[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Echelon

As for what PtE replaces - it usually replaces Fatal Push. You're not telling me that Fatal Push > PtE.

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I don't run Fatal Push, I use Diabolic Edict for that slot. The point of Path is that it can kill big creatures from combo decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell. Fatal Push doesn't do that. Still, Path is better than Edict, but you're not going to run white for just 2-3 Path's. What else are you running white for?

Rhino? It's a