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I think the old classic Hymn/Lili build would be the best Delver suit for fighting the new Eldrazi deck. But it's weaker against Miracles for example, so I think we have to wait a couple of weeks to see how strong the impact is gonna be...Stifle just does near to nothing against them but is better against Miracles, we will see. It's not impossible that the Eldrazi deck will push back Miracles a bit because Miracles has a hard time fighting them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerlic
I've always been lukewarm on MD Disfigure, but Dismember and Go For the Throat I can get behind more readily. More than 1 Cut seems clunky but it's probably easy enough to avoid it when you don't want it. I tested a 1/1 Disfigure/Dismember split a few weeks ago and it seemed fine, though I didn't test the Eldrazi matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
More generally, I'd say that you want 2 Lilianas somewhere in the 75, as well as Disfigure, Cut, or another piece of targeted removal that gets big creatures. I'd probably start from Saito's GP list and work in the second Liliana, the new removal suite, and probably another artifact or enchantment to grow Goyf more reliably.
Has anyone tried Disrupt in the Stifle build? It has wider use compared to Divert and cantrips.
It's not a good choice. If you want something like that, play Flusterstorm.
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From what I can tell, would this not compete with daze in some way? They seem like they're trying to do the same thing. Daze is the better choice in my opinion as it's a free spell rather than always paying 1 for the effect, even if it does replace itself.
Probably just my newbie way of card evaluation though
Hi guys, I recently tested the Eldrazi Stompy matchup: preboard games seems orrible (all countermagic is bad: both FoW and Daze suck hard, Pierce is even worse), while postboard games are better (just slightly favorable for us IMHO, on the back of Hymn/Goyf/Lilly) but I'm looking for some trump card to put in the sideboard for this matchup: some ideas?
Anyway, I guess Hymn build are far better than Stifle builds against Eldrazi.
And Team America is the best Delver deck against them.
Took down weekly, with my list (17 people):
UW delver, mentor, myth realized, mother of runes 2:0
g1 bad luck draws for him
g2 early Dread of Night was too much
Elves 2:0
g1 key creatures killed, and lucky daze on Natural Order
g2 early engineered plague keeps green men at bay
UG 12post 2:0
g1 hymn was the key, 3x wasteland kept the game in my favor
g2 he mulliganed and was land screwed along with my 2x wasteland helps a lot
Junk depths (?) 2:1
g1 got overruned, mothers rendered my decay into a crap
g2 TNN did its job
g3 he was land screwed, his mothers were killed by dread of night
Deck is insane, although dodged miracles (at least 3 in the room).
Played a small local weekly yesterday. 3-1.
Beat Miracles, Reanimator, Crazy durdle brew w/ Humility & Ensnaring Bridge.
Lost to Elves.
In R1 of top 4 playoff lost to Food Chain (too many misplays by me).
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Dark Confidant
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
2 x Disfigure
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Bayou
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland
Sideboard
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Submerge
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
2 x Painful Truths
1 x Dread of Night
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Sylvan Library
Bob was great all day. So was Painful Truths out of the board.
I'll have to strongly consider playing Painful Truths in place of Bob main. That would allow me to play 2x Dismember main instead of 2x Disfigure. Dismember answers Tombstalker, Angler, random Eldrazi, Misthollow Griffin, etc.
Delver was easily the worst creature in the deck and I had trouble flipping him at times. But it's a necessary evil.
quick write up from SCGLOU Legacy classic
Bug Delver 8th place
creatures
4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 true-name nemisis
Instants
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 spell pierce
1 dismember
Sorceries
4 Ponder
3 Hymn to tourach
2 thoughseize
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the veil
Lands
2 Tropical Islands
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
Finally got to play a large event post-dtt reign of terror. beloved hymns and lillys got to come back!
rd 1 Eldrazi 2-0 W
glad to face this rd 1 as i had built my list with this m/u in mind. after playing against it, i wasn't that impressed. kind of felt like a worse mud deck. basically tarmogoyf is just better than anything they have. in 2g i took 2 hits from a smasher while i waiting to get up to 3 mana to kill his trinisphere with decay. then i untapped and played 2 5/6 goyfs and that was pretty much it.
rd 2 Bug Delver mirror 2-0 W
similar list to mine with the hymns, but he was missing some key SB cards like lilly and library. these mirrors usually come down to who has more exp with the deck and this time it was me.
rd U/R Delver 1-2 L
Opponent also top 8'd the event. played a very aggressive delver deck featuring stormchaser mage and swiftspear. games 1 and 2 were tight with the person on the play winning each opponent started on the play). g3 i thought i was about to stablize with goyf and decay for storm chase while i was at 13ish life, but i hit with a price of progress for 8 because i needed to play out a fourth land to play goyf and decay. he showed me a second price anyway and w/o counter spells in my hand i would have died either way.
rd 4 Death and Taxes 2-0 W
this is supposed to be a bad m/u for us but i haven't ever lost to it in a sanctioned event. game 1 i just decayed all his stuff and hit mirran crusade with a hymn to tourach. g2 he leads plains vial and respond with bayou pithing needle on vial. he plays a second vial t2 and basically plays nothing of consequence as his hand is destoryed by discard spells. 2nd to last turn of the game i thoughtseize to see vial #3 and cataclysm in his hand. so chalk one up for pithing needle
rd 5 Storm 2-1 W
game 1 kept a decent hand against pretty much any non storm deck and get summarily destroyed. g2 i mull to 5 opponent keeps sketchy 7. my 5 turns out to be great with multiple counters and DRS. g3 opening 7 has the nuts: delver, ponder, daze, fow, fluster, Usea, spell pierce, . first 3 draws are something like Hymn, Daze, and FOW. topped it off with a null rod later in the game while holding 2 FOW and 2 Daze. opponent has LED and petal in his hand.
rd 6 Living Wish-Lands-green sun-Loam hybrid
Opponent presents giant looking deck, I say "tripled sleeved?" he responds with "77 card deck" I'm like :eek: wtf is this dude playing. 3 very interesting drawn out games that i can't really remember. the highlight: g3 spell pierced a living wish while opponent had 3 mana up. this prevented him from getting depths and making a marit leige with thespians stage. he had to get a melira instead to block and i was able to clean up the game. one of the sweetest decks i've seen in a long time though. unfortunately he missed top 16, so i don't have the full list.
rd 7 Burn ID
looked like the top 3 tables could draw in so i offered to it to Ali Antrazi. he thought about it for a minute as he know what i was on, but decided to take the draw.
Quarters Miracles 0-2
lost to Joe Losset playing miracles. made a million mistakes and was just throughly outplayed even though game 2 lasted almost an hour. I was bummed to end the event playing so poorly, but props to Joe for taking it down.
top 5 punts:
1. attempted to FOW a monastery mentor cast off cavern of souls vs Joe. ended up costing me the game b/c i couldn't counter the Jace he landed a few turns later
2. cast a tarmogoyf onto a board of Joe's v clique vs my true-name. broke the cardinal rule of the m/u by playing more than 1 threat and justice is swift and terrible as he blind flips a terminus. i thought i needed to play another creature to win race, but i had 4 draw steps and 2 cantrips in hand to find the removal spell.
3. rd 1 vs eldrazi, opponent has chalice on 1 and 2. i draw decay, cast it on the chalice on 2 for some unknown reason when my game plan was base on casting the 5 1 cc spells i was holding. won b/c my goyfs were able to hold the ground until i drew a decay for the chalice on 1
4. missed a tabernacle trigger vs the 77 card deck while opponent was 2 swings from dying to my goyf. luckily i drew a goyf the next turn and he didn't have anything going on. not listing this first b/c i feel like he was kind of hiding his tabernacle behind his giant ass deck.
5. allowed myself to be jedi mind tricked by Joe. after resolving a goyf he immediately says "'done?"' and respond with "yea" then realize that i didn't activate my lilly that would have allowed me to ult lilly before he ulted jace. i think i still lose b/c he just keeps the jace and sac's everything else and i would have had to hit pithing needle in my last draw, but still terrible.
so yeah lots of rust to shake off, and the deck obviously performed better than i did. it was great to get back out there again; it's been awhile since i have gotten to play a large(ish) event b/c of my 7 month old. Gotta shape up for GP Columbus!
Nice writeup. Congrats on the T8!
I went to a store last night for the first time that does Legacy events pretty regularly as practice for SCG Philly. Instead of their usual weekly event, they were doing $20 entry with the prize being a Volcanic Island. I usually don't like doing tournaments that are so top heavy because you end up with one person being really happy and a bunch of other people with feel bads after a several hour event, but I wanted to get practice in so here we are. 14 people, so 4 rounds and cut to T4.
Here's my list:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Dark Confidant
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Dismember
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
1x Disfigure
1x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
2x Golgari Charm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Winter Orb
I used to play the Stifle build of TA, but with the rise of Eldrazi I jumped over to the heavy black version. In a perfect world, I'd have -1 Trop and +1 Sea, but I only own the 3.
R1 vs. Death and Taxes
G1: On the draw, opp mulls to 6. I take some beats and then kill everything he casts and hymn his entire hand away and stabilize at 3. My board is eventually 1 Liliana and 2 Tarmogoyfs against his board of Vial on 3 and nothing else. I hymn away his last 2 cards and he vials in a Flickerwisp to exile my Liliana and flies over for exact next turn.
SB: +1 Disfigure, +1 Dread of Night, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, -4 Daze, -1 Liliana, -1 Force of Will
G2: I mull to 6. My opponent gets an early start with Thalia into 2 Flickerwisps. My board is eventually Delver and Tarmogoyf and eventually flip a Golgari Charm. I abrupt decay his Thalia in order to cast the Golgari Charm and wrath his board. He eventually casts a Sword of Fire and Ice and finds a Spirit of the Labyrinth to equip it, but goyf holds down the ground while Delver does his thing.
SB: -3 Force, -1 Pierce, +4 Daze
G3: Opp mulls to 6. My opponent drops a SFM on turn 2 and fetches Jitte. I have decay in hand and think about waiting for him to drop the jitte, but I take the riskier play of Hymn to Tourach and manage to get his Jitte and a Mirran Crusader(!). This pretty much decided the game, since I would have auto lost to a Crusader wearing any equipment. I play another Hymn to strip the rest of his hand and start Goyf beats. He plays a mother and a hardcast batterskull, but I have pithing needle on mom. Eventually goyfs get there.
1-0
R2 vs 4c Loam - Only person I know in the store. He's a friend of a friend that I met at SCG NJ.
G1: My notes here simply say "Wasteland", so I'm assuming I attacked his mana and he couldn't cast anything lol.
SB: +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Winter Orb, I can't remember what I took out here since I forgot to write it down, but probably Dismember, Liliana and Dazes - I made a pretty huge mistake here and assumed he was on lands.
G2: My opening hand is 5 spells including a brainstorm, a null rod, a wasteland and 1 fetchland. My opponent leads on wasteland into GSZ for 0 and fetches dryad arbor. I fetch for Sea and cast a brainstorm and see no lands on the top. My opponent plays Mox Diamond and a land, casts Knight of the Reliquary and wastes my Underground Sea. I'm unable to find any colored mana.
SB: -1 Winter Orb, -1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Dismember, -4 Daze, +4 Force
G3: I play land cantrip. My opponent plays land and Mox Diamond. I play land and Null Rod. My opponent stumbles since he was hinging on the Diamond's colored mana and after the game he shows me the 2 other Diamonds in his hand. Null Rod is a hell of a card.
2-0
R3 vs. Eldrazi - This is the deck I wanted to get reps in against. My gameplan is to wasteland/hymn aggressively and find a Goyf asap.
G1: I'm on the draw. My opponent mulls to 6. He has a T1 Mimic, but I waste his Sol Land on my T1. He follows up with a 1-mana land, and I eventually Hymn him out and find a Goyf.
SB: +1 Liliana, +1 Disfigure, +1 Loam, -3 Daze
G2: Not a whole lot of notes on this one. I remember eventually having a Goyf vs. his 2 Matter Reshapers. He attacks his Reshapers into my Goyf. I block one and he flips Dismember off the top. He kills my Goyf and then Wastes my one green source. I'm unable to find another one with 2 more goyfs in hand and he kills me with the other Reshaper.
G3: I have a T1 Delver. He plays a Revoker naming Deathrite, which I fortunately never drew, and plays Chalice on 1, which fortunately my hand is Abrupt Decays and Goyfs. My Delver and Goyfs eventually gets there.
R4 vs. UB Tezz - I figured I could draw into T4, but I get paired down and he wants to play.
G1: I'm on the draw. My opponent casts T1 Dimir Charm off of Ancient Tomb. I play a goyf. He plays a thopter foundry and sword of the meek. I abrupt decay the foundry. He plays another foundry. I force of will. Goyf is a 5/6 and he's eventually exactly at 5. He topdecks an Academy Ruins and is able to get his Foundry back online and makes 5 Thopters. I find another Decay for the Foundry. He gets pretty aggresive and attacks with everything except 1 thopter. I abrupt decay it and my goyf puts him to 1. Eventually I find a deathrite shaman.
SB: -4 Daze, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Golgari Charm
G2: I choke his mana with wastelands and I have 2 early Goyfs that are quickly hitting for 4 each and I get him to 8. He eventually Toxic Deluges for 5, putting himself to 3. We're both topdecking. He plays a Trinisphere and next turn plays a Tezzeret, sacrificing his City of Traitors so he's stuck on swamp and island. He tries to cast Dimir Charm, but I point at his Trinisphere. He uses Tezz to find a Seat of the Synod and casts it. I wasteland his Seat and eventually play a Goyf and a Null Rod. He tries to cast Baleful Strix with Island Swamp and I again point at his Trinisphere. He can only tick Tezz down to make his Dimir Charm into a 5/5. I Decay it and swing for lethal.
4-0
At this point, it's really late and I'm hoping for some kind of split, but the TO says the store owner wants us to play it out because he wants the volcanic out of his case. OK then. I go in as the sole undefeated, so I have top seed. My notes here are really bad since I'm getting tired and want to leave lol.
Semis vs. 4c Loam - same opponent as R2
G1: I must have locked him out of the game because all I wrote was "counters" and my life total only drops from fetches. I remember he cast a loam on exactly 2 lands, which I daze and then he played a land right after aka the walk of shame.
G2: This one was a grind, but he eventually comes out on top. I remember there was an interesting situation where we were both topdecking and I loam to get back 2 lands with 4 lands on board and 2 Force of Wills in hand. We're both topdecking with no boards. I figure with 5 lands I'll be able to pay the alternate cost of tapping 5 lands for both Force of Wills and I can win once I find a piece of action. Unfortunately, he plays a Scavenging Ooze which I have to Force and he follows it up with a gigantic Knight that kills me.
G3: This game was miserable. I play T1 DRS. He wastelands me and plays Mox Diamond. I abrupt decay his Diamond on T2. I eventually find a second DRS and a Liliana, and just pick apart his graveyard while +1'ing Lili to feed the Shamans and -2'ing any creature he plays. I was never able to find another creature, so I kill him from 20 with DRS activations in a game where he has no real way to get back from in a really long and grindy game.
5-0
Finals vs. Eldrazi - Different opponent from R3
G1: I mull to 6. I waste his first sol land and he's never able to get that explosive start to kill me before I start dropping goyfs.
G2: I mull to 5. I put up the good fight by dazing his T2 thought-knot seer and forcing his T3 Reality Smasher, but I can't get goyf bigger than a 4/5 and his endbringer wins it for him.
G3: On the play and I see Goyf and wasteland in my opener. I brainstorm and see 2 more wastelands. That's really all it took.
6-0, +1 Volcanic Island.
All in all, I like how the hymn version of BUG is positioned if Eldrazi becomes a major thing.
Nice job on winning the tournament! That Volc can go toward your next USea! It seems like the eldrazi deck just gets shut down pretty hard if we waste their Sol lands.
Hi guys,
Just placed 2nd in BOM Madrid with the same 75 i played in seattle. Higly reccomend you check it out. The list is a brutal killing machine and i feel favoured in most matchups
Here is his list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
What I want to know is how did you beat not one but two Lands decks in the top8? Lands is so unfavorable from my testing!
Feels like the community is split on using bob. Can anyone throw out some knowledge on why using TNN is more beneficial than bob? On a side note, Do you use Sower to punish greedy DD plays? That seems like the most ideal play with it.
From what I have seen in coverage (both vs lands matches are in), Shamans, Submerge and even Liliana made lands.dec plus good play from Goddik, I have seen only 1or2 questionable play in coverage - but no bad play at all, also his lands opponents made couple of mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
From my experience, lands are not that unfavorable, it is by no means anything good or easy, but it is beatable, at least with my list.
@Goddik congratulations to 2nd place!
I believe you must hate the Delvers, imo the reason is that you have "few" spells, that flips them. It was almost ridiculous to watch those 1/1s attacking, fun part is, that it even did not matter.
Hi guys
A few notes beneath relative to your comments.
1) On Sower - Sower is a very narrow card for shardless bug, which seems to infest the american meta. Since Shardless seemed prevelant down here in the trial, and i thought sower would also be good against the eldrazi deck (theorycrafting), i ran it back. The alternative cards for the slots are a pair of envelops which help with miracles and combo. I would never board this against a lands deck as it seems like a pure pipe dream to hit 4 mana, and have them not play around liliana.
2) On the lands matchup - I used to assume this matchup was horrible, and i am still not super happy about facing it. I am now 3-3 against it in tournaments, with 5 of the matches going to 3 games (making the matchup a high percentage of my match losses). The thing is the "new" combo lands is alot easier to fight then old-school lands. They have fewer mazes, and often spend their energy messing around with the dark depths combo, rather then the combo that actually scares me - Tabernacle + waste lock. Games are won by being super agressive and luck-saccing the right answers at the right time. t1 exploration must be forced, otherwise you risk wastelock, which is worse then marit lage. Be very carefull with what you waste. Sometimes waste needs to hit a green source, sometimes it needs to hit a combo piece, sometimes it needs to hit maze.
In addition, i have seen many of my lands opponents (not my semifinal opponent) make my job much easier by boarding out gambles to bring in random anti hate (e.g. decays). This makes it harder for them to assemble waste-lock tabernacle and makes the matchup significantly easier to win, as they begin to play like a slow combo deck
As a side note my semi-finals opponent was playing turbo depths, a much easier matchup then lands (no waste-lock).
3) On the creature choices:
Dark confidant is inferior to vendillion clique. Dark confidant is only really good against combo and miracles. Against combo we already have very positive matchups and dont need him. Against miracles he is plowed alot. Clique however is an alstar. The game often ends up in board states where we have 2 creatures and the miracle player needs to terminus or he is dead. V. Clique wins the game on the spot in those. It is also one of our only ways to interact with Jace TMS
True-Name nemesis is a plan in himself against midrange matchups, particularly death and taxes, jund and 4 c loam. 4 c Loam is already incredibly favoured, so we do not need his help there. The other two matchups are getting quite rare. He also tempts us to ruin our sideboard because he plays poorly with our sweepers
Tombstalker is a creature that can win alot of matchups by himself. In the deathrite mirrors you basically win by out tempoing your opponent. Tombstalker can break this symmetry by racing like a boss and being practically impossible to kill. In effect he is the better nemesis there. It is very needed for the shardless matchup
In general, in any fair non-miracles matchup we want to play like a glorified merfolk deck. So having many creatures is awesome.
4) On the shardless matchup
This matchup is very often misunderstood on both sides. I rarely see shardless players keep in their forces, and they are surprised when i fow their deathrite, play my own and beat them down while they look at their useless hymns. The matchup is NOT a grindfest, it is a tempo matchup dominated by deathrite blowouts. I therefore keep in fow's otd, and some number otp if i have space, and i think it is almost always incorrect for the shardless players to drop their forces.
And yeah, i am terrible with delver flips. I also very rarely prioritize it with brainstorms, ponders or sideboarding. I strongly dislike having to play delver, but i guess we cant have 8 deathrites in our deck....
Maybe GSZ? Gives the early acceleration of DRS while being DRS later on. Also doubles up as extra goyfs in more midrangey gribdfests. Plus Miracles hates Dryad Arbor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
So did the Delvers do anything decend at all? Why not ditch them and play midrange?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik