me and put me to 1, but if he does he dies to attacks on my turn (assuming Bob doesn't kill me). He passes the turn since he has a Bolt in hand to kill me with next turn anyways. I flip for Bob and reveal a 1 putting me down to 3. I Thoughtseize him taking Bolt and putting myself at 1. I think I drew an Abrupt Decay off my normal draw then killed his Delver for the win.
3-0; 6-2
I'm the only undefeated at this point, but we do 4 rounds.
Round 4 vs. UW Miracles
This was what my 1 win was against at the Open, so I'm confidant in this matchup. We ID anyways and play it out since he wants to test against me.
3-0-1; 6-2-1 officially
Game 1: Abrupt Decay deals with Counterbalance and Rest in Peace (sooooo annoying). Bob and Deathrite deal with his life total.
Game 2: He gets the early RiP and I don't have any Decays in hand. He messed up at one point after playing Helm (with no mana open thankfully). On my turn I drew then Brainstormed (into Decay). If he countered my Brainstorm he would have won. I eventually take the game thanks in part to Liliana. He had Back to Basics out and I ultimated Liliana giving him either 2-3 basic Island and Detention Sphere (on Delver) or Back to Basics, 2 Tundras and 2 Plains. He took the pile with the Plains. Either way he was going to be shut off of 1 color unless he drew a source (He had a top on top of his library as well). I end up killing him with Thrun and an unflipped Delver. I tried casting Vraska earler, but he Forced it. :(
4-0; 8-2 in played games.
I'm liking the deck more, but it still needs more tuning. Lose Hope is still great. I think I'm going to move Liliana back to the board and cut 2 Strixes for a Goyf (only own 1 currently) and another threat. I love the card advantage of Strix, but Bob does it so much better. Also considering fitting 2x Garruk Relentless somewhere in the 75. Jace is also a consideration even though I think its a better fit in the control version.
Forgive me for nitpicking, but why is this report in the Aggro/Tempo thread?
You play no proper beatsticks, only 3 Wastelands, no Stifles and 21 lands + Deathrite Shaman.
The sideboard even has Thrun and Vraska. That defnitely is not a tempo oriented deck. :tongue:
Bob is nice though in the current meta. I'm thinking about playing the following:
Guys:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Confidant /12
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle.
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Abrupt Decay /30
Lands:
3 Sea
3 Trop
4 Catacombs
2 Rainforest
2 Delta
4 Wasteland /18
Side:
3 Vendetta
1 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Snare
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library /15
Playing some spot discard or Hymn to Tourach would be one of the better ways to utilize the BUG shell to play Tempo. Mirroring card for card selections from RUG -> BUG by replacing Bolt with Ghastly Demise doesn't achieve the same effect since Bolt is more versatile and can be used to close a game out.
BUG is inherently 0.5-1 turn slower than RUG for this reason, and having Discard to offset the reach is a good way to capitalize on the slower game plan.
I'm always a fan of more discard, but I'm sure you already know this.
How did you feel playing without Force of Will?
-Matt
That's funny. I'm only switching to black because I can now consistently beat Counterbalance. And Bob and the removal that actually kills Knights are nice as well.
Discard doesn't affect the board state and becomes a terrible topdeck in the mid/lategame. In addition, you can only cast discard as a sorcery, which makes decisions with hands like Thoughtseize + Stifle pretty awkward. I want to keep my mana open for Stifle, but I also want to Seize as soon as I can, so I know what I'm up against and can make informed decisions about my next plays. If I Thoughtseize, my opponent will fetch and Stifle may be a dead card in my hand for a couple of turns. If I keep mana open, I may not be able to Stifle anything and may have wasted the opportunity to cast Seize... That makes me not like discard spells very much. I'd rather just respond when my opponent goes nuts. A matter of style, I guess. :wink:
Actually, playing without Force of Will isn't such a bad idea. I side out Forces pretty often, and they are card disadvantage. They also make Bob kill me more quickly. Perhaps if I were to follow your advise and add discard anyway, I'd take out the Forces.
Ghastly Demise cannot kill shaman, bob or (consistantly kill)Knight. It is hard to afford so many "dead" cards in maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I figured it fit here best since it does say Aggro in the title. I agree that the version I'm running isn't Tempo based.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The lack of 'proper beatsticks' is what I've been working on. The current clock is slow, but not nearly as slow as you may think thanks to Deathrite.
I'm not a fan of Stifle currently as I'd rather be acting instead of reacting (at least in BUG). Same reason I took the Forces out.
Vraska was just a last minute fun addition to try against control, it will obviously be cut. Thrun is quite good in the Miracles matchup as their only out to it is Terminus. If they Verdict you can regenerate and they can't Counter/StP/Detention Sphere it.
Bob is very good and my wins were mainly off his card advantage.
I didn't really miss them at all. The addition of Bob and more discard put my opponents on the defensive more often than not. I do like the thought of Hymn, so I'll likely try those at some point. Do you think they would be better in the main or side?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
In Junk I'm playing them in the side, but that's for the matchups where I'm turning into the Tempo deck. I think since you ARE the tempo deck, why not try them in the maindeck as a 3-of and go from there?
-Matt
What would you suggest as removal that costs 1 and kills Merfolk lords, Mother of Runes, Delvers and so on? Disfigure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
Disfigure is seen recently in some tournament decklists. Dismember could also be treated as an "1-drop" spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
DarkblastQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Regarding creature combination, what creatures are ideal for bug delver and in what number. Seems there are many options nowadays.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Think the above eight is a must.
That leaves us with dark confidant, nimble mongoose, deathrite shaman or even tombstalkers. What are your opinions on this matter?
