Yeah I would only bring him in if I had space after all the enchantment hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saff
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Yeah I would only bring him in if I had space after all the enchantment hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saff
What do you say about this list? It seems to be very well, or not?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35412
I don't like UB version of this deck.
1. With Underground Sea we have imo worse matchup with Merfolks - islandwalk.
2. Post bord we don't have such good things like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation or Firestorm.
3. I think that Tireless Tribe is still better than Hapless Researcher.
4. Brainstorm in replace of Breakthrough? Woot? I know that instant speed might be interesting (we can dredge in responce to Faerie Macabre for example) but I think that dredge 4 cards and putting back dredgers into graveyard is that what we want to do.
I've read his tournament report, where he got 16th in Nashville 10k. Well, he was very lucky and his list is extremely inconsistent (no surprise with 2 maindecked DR Targets plus Wonder).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bischof
I don't like the list at all tbh. Brainstorm is simply no option over Breakthrough, no idea where that idea comes from. Researcher is a weaker Tribe and the sideboard packs too many DR Targets.
I still think that the old idea of UB mana bases in Dredge is outdated nowadays. Cards like Tribe, Firestorm, Grudge and co are too important.
the list makes me cry. cannot be serious!10(!!!) dredge outlets...11 discard outlets, counting therapies, no speedbump ala breakthrough, a totally useless wonder, brainstorm is as viable as force( srsly, brainstorm?),totally messed up sb and taking researchers over tribes ...seems not soooo well tested. sure it kinda worked but there was a huge load of luck involved.
I am looking to start playing this deck, so how up to date is the Primer?
This article is a good start: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...cy_Dredge.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by LegacyDan
I think that explanation of the deck is still relevant to the current meta as the hate it uses against Reanimator (Leyline of the Void) can be applied to Survival decks with combo (Loyal Retainer+Iona/Emrakul and Vengevines)
It is up to date. But since the Ichorid thread was moved to the Becks To Beat forum, many LEDless players have moved over to that thread lately. So you might want to check that thread too.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyDan
Beware, there's a lot of BS in that article. But read the comments on their forum, some are pretty informative. Max McCall is hardly the person you should be learning Legacy from.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Dawg, I basically took his list in that article and day 2'ed Columbus with it. It's a good list, at least it was back then when the meta was different. Having no targets in the main gives you much more consistency at the cost of marginal power.Quote:
Originally Posted by makochman
Elaborate?Quote:
Beware, there's a lot of BS in that article.
Playing no MD Dread Return targets is a mistake which makes his list slower and more vulnerable to random locks. GGT is Path to Exile fodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
The consensus seems to be that Leyline of the Void is bad in Legacy Dredge. As a 3-of it must be even worse.
He's basically saying Dredge beats most of the field both game 1 and game 2, and GY hate doesn't matter. Because big tournament results (reality check!) don't support this claim, he says people have been playing the deck wrong, and his own list is the optimal, because he had some success with it. Someone on their forum pointed out the tournaments he won with Dredge were relatively small with weak top 8's, nothing to brag about. Dredge is a great deck, but it's unlikely to ever 'annihilate all of the StarCityGames.com Legacy Opens' because it's so hateable.
The arrogance is so annoying.
Well, I'm playing this list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Narcamoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
And tell you what, running no DR targets main is perfectly fine. I played in the Legacy event at GP Bochum on Sunday and went Top8 after an undefeated streak of
1-1-1 Thopter Foundry
2-0 GW Survival
2-0 GW Survival
2-0 Uwb StifleNought
2-0 Merfolk
2-1 Dredge Mirror (only because I got a gameloss)
2-1 Enchantress
ID
= 6/0/2, including one ID
In the top8, I got eaten by a StifleNought build which had, after sideboarding, 4 EE, 2 Crypt, 3 Trinket Mage to get those, 14 Counters, 4 Wasteland, and of course dropped 2nd Turn Dreadnoughts.
Nevertheless, I must say, and successful German Dredge companions agree, that kicking out DR targets of the MD for consistency is a great deal. If your Golgari Grave-Troll is Path to Exile-fodder, you're just doing it wrong. Ever heard of Cabal Therapy? Also, usually if you cast Dread Return, the target of the spell doesn't even matter since you get an ass-load of zombie tokens.
