[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by slave

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

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I'm on monoblack and I run one ensnaring bridge mainboard, so if I have it in my opening hand along with
a dark ritual AND I can empty my hand fast enough then I will play the game 1.
If not (99.9% of the time), I concede at the moment I know opponent is on Dredge.


Game 2-3 I board in
4 LotV : Against reanimator and dredge , I won't keep a hand without graveyard hate anyway, so Leyline is my choice for that reason alone.
3 Engineered plagues
1 Ensnaring bridge (I also play 1 mainboard)
1 NoSB (I also play 1 mainboard )



Out : Cards that make them choose the card they discard, Land destruction, taxing effects(trinisphere, Nether Void)

I mulligan into Leyline. That usually buys enough time to slam E-Plague on zombies, NoSB and ensnaring bridge.
They can't answer ALL these lock pieces so they lose, locked out of the game.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

.i like the tombstalkers in your build..with all that disruption, its bound to resolve..its like "kicking-the-table-and-then-kill-your-opponent-while-he's-down" strategy..and yes, the diamonds would've been awkward with shardless agent if it weren't for the brainstorms and library so good deckbuilding there..would you consider running top too? maybe a 1/1 split between it and the library?
what match-ups did you consider when you added the singleton academy ruins at the side? was it there to recur the engineered explosives? what do you think of buried ruin?

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Tombstalker has been awesome. I actually added a 3rd copy for the increased draw reliability. There have been so many games where he just closes it out quickly and my opponent can't do anything about it. The flying is extremely relevant there as well.

Unfortunately I have had 3 instances where I cascaded blind into Mox Diamond. It is certainly even worse when I don't at least have a land in hand that I can pitch to it. Overall I haven't been upset or disappointed in the explosive plays that Diamond offers. Often I have had turn 1 Library, Hymn, etc into turn 2 Shardless, cascade into relevant spells.

I am not a fan of Sensei's Divining Top for the fact that it turns into a mana sink and we are still pox after all, so at times mana can be tough. I like Library for the fact that I can drop it and invest no further mana to fix my top decks, and it allows me to draw extra cards in slow grindy games where I can easily use my life total as a resource.

I was testing Academy Ruins specifically to reuse Shardless Agents as well as EE. I have had a few matches where it was relevant, but not too many. It may be incorrect to run, but it seemed worth it. I don't like Buried Ruin for the fact that it requires itself to be sacrificed. I find you have to use Life from the Loam as well as a whole land drop to get any real value from it and that is what turns me off to it. Ruins at least can activate for the same mana/land investment and doesn't require me to dredge more, or lose a land drop.

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Originally Posted by slave

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

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I play GB pox, main board crop rotation for bojuka bog, and the interaction of Mishra's factory and wasteland (or cabal pit or smallpox or liliana) is really good at keeping them off bridge from below. Oh yeah and Tabernacle!

One of my good friends play Dredge religiously and say that his match-up against my GB Pox is one of the worst game 1 match-ups he has ever played.

Vs dredge i as a GB Pox player take in taxing effects, if I actually manage to land my graveyard hate and a sphere of resistance they usually can't cast another spell that game

Pox 16th place at SCG 5k 12/6/15

Very light green splash for Abrupt Decay and Choke, I assume this is a consideration for the Miracles match-up

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=95889

Pox - Jason Deiss

16th Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 12/6/2015

Legacy

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (24)
1 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Spells (31)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Mox Diamond
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dark Ritual
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Grim Tutor
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Nether Void


Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Nether Void

Wow, a Golgari flavored Pox WITHOUT Life from the Loam? A single black sun's?

Wait a sec, if it's the last card in your library, for whatever reason, if you can keep casting it, even for 0 counters, does that mean you'd never die to going 'brain dead'? Assuming enemy has no way to force you to draw cards, or he's not smart and won't brainstorm you.

