what? no more stifle of that trigger?!
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what? no more stifle of that trigger?!
That still works. It says "can't be countered EXCEPT BY spells or abilities." So Stifle still works.
Yeah. I mean I don't know how it could fizzle. I mean it still works, but that clause threw me for a loop.
Anyhow that was a fun derailment but time to get back to Nic Fit.
What are some good piles for GBu?
Played Punishing Fire Fit Last night. 2-1-1 in swiss to make top 8 and finished with a top 4 split. If we had played I think I had favorable match ups. RUG, Rock, and UR delver.
Round 1: Maverick Lost 1-2
Basically never really got much going. I mulled into oblivion the 2 games I lost and the one that I won was thanks to Punishing Fire and Liliana.
Round 2 Bye I always get these!!! :( Got a Jap Tamiyo for my BUG standard deck through trading though!
Round 3: UW Delver Won 2-1
Game 1 He just had a lot of counters for everything I did. I could beat anything but a Geist of Saint Traft. Games 2 and 3 I stabilized at healthy Life Totals and my Broodmate Dragon was awesome.
Game 4: Stoneblade: Draw into top 8
Top 8: Maverick Same as my first round opponent.
This time I actually got good hands and I just did what Punishing Fire does vs Maverick. Neither Game was very close.
2-0
Next week I should have a better report thanks to the SCG Invitational and SCG Opens being here in Atlanta. I expect a lot of people to show up and be testing for Friday. May change my board up a bit in anticipation of a few Show and Tell decks. Definitely adding a Third Liliana to the board. Probably will end up dropping my grove and punishing Fire out of my SB for Liliana and either another durress or another edict effect.
I tied for first place at a small tournament (20-25 ppl):
2-0 vs. Affinity
2-1 vs. High Tide
2-1 vs. Burn
Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
Why Prime Time instead of Grave Daddy? GSZ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
@Slikwilly,
Yes, for GSZ. Volrath Tower pretty much seals games with Witness/Thrag/Planeswalkers. The beauty of this engine is that the cards work wonder independently and the combination is rarely worth siding GY hate for. If I could fit a Creeping Tar Pit, Primeval Titan would be perfect.
Wait. What happened to Gifts? Genesis? Oracle?
Congrats on the results. I see you favored more Walkers than the GSZ package and Gifts. How did the Walkers turnout? With fewer Creatures to search, going all Green is the way to go. What about the loss of acceleration due to no Oracle? What does Garruk bring to the deck with fewer creatures now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Can't find room for the tar pit? Itseems so good. The Jace slayer!
@Qweerios
I've got to ask, what are your thoughts on Recurring Nightmare versus Volrath's Stronghold? Because I really like the synergy you got going with Tower and Stronghold, but I'm impartial to Recurring Nightmare's explosive capabilities.
Huh. Looks cool, might have to try it out, though lacking trops is a problem for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Any of you multi-variant players think that playing a variety of Nic Fit decks improves your overall skills with your preferred version? Or does it just muddy the picture? I'm too invested in a rector build now to change but the others seem fun in their own way.
Speaking of rector builds, I tried rusalka tonight. Definitely enabled some nifty otherwise impossible plays. That card needs a nickname though. I nominate 'crack ho' thanks to a thought process that probably only makes sense to me... :eyebrow:
Playing different styles makes you fammiliar with the different archetypes. But more importantly is knowing what kind of player you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
I am playing BUG with splash, I like conmbo and cantrips that is my playstyle, wich doesnt get boring. I am not very fnd of attacking.
so *dumb creatures like tarmagoyf I dont like at all*
Other point that is important, knowing your deck inside out and ofcourse the meta.
I have been playtesting a bit on mws lately (10 games orso) and Now I have learned again that the deck is extremely difficult to play yet very powerfull.
if I lose its mostl because of a severe misplay, mostly I win though with misplays or non optimal plays..
Get focussed and you will dream the deck. But before you do, know what your playstyle is.
Mud Stacks, Combo, Ramp, Conrtol, Denial... very important for at least me
I have played rector as an early build which originates from the alluren build I had to go turn 2 aluren. After tinkering I have played it with the same engine targets: recurring nightmare, day of the dragons and even decree of silence.
The thing is you can do allot, the danger in my perspecitive is that it is very easy to build a deck and just become a weaker version of anything else.
The engine is solely made for warping to mid-late game AND have a clear edge over the opponent. With that in mind most or all have a form of board control. and then you decide which pathyou take.
For instance if you want fast agro, better play goblins.. or combo go for hightide or ant..
my game plan is:
hand disruption
board control
options that I have:
Combo - palinchron - recurring nightmare
Denial - Iona
Board control - Kederek leviathan
Plays as follow
Gitaxian probe
Therapy
Veteran explorer - therapy
intution
Versus mono colorered standard play:
Iona-unberrial rites-gigapede
Kederek leviathan versus Show and Tell / Planeswalkers / big mobs
Kederek leviathan + animate death = each turn bounce the board
Palingchron + recurring nightmare infi combo
palinchron + phantasmal image is Ramp
Phantasmal image - palichron = ramp
Phantasmal image - kederek is show and tell loop
Phantasmal image - random mob unremovable since it dies when it becomes a target yay
playing with unearth for: phantasmal image/eternal witness/veteran explorer
and ofcourse the random ooze which just wins games due to the removal and life gain.
still thinking wheter i should play woodfallprimus or karn
SB plan atm
Show and Tell + package
Carpet of flowers
Gaddog Teek
Loaming Shaman
With rector your gameplan should be something similar because when youcast rector you want to sac it imidiatly and win. So combo
perhaps you want to share your list so we can analye and perhaps make it even better then it already is
with rector I keep thinking of aluren, its a really fun deck to play. and like I said, you can go turn 2 with daze backup or handdisruption
You have to have recruiters though, and they are not easy to obtain.
@Star Scream,
I droped the Gifts package 2 weeks ago. It eats up a lot of deck space, and opens you up to GY hate. T2-3 Jace is often better than Gifts. Oracle are nice, but I think Decay will quicky replace them.
@EpicLevelCommoner,
If you look back in the thread, you will find a discussion on Recurring Nightmare. All I will say is that I think it is win-more in version non-rector. As for Volrath Tower, I have been playing it since my first successful GB Nic Fit list using Primeval Titan and Treetop Villages (a version I might go back to when Decay comes out).
@Slikwilly,
I personaly played/own every iterations of Nic Fit except for Jund Fit that I recently sold (before scapewish). I think that what makes you a good Nic Fit player is reflected in your use of Therapies, sequencing of plays, and build-up of your manabase in a tricolored version. These are the things I tend to focus on more during a game because:
-Therapy considerations makes you keep track of your opponent's potential plays;
-Sequencing your plays reflects the importance of certain cards in your hand with regards to surviving the first turns vs. resolving important spells against counterspells;
-Planing your manabase with regards to your color requirements, CMC curve, and land availlability while considering potential disruption is key to getting a game going.
As for KMS' "playstyle" take on Nic Fit playing skills, I explained before that I don't believe in playstyle as an argument for anything really. The term gets tossed around a lot (I know Arianrhod employs it regularly) and often times can be substituted by: "my opinion" or "my personal preferences". However, as a general guideline to play Magic, I agree that it is important to know what strikes your fancy as you play, but I don't think it reflects any measurement of what makes you good at playing a certain archetype. A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc... Personal preferences don't come into play during a game, they merely affect your deck choices, which is not to be confused with card choices.
. . . seems like I have a lot of digging to do, both for bruizar's intuition build and for the discussion on Recurring Nightmare in non-rector versions.
Anyhow, I see what you're saying in response to KMS, but to be fair, some card choices are less obvious than others, hence why there are so many potentially viable variants of this one archetype (3 of which I'm fairly confident have been proven viable [RectorPod, BG-straight, and Scapewish]), and I believe KMS was asking if playing different variants of Nic Fit improved one's ability to play with Nic Fit as a whole.
Which I'm curious: does it? Because then that opens up the potential for transformational sideboards.
What kind of transformational are you thinking about?
I love being graveyard heavy in game one and then if nessecary going transformational with show and tell, letting the opponent board in a pile of crap
What kind of transformational idea'a do you have?!? Im very curious about your build and thoughts
I still need to implent a natural order package
Woodfall primus
Progenitus
Woodspine Wurm
Broken with cantrips yeah baby! And ofcourse pimped out! Im expecting a pimp pic from brewsars MUB pile of pimp
Yeah something like that. More or less sticking with the same archetype, but changing how you win the game.