For further reference, this is my sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
1 Ray of Relevation
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Running these 2 targets in the SB is all I need and I feel that this is the way to go. I've of course played Dredge when it used to run MD-targets, and I can tell you from my experience, that this newer list is better tuned.
edit:
Might note that I won the Dredge mirror of exact that reason: He was playing targets, but couldn't manage to dredge consistently... So I just ate him up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lev
This list is a very good one in my opinion. Dread Return Targets are NOT needed so one shouldn't flood the deck with too many. This doesn't mean that it's strictly wrong to play one or two. Like Terastodon in a very Stax and Enchantress heavy meta (rare, I know) or FKZ or Iona in a pretty fast meta. Adding a Sphinx of Lost Truths is also an option, especially together with FKZ. Anyway, in general the deck needs consistency more than anything else, so it's perfectly fine to play no DR targets main.
Also if it's note-worthy, I won several small tournaments with the list in the course of the past few months (always 4/0/0ing).
maarten, if I read everything right, you only asked if Nature's Claim has taken over Chain of Vapor's slot?
That is true for the following reasons:
Nature's Claim handles the same cards, just better. Destroying but bouncing gives the advantage that you don't need to be able to go nuts after the bounce, for example if you bounce a Leyline eot, you need to dump a dredger into the yard and cast and resolve a Breakthrough on your turn. If you can't manage that our get your Breakthrough countered, and don't have a Therapy to get rid of the hate, it will just be there again. Claim solves problems definitely, and after sideboarding, you usually want to keep a hand involving a permanent discard outlet anyway, so rainbow mana should be given in any case. It is probably enough with 11 rainbow lands.
Thanks :) Very clear! Ill test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lev
Exactly my list. But I have to say that German dredge players are somewhat blessed because of Torremond(Dennis)'s excelent Primer on german forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lev
From having no DR targets to only running 3 Ichorids, it's just so well tested, explained and optimized. To me definately the non plus ultra LED-less list.
Ok, I have a few questions about boarding plans (explanations would be kind of you, not just plane +/- , you know:wink:).
I play that exact list but - 1 Therapy + 1 Ichorid in maindeck and that following sb:
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revealation
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Dread Return
1 Cabal Therapy
To go more into detail, I want to know these points:
Terastodon>Woodfall Primus, why?
Firestorm, against which decks and what is coming out for that?
How do is our matchup against Tendrils (Empty the warrens) based storm decks?
What do you guys board out for the Anti-Hate-Cards (Claim/Chain, Grudge, Ray)?
I really want that to know from more experienxed players to increase my performances with this deck. Dont get me wrong, I do not want to copy/paste anything but I want to know if those Tactics are superior to mine, because I got only mediocre results over all. Thank you
@HokusSchmokus
Yeah, I im tinkering on the Dredge lists together with Dennis since the release of Bloodghast. Btw he couldn't play the Legacy event on the GP because he made day 2 in the main event :P
@ I am the brainwasher
You can NOT cut Therapies! Running 4 Ichorids is absolutely fine if you like it more that way, but Therapy is like the most important single card of the deck.
About your SB in general:
Maybe you want to run Claim over Chain, i've explained that 2 or 3 posts before. Then, why FKZ? You would probably bring him in in Matchups where you need the speed, in which Ancestor's Chosen does basically the same, but also if you don't have so many Bridges.
Terastodon > Primus for the simple reason of being able to kill up to three permanents. Against the GW Survivals for example, in g2, I always reanimated Terastodon in turn 2, destroying their survival and both their lands, so they could basically just do NOTHING. Against decks like Enchantrss, you would also like to destroy 2-3 things at once, and Primus can kill maximum 2, and that is, only if you have a Therapy in the yard.
Firestorm is against Goblins so they won't race you and also against Merfolk for the same reason and for it is an uncounterable discard. I board out the cards I always do and additionally discard outlets, since Firestorm discards too.
The matchup against Storm deck depends on some things: 1) the dice roll 2) which version it is, for example TES is harder than DDFT because it's faster 3) how good the opponent is. And, probably the most important, how good you are at naming cards with Therapy. When playing against storm, it is usually an even matchup, but the dice roll favors one of both players alot. If the storm player is a good one, he probably has a little more chance for the win.
Cards you can board out: 1 Ichorid if you need to be fast, 1 Tarnished Citadel if your opponent doesn't run Wasteland, 1 Dread Return if you don't board in a target, 1 Golgari Thug, X Careful Study (how many slots you need).
A mistake many people do is boarding out the breakthrough because they dont want to die to a crypt or something after the breakthrough. Only do this against decks with SDT that might hide a Ravenous Trap inside it. Because: if you get rid of the hate card via grudge or Therapy, you might not have the time to dredge your opponent down because he can draw new hate. You must generate as much board advantage as you can in the short time you can play without fear for hate, and Breakthrough is a must for this.