Printable View
You should sideboard out Lynx in the mirror. You should also sideboard out Kird Ape in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Lynx is better than Ape, at the moment. Both are bad in the mirror, but it doesn't matter, because you should be SB'ing them both out.
*edit* Also, it's a mistake to be playing less than 2 Sylvan Library.
the library is not good in multiples, and if you have one in your opening hand and then draw the 2nd one, its basically a dead draw.
i dont want to ever topdeck it when i need a burn spell, blocker, etc. playing one is not a mistake.
tom ross (5k winner) also only played one.
i don't rely on the library, if i get it - great.
i think its obviously way better if you are playing vs control decks all day. if my meta had more blue decks, id consider playing 2.
in an aggro meta its a mistake to play 2.
I find that Sylvan Library wins the game in the mirror for example. Sylvan wins alot of games for me, especially against people with swords to plowshares as their spot removal.
that can be a testiment to card quality, im sure sensei's divining top would be better in the mirror than library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
if two decks are identical and play skill is comparable, he with more card quality will usually win.
The top needs mana and sylvan can draw extra cards. With Helix and Jitte from the board in the aggro mirror The extra life can be trades for more cards wich do happends.
Incidentally, you should be sideboarding out Helix in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Why may i ask?
Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. In the mirror, the cards you're worried most about are the big guys - Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. Helix doesn't deal with either of those, without 2-for-1'ing yourself. (Well, unless your opponent is terrible). The life is pretty much irrelevant. In fact, you should be bringing in 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Zoo mirror is all about who has the last big guy standing, and it's really awkward to be holding a Lightning Helix when your opponent has a 5/5 Knight or 4/5 Tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
You keep Bolt in since it's only one mana, and you still care enought about Wild Nacatl and Lavamancer.
This is also why you should be 'boarding out Kird Ape/Steppe Lynx. Ape, especially, can't attack through a Wild Nacatl and gets outclassed very quickly. Both of those cards die to every removal spell in the deck.
It depends on how much of the mirror you expect to see, but you should have at least four cards (I already run one Ranger maindeck, so I only bring in three cards) to bring in. Note, however, that these four cards should also be good against other decks.
Right now, I bring in 2 Swords to Plowshares and a second Ranger of Eos. Both Swords and Ranger are really strong in other matchups. If there's a lot more of the mirror in your meta, you can bring in more stuff.
*edit* If you only have 4 cards to bring in, but you run both 4 Ape/Lynx and some number of Helix, I recommend boarding out the Ape/Lynx. Unless you want to bring in Jitte (which you shouldn't, as I explain below) for some reason, in which case board out the Helix.
I do not recommend bringing in Jitte, however. It's okay to bring in one, since that at least makes your opponent respect it. But it's bad for the same reasons that Ape and Lynx are bad. The plan in the mirror is to kill all of their guys, anyway, so Jitte very rarely makes any difference. That is, you can never equip it and expect that creature to survive combat - it's a waste of both mana, a card, and, usually, a turn. (Obviously, sometimes you get lucky and you can get an active Jitte, which is why it's okay to have one. But that's pretty much just variance).
It's really useful to pay attention to other formats, since this is pretty common knowledge in Extended, and has been relevant in the Zoo/Red-based aggro matchup in a lot of past formats.
*edit 2* Just wanted to note that I don't mean to be or come of as condescending.
I've looked up your list (which I indeed overlooked) and it doesn't differ much from what I play. This leads me to conclude that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about at all. But I had that confirmed already if you have to ask these kind of things:Quote:
Originally Posted by stu55
This is what let me conclude you're actually afraid of midgame:Quote:
Originally Posted by stu55
Now, there might be something wrong with my interpretation and/or assumption skills but I can read.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu55
You haven't even tested FoD so I wonder how you know it's bad? I pick my cards when they have proven their worth to me. If other players come to different conclusions that's fine by me as long as they base their conclusion on their own real findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu55
Chain Lightning so weak, idk if you know. I hardly ever wanna see the card, and with Zoo being one of the most faced decks out there right now, it makes it even weaker. FOD isn't weak at all. The only different is that you get one less toughness early on, and if you ever draw one late, you make an 8/8, and 8/8s are good, idk if you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu55
And now you're seriously bashing my report? I've top 8ed with this deck more times than you've played games of Magic.
And Zoo is also an amazing midrange deck as well. Idk if you've read the primer, or any posts from a while back, but it works just as efficiently because you're still drawing the most efficient creatures in the format, AND the most efficient burn in the format. You also see people in recent pages running Ranger of Eos, so whynot call them out on that as well, it makes the deck more midrange, even though it's straightup good.
So the Loxodon <3 Neils (has anything good come out of Netherlands or the boondocks anyway?) love fest aside (seriously, t8 more than I have played...playing since '95 I seriously doubt that)
I am just saying, I rather listen to pros that did well with the deck in real events and not some randoms that decide to run river boa in the deck.
I just think I rather have a card that is more of an impact card when I cast it then a random dude that just appears and usually dies immediately.
the upside to figure of destiny is very high. he is great at every point in the game.
this is why i play 1, if you do not know how good he is, you should play test with it.
edit: it may be correct to play 2 or 3 like a few people on the thread have done.
plus, under a blood moon he does not suffer.
Not to break up your little love fest going on bet.l.. for christ sake.,. River Boa was one card in one persons deck, He explained why he ran it and admitted it may not have been ideal. Just because he enjoys "showing off" a little dosn't make him a bad player. What if the only decks he played that whole day were temp thresh? Then the Boa would be trully sick... Block goyf all day... O your goyf went plowing? Why don't I come say hi for a second?
The shop where i play actually has the most competitive metagame in Southeast USA if i do say so myself. We get 30 people weekly to play Legacy. We hold PTQs. Some of our players, oh yeah Probasco, worked on his 2nd place GP Chicago Counterbalance list there. Another one of our player top 8ed a SCG 5k. So please don't lecture me on where I'm from or where i place.
But seriously I'm done. Welcome to my ignore list stu!
Nice, and he deserves it, idiot. You also forgot to mention that you have to play against the best combo player in the south WOOOOT!!! sorry, its st. patricks day and i am drunk as hell. BUT ersiou;y , this thread is pure comedy gold, keep it coming!
But seriously, you're one of the best combo players i know. Well, the best i know haha. I would learn to play combo, but it feels like homework trying to learn Doomsday stacks:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Ty, it is basically homework! In order to play DD right you have to put in a lot of hours just goldfishing. What actually helps if you do want to learn how to play, put a basic Hybrid list together and print off the DD stacks and play the deck with the stacks beside you. But unless you play NLS, you really don't need to know more than about 4 DD stacks. But goldfishing is the key!Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.
Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.
I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.
I find this very interesting. I would say you would want to keep Helixes in. That way you can get rid of opponents Nacatls and even an occasional Tarmogoyf. This way you have more chance of getting your Nacatls trough and you can keep your STPs and PTEs for their big creatures. There might be situations where you otherwise have to use PTE and STPs for their smaller creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
Why would life gain be irrellevant in the mirror? I'm very interested in your thoughts behind that statement.
@Kird Ape. If there's anyone to blame for shutting down the conversation it's Stu55. He has been a bit of a dick.
Boarding out Helix in the mirror is pretty close to the worst idea I've ever heard. While I see the logic behind it, there are going to be a lot of times where -both- players have a large guy standing. Having Helix lets you win by trading swings. It's a -huge- swing in a damage race. There are other cards to board out if you actually have things worth boarding in.