@EpicLevel -- One quick word -- Rector notequals RectorPod. In fact, Rector, which does figure into Pod lists, is not a limiting name for Pod. Pod is Pod. Rector is Rector -- two different versions. I can't speak for Pod, but Rector has definitely been proven viable. BUG has been close a couple of times, but I don't think that anyone outside of Qweerios has reported longterm success with it. Caffrey started really strong and then scrubbed, and I think Caleb got what, like 20-something-th?
And yeah, you do have a lot of reading to do =)
@The "other versions make you better" Theory -- The things that you get better with by playing other versions are things that you get better with by playing your "primary" version, IMO. Like naming with Cabal Therapy -- that's a skill that will improve no matter what version of Nic Fit you're playing, so long as you're playing Nic Fit. I personally play other versions not because I want to get better with the archetype overall, but because I enjoy them. I enjoy this archetype, not just "this deck" or "that deck." There are other prevailing reasons, like winds, such as local metas, mood, etc, of course -- but overall I count myself as a Nic Fit player and designer first, and a Rector player/Scapewish player/BUG player/whatever a distant second.
@Personal playstyle preference -- Since Qweerios kind of shipped this ball into my court, I'm going to try my best to explain my position on it. I'll warn you now that this may grow long, and that I have a headache, so I may make less sense than usual. You have been warned.
I am a firm believer in the principle that when we want to do something, we do better at it.
This seems like it's totally obvious, but bear with me.
I could pick up TES, and play it. I'm not gonna say I'm going to play it optimally, or even close to well. In fact, I'll probably make a pile of mistakes and rage my way into the 0-X bracket, which will put me on lifetilt, and make me angry outside of the game. That said, I'd probably do some things right. I'll borrow this from Qweerios:
I agree with this. But I put a lot of stock into the notion of mental state. If for some reason I wanted to play TES...actually WANTED to...I could probably do a passing good job at these categories. But it would take a strange day for me to want to play that deck, so the likely truth is that I would fail Qweerios' classifications of "a good magic player."Quote:
A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc
Qweerios and I agree up to the point where archetype selection ends. I don't think there are many people who are going to say that, in legacy, if you play anything but the "best deck," you're doing it wrong. Legacy is a much more open format, where it's usually hard to determine what the "best deck" is. Legacy players are also more likely to devote themselves to an archetype, because of the non-rotational way the format works. Look at Nick Patnode. The man knows his goblins. He's played goblins for basically ever, and he can do stuff with that deck that shouldn't be possible. It doesn't matter that goblins isn't always a good choice for a tournament. He rocks it anyway, and it usually works out well for him. Only the spikiest spikes will say otherwise.
So yeah. You like Nic Fit. Congratulations. Now what?
I'm going to note here that I'm unsure of where Qweerios leaves off. I think I know from our previous debates on the subject, but I don't want to put words in his mouth, so I'm going to switch to using "some people," just in case. I do respect his opinion, and I mean no offense.
Some people say that within an archetype, there exists a "perfect deck." Now, this ideal of a perfect deck is somewhat akin to the New Critics. If anyone here's studied Lit Theory, you can probably guess where I'm going with this. For the rest of you: the New Critics basically said that reader interpretations and personal preference is meaningless, because there is only One True Correct interpretation of a text, namely, that of its author. As such, they focused a lot of work in finding out what they called the authorial intent of a work. Now, there are all kinds of problems with this, and I don't want to get into a tirade on New Criticism, because I dislike their viewpoint a great deal (I tend more towards mythopoetic posthumanist interpretations, with a hint of Marxist theory splashed in for good measure). One True Correct Interpretation is very similar to the Perfect Deck. Just as there is a correct interpretation and everything else (and everyone else) is wrong, there is a perfect 75. I won't even say 76, because most thinkers in this vein are too strict to bend even that little.
Now, they'll couch their terminology in language that evokes flexibility. "Oh, I mean there's a perfect deck for this tournament." And that may well be true. There may well be a combination of cards that, based on the strict data of the event, who shows up with what decks, configured in what ways, etc, such that you can have a statistically best chance of beating every person in the room. I don't doubt that this exists.
However, where I disagree is that this viewpoint discounts the human. It discounts that certain people, after playing a certain deck for a certain amount of time, can ignore the odds. It discounts the mental state of mind that you can get in when playing a certain deck, configured your way, not just "the" way. I'm more mystic than scientist, I'm afraid.
So let's bring things back to Earth with a long-raging debate, which I will preface by stating that I'm using it as an EXAMPLE. I have NO desire to start this fire again. It's just an example.
Let's go back to the Liliana of the Veil debate for just a few minutes. Liliana is a powerful card, and I strongly appreciate her in certain decks, specifically those with Punishing Fire and/or Life from the Loam. However, some people are staunch supporters of Liliana, and regard her as something of a sacred cow, like, say, Green Sun's Zenith. If you cut (or choose not to run) Liliana of the Veil, then you are moving your deck further away from the Perfect Ideal (let's change terminology to get a little Plato in here), and making the tournament you're going to harder to win.
What does Liliana of the Veil do? I have a sinking feeling that this section is going to revive the old debate, and I'll reiterate again that that is not my wish. It's merely the easiest example to understand.
Liliana of the Veil does the following:
Keeps both players in topdeck mode, unless one player has a means of drawing multiple cards in a turn.
Synergizes really, really well with flashback spells, Life from the Loam, Punishing Fire, and similar cards that return to your hand, providing you with a means of keeping your opponent hellbent.
If you don't have either of these options, Lily limits the number of things that are capable of happening in a game to those which are onboard and those which are on the top of the deck. If you have a Sensei's Top, you're likely in a good spot because your deck manipulation should be better than your opponents'.
However, they might have a Top.
However, they might be playing Brainstorm.
However, they might not have the three lands on top of your deck that you do.
However, they might have a better board presence than you do.
However, they might be playing Reanimator (obv. you don't +1 here, but bear with m)
However, they might be playing Sneak Attack.
However, they might be playing Burn.
Etc. The list goes on forever.
The point is not that there are a lot of "might be"s that interfere with your plan. The point -is- your plan. By playing Liliana of the Veil, you're committing yourself to one of the possible eventualities. You will keep both players hellbent. You will break PFire. Etc. But the opportunity cost of that decision leads to all of these problems.
But that isn't even the biggest problem with Liliana of the Veil. The biggest problem is one of personal preference.
I, personally, prefer not to play Liliana of the Veil.
Why would I do this? Why would actively injure my chances of winning an event? Why would I design my deck to be further from the Perfect Ideal? Isn't this just crazy? Everyone agrees!
Ignoring the mob mentality, what does NOT playing Liliana of the Veil do?
Both players are not constrained to be hellbent.
That's really just about it. Sure it gives you some slots in your deck, it means you don't need double-black early, and it means you have a longterm plan vs something like Enchantress by putting all of their permanents in piles. But really, at the core of the issue, that one central point stands out.
Isn't your opponent being hellbent a good thing? Hell yes it is. However, in my opinion, in my PREFERENCE, having cards in hand is a good thing. They represent future options, as yet untold opportunities. Threats that have no answer, and answers that have no threat to solve yet, but which might be lurking behind any rip off the top.
Liliana of the Veil leaves the game up to "luck." I quotation luck here because it isn't really luck. I understand that. You have Top, you have the best topdecks in the entire format, you have heaping piles of board presence. Nic Fit isn't a deck that lives in its hand, it lives balls-out, with its junk plastering the table, only occasionally spurting across its opponents' boards with wracking convulsions that ruin their day.
I may have gotten a little involved in my metaphor.
Anyway, I hope that the context was enough to get the idea across. Our hands aren't important, so why do I insist on keeping mine as opposed to reaping the benefits of Lily?
Because it's my preference. I play better when I have a hand. It's just that simple. And before the trolls come out of the woodwork asking why I'm playing -this- deck, then, when it so obviously doesn't require or often desire having a hand, I'll just preemptively point at the results, and at my history in this thread.
The Perfect Ideal deck is not the Perfect Ideal deck for every person. Removing the human element, that of preference, removes the strength of the deck. I could time-travel back a few years and play Mystical Reanimator, which was arguably the closest to a "best deck" the format has had in the past few years (personal opinion. Survival wasn't that bad, people were just lazy.). But that doesn't mean that if I'm playing the Perfect Ideal deck for an event, that I'll do well with it. It isn't to my preference. I mean sure, it's a powerful monster and I'll get some mileage out of it. But I value my human desires much more strongly than the coldness of math.
So if I play a tournament with a Nic Fit list sporting Liliana of the Veil, I won't do as well, even if it's a better choice for the deck on that given day (I've actually tried this).
I feel like I've gotten a little far afield here, so I'm going to pull back to reality with a quote from my esteemed colleague's post:
I'm not sure if Qweerios means card choices in the sense of individual card selection in an archetype (ie Lily in Nic Fit), or card choices as in which card you play when (ie do I brainstorm this mainphase or hold it to dig for a counter). Regardless, saying that personal preferences don't come into effect during a game is something that I disagree with.Quote:
A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc... Personal preferences don't come into play during a game, they merely affect your deck choices, which is not to be confused with card choices.
If I'm playing vs Sneak and Show, I guarantee you that I'm going to play worse than if I'm playing against Maverick. Hell, I have recent evidence of this from Jupiter (well, as "evidence" as can be when we're talking about something like this). I played against five Ermakul decks rounds 1-5. Now, I hate Ermakul decks with an everloving passion. They're stupid, they're not fun to play against, they're too strong, whatever excuse you'd like to put in my mouth, go ahead. I fucking hate Emrakul as a card both from a game standpoint and from a design standpoint. It's like you have a 3-yr-old a crayon and some pens and told him to design a card.
I did not enjoy playing against those Emrakul decks. They were not my preference. This does not mean that I didn't still play well enough to beat three of them. But I know I made mistakes and slips up that I wouldn't have otherwise made, because my confidence wasn't there. Confidence is another one of those esoteric concepts that statistics can't really say much about. When you're confident, you play better. You make more correct plays, actually, would be a better way to put it. Here's a definition: [b]When you're playing in your preference zone, you're playing more confidently/[b]. This seems to me to be a good thing.
When I played against Maverick later that day, I was feeling pretty confidant. Relieved, even. Here was something that was a good matchup at long last. The games I played with Jesse that round were some of the most lopsided blowouts I've ever had against Maverick in the 15-odd months I've been playing this deck. Nothing about them was even slightly close...or at the very least, that's how it felt to me. Maverick was my preferred opponent, and there was nothing he could do to stop me.
I feel like I've gotten a little far afield yet again, unfortunately, so I'm going to pull out...I mean back....what? And provide a summary.
I reject the notion that there is ever The Perfect Ideal deck for any given event, and that theoretically everyone in the room should strive to locate it.
I will bend as far as to say that there is a Perfect Ideal deck for any given event with any given pilot, however. My Perfect Ideal deck is different than Qweerios' Perfect Ideal deck for the same event, in my opinion.
Preference is confidence. Confidence is match win slips. The more you prefer your deck and your opponent, the better plays you will make throughout, which will convert directly into wins. Playing to your preferences therefore helps you win.
Now, I'm going to go rest a bit, because I've tired myself out posting this =( I hate being sick =.=;; but at least I'm recovering quickly.
I'll try to post some more thoughts on various topics for you all later. I'll just close for now though by once again stating that none of that is meant as a personal attack on anyone who feels the opposite way that I do (thinking of Qweerios in specific, as he's been a very vocal supporter of that viewpoint). My opinion was summoned, and in my delusional state I felt it was a good idea to share it =)
I don't mean to add fuel to the liliana debate because it has gone on for awhile, but kind of like you said, we play off of the top of our deck. I'd rather make it into both of us doing it. My personal preference. Plus having an edict is sweet. I understand what you mean though. Sometimes you either don't like playing with a card or are not good at it despite it being powerful. A friend of mine has won a couple of legacy opens this year playing UR Delver, and he even admitted that when Jace was in standard he didn't play Jace because he just wasn't good enough. It really pays to play what you know how to play.
Not saying you aren't good enough to play with Liliana, you're probably better than me, just giving an example
If you go for Natural Order, then you'll want sources of card advantage and plenty green creatures with a CMC of 3 or less (because if you're deck is top-heavy, then you might as well just cast those creatures instead of NO). So when playing with NO, you'd probably want 3 Eternal Witness instead of 1 or 2, probably a Kitchen Finks, and cards which still have good utility even in the late game but are still CMC 3 or less, stuff like Ohran Viper, Knight of the Reliquary or even just straight-up cantrip cards like Wall of Blossoms, Elvish Visionary, Heart Warden or Yavimaya Elder. Yavimaya Elder looks pretty decent. 3 mana for a 2/1 that gives you up to +3 CA and acts as an extra Explorer?Quote:
Originally Posted by KMS