Baleful Strix also deserves a mention. So does Death's Shadow. Snapcaster Mage and V. Clique are also contenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
I wouldn't say Delver is an automatic 4-of because it requires you to keep your sorcery/instant count high.
Dark Confidant is nice, but you may not want to run FOW with it. Or you can run SDT and/or a 4 Ponders and/or Sylvan Library to help fix the top of your deck. You also can't run Tombstalker and DC together.
Mongoose and Tombstalker don't play nice together. Neither does Mongoose and Deathrite or Deathrite and 'Stalker.
I really like Deathrite right now.
Personally, I like 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3-4 Deathrite in a build that runs Stifle, Daze, and Hymn. Clique could fit well in this build. So would Baleful Strix. Clique for a combo heavy meta, Strix for a aggro heavy meta.
I posted this list on the last page, and am happy to see that both Hatfield AND Signorigni made it to the top 8 at the SCG Open this weekend with a list that has only 4 cards different in the main deck (-1 Snuff Out, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Deathrite Shaman, +1 Land, +1 Daze, +1 Tombstalker, +1 Sylvan Library). Now we have some solid results to back up my claims and silence the naysayers of Deathrite Shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
edit: Actually, 8, since they opted for Hymn to Tourach over Thoughtseize. But I think either card is worth the slot.
Deathrite Shaman is the real deal for BUG. EVERY deck playing black and green (outside of maybe some form of obscure combo) should be playing this card, even 'tempo' versions. It allowed Dan to 2-0 against DREDGE in the semi-finals. It is among the most powerful tools for battling against RUG and Snapcaster recursions, and gives BUG the reach needed to close out games that go late. I've also had many games that I was able to use the Shaman to get out of Waste-lock, and fixes mana for awkward spells to cast like Abrupt Decay.
Agree wcm8. I also understimated deathrite when it got spoiled and now he is the main reason to play BUG. Concerning BUG tempo - when people tried to take the RUG template and switch red with black removal I think you probably just got a bit of a more awkward/slightly worse RUG tempo version due to higher cmc & missing reach.
I played deathrite so far a lot in a controllish/midrange shell supporting Jace, but I can see deathrite beeing also strong in delver, since he adresses both problems I listed above (reach/mana). Aside from his other utility which wcm8 mentioned it can also be an effective way to generate tempo advantage using it with Daze & Wasteland.
The question: discard (target/Hymn) vs. stifle vs. Pierce/Snare is deciding. I surely want to attack the hand and if you also play with deathrite & delver you have a lot of early "tap out plays" and stifle becomes really awkward.
Tombstalker is questionable to me. Sure a big flyer is nice, but to me the cost of delve 6 is pretty high. Of course you try to eat the opponents gy first but it happens very regularly that you have to rely on your own with deathrite. I would try clique in this spot - much less body, but utility and to me "cheaper". Especially the UW matchup is where clique is miles better (vs. miracles, jace/bounce, hand control)
What is nice that with 20 lands and 4 deathrite you do have the option of going to a Jace plan from the sideboard if the games go long against UW,... This is something you so far did not have to fear from a delver deck.
Another card I am thinking about is snuff-out. So much potential as an early tempo bomb... but my main concern is that more often than not you will be the control deck vs. Canadian and 4 to the dome will hurt.
I would be interested to hear your experiences against UW. Playing a ton of RUG I know victories come from this little word "shroud". Does proactively attacking the hand before playing creatures really compensate? Also SD.top = ooouch!
Regarding the UWx matchup:
In general, BUG can be slightly favored if it can land an early threat and deny them the opportunity to stabilize. The main problematic cards are Stoneforge, Lingering Souls, and obviously Jace. All of these strategies can be addressed via the sideboard. Unfortunately, I see that Dan cut a few cards that would have given him the edge in the finals against his Esper opponent (more on this later..), such as Massacre, Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, or Engineered Plague. I also think Grafdigger's Cage and/or Scavenging Ooze are worth considering. I also would not discount Thrun, the Last Troll in the sideboard as a potential option against control decks -- their only out is some sort of board sweeper. Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck in multiples also isn't a bad idea. I also think Thoughtseize is probably slightly stronger in this matchup than Hymn to Tourach, since it can be used earlier and also can 'counter' the main problem of Stoneforge.
Lingering Souls is a card that shouldn't just be ignored. RUG adapted to this problem by playing some number of Sulfur Elemental, along with Forked Bolt. BUG has similar tools.
As for Miracles, Pithing Needle is very good, since it can answer both SDT and Jace. Vendilion Clique is of course fantastic.
Also, regarding Signorigni's finals' opponent: Obviously the guy ripped some obnoxious topdecks at the right time, and this had more to do with the outcome than either deck being favored or his playskill being better. Daniel pretty much had game 3 sealed, if not for his opponent finding, sequentially, the right cards for the scenario at hand.
Finally, a proposal for the deck going forward: If the deck were to play 4 Deathrite Shaman and 1 Volcanic Island, I could see a small red splash for sideboard options such Pyroblast being completely feasible. I have been testing a 4-color RUGB Cascade deck lately, and even there I don't have problems playing into four colors thanks to all the fetch lands and Deathrite's mana fixing. I think this is an idea that warrants consideration for BUG tempo.
Just wanna chime in real quick regarding Shaheen's topdecking abilities. He definitely does not cheat, he's a stand up guy and I've known him for a while, but he might in fact have some kind of pact with the Devil. More on the latter theory once I can finally nail down where he keeps the goat's blood and a seemingly endless supply of young virgins.