I really like this build, in fact, I could figure out a way to make it mono-black with minor changes since Abrupt Decay and Choke are the big greens here.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Wow, a Golgari flavored Pox WITHOUT Life from the Loam? A single black sun's?

Wait a sec, if it's the last card in your library, for whatever reason, if you can keep casting it, even for 0 counters, does that mean you'd never die to going 'brain dead'? Assuming enemy has no way to force you to draw cards, or he's not smart and won't brainstorm you.

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Not 100% sure what you mean 'brain dead', but yes you could hypothetically just cast Black Sun Zenith and reshuffle it into you library every turn and not die to mill, seems like a corner case. They have to counter black sun or mill it directly into you library to stop that. Also not sure what you mean by 'brainstorm you' since there are not many cards that say target player draws beyond Ancestral Recall.

Maybe you are not referring to mill. in which case ignore the above.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I really like this build, in fact, I could figure out a way to make it mono-black with minor changes since Abrupt Decay and Choke are the big greens here.

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Abrupt Decay and Choke seem to be primarily for the Miracles match-up so if you plan to make a mono black version I'd focus on that match-up when replacing those cards. The 4th Mox Diamond to help with more turn 1 Chalice of the Void may be good. Extra Chains of Mephistopheles seems good too, especially when you are playing it turn 1. Your favorite tech of Contamination may be a good substitute in the Choke sideboard slot.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

Not 100% sure what you mean 'brain dead', but yes you could hypothetically just cast Black Sun Zenith and reshuffle it into you library every turn and not die to mill, seems like a corner case. They have to counter black sun or mill it directly into you library to stop that. Also not sure what you mean by 'brainstorm you' since there are not many cards that say target player draws beyond Ancestral Recall.

Maybe you are not referring to mill. in which case ignore the above.



Abrupt Decay and Choke seem to be primarily for the Miracles match-up so if you plan to make a mono black version I'd focus on that match-up when replacing those cards. The 4th Mox Diamond to help with more turn 1 Chalice of the Void may be good. Extra Chains of Mephistopheles seems good too, especially when you are playing it turn 1. Your favorite tech of Contamination may be a good substitute in the Choke sideboard slot.

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I'm saying brain-dead as in mind sculpted. :eek: Can't draw any more cards but your Black Sun? Sure, hopefully you have so much land by that point you can melt any threat they cast, unless they instant miracle you [god I hate that loophole]. Milling applies too, but milling will kill you if they can do it on command, say, on your Draw step. It would be very amusing to defeat an opponent because you just kept looping a Zenith melting any creature they cast and win the game cause they ran out of deck. :tongue:

I've been able to squeeze back two Crucible of Worlds and I think I can get Contamination back as well... :eek: Of all the cards in my collection, Contamination is the last thing in the universe my Miracles rival wants to see. At least with Choke, he can still cast his white spells or wait on a big Entreat. With Contamination, unless he has his GY hate, it's instant loss. He can't even cast his Council's Judgement or Detention Sphere to stop me. Muahahah! :cool:

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

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i'm not sure where you're going with this one, are you suggesting we run more expensive spells in our deck to improve our match-up against it?

personally, i find pithing needles on top very good against them..an early resolved trinisphere also hurts them a lot..i like running a pair of tombstalkers to clock them; oftentimes, relying on just scrolls or factories to bring em' down allows them time to recover..

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

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i'm not sure where you're going with this one, are you suggesting we run more expensive spells in our deck to improve our match-up against it?

personally, i find pithing needles on top very good against them..an early resolved trinisphere also hurts them a lot..i like running a pair of tombstalkers to clock them; oftentimes, relying on just scrolls or factories to bring em' down allows them time to recover..

Yes, the spells pox play tend to be more expensive. This is something of an advantage in this specific match-up. Also Miracle players usually board out Force of Will because we play Hymn to Tourach. This plays even more into our hands. Pox often get resolved.

That goes against the Legacy protocol of a cheaper mana curve and running more expensive spells can cause issues vs. low mana speed decks besides Miracles.

I like it. :laugh:

Miracles goes long and we have the resources to go long as well. Problem is the inevitability and speed of a top decked Entreat the Angels. Or instant speed Entreat with SDT. E. Bridge is a god send.

I actually never put too much faith in Black Sun Zenith due to mana cost, but at turn 15+, I always find myself with 6 or more lands so melting or seriously nerfing anything on the field could work. Fact it comes back some time and more often the longer the game continues could be an advantage, though in a tournament where time is limited, that may not be worth it. BSZ is also hard to Counter-Top since the mana cost can be pumped up to well above the Miracle Mana curve.

Yes, a quick Entreat the Angels is nasty. (My latest Miracle opponent boarded them out, however, which i think was a mistake.)

Stoping Miracle is difficult. I have needles but perhaps i am better served by something that do damage.
I actually brought Jinxed Idol to a tourney once for this job. I recall it worked but not if i won the duel...

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Also Miracle players usually board out Force of Will because we play Hymn to Tourach. This plays even more into our hands. Pox often get resolved.

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i think i may have to disagree with this one, i have a miracles player in my play group and he never boards out his FoW's against me coz' he wants to counter that first turn liliana via dark ritual, or that first turn pithing needle on top or jace..

they do board out some copies of StP's because our creatures can dodge it..thats why a pair of tombstalkers in the board can be deadly..i prefer playing them in the main though..

but he's just one player i often test with, any pox player here who also has an experience on piloting miracles? can we verify this? does MIRACLES board out their forces of will against pox?

As a rule, yes. Decks that run FoW (not necessarily miracles) tend to board them out. They see they do not need to stop a combo deck, and figure the cards are a weakness in a grindy game against a card advantage deck.
They can board in other counters of course, like a flusterstorm or two.

It comes down to experience. I change my deck so often that my meta cannot predict it, and unlike you friend, they get no Pox experience to help them in their decision making.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

As a rule, yes. Decks that run FoW (not necessarily miracles) tend to board them out. They see they do not need to stop a combo deck, and figure the cards are a weakness in a grindy game against a card advantage deck.
They can board in other counters of course, like a flusterstorm or two.

It comes down to experience. I change my deck so often that my meta cannot predict it, and unlike you friend, they get no Pox experience to help them in their decision making.

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I have played just about all these decks, a Miracles player should not being taking out FoW against a pox deck, the match-up comes down to a few high impact cards like Liliana, Chains of Mephestopheles, or Pithing Needle. After those cards hit the field their only answer is council's judgment or maybe wear//tear. My game play against miracles is to overload their council's judgment.

Decks like delver on the other hand should take out FoW because they want to win the card advantage war and FoW is card disadvantage.

Having liliana, needle and chains in play is not game winning in itself, and thus the Miracle player does not need to board in hate for them.
A top decked Entreat the Angels is still GG. Or SFM, for Batterskul, out of sideboard.

It is worse for us: Jace is, unlike liliana, a win con in itself:p and it is hard to handle the other threats.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Having liliana, needle and chains in play is not game winning in itself, and thus the Miracle player does not need to board in hate for them.
A top decked Entreat the Angels is still GG. Or SFM, for Batterskul, out of sideboard.

It is worse for us: Jace is, unlike liliana, a win con in itself:p and it is hard to handle the other threats.

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Smallpox, wasteland and ultimateing Liliana keep them off land drops for entreat, chains makes it difficult for them to miracle outside of their turn and I also play green so I have abrupt decay, garruk relentless, and maelstrom pulse the latter 2 beat jace pretty well.

Use wastelands on dual land so that your smallpox take out basics, I have won many games against miracles to them fetching and realizing they don't have enough mana to cast a jace or meaningful entreat.

If they sideboard into a Stoneforge mystic package against a small pox deck they are an idiot and you should win easy.

SFM is a problem for me.
If i got a threat in play i may force them to gamble that i have no answer, but otherwise they simply play it when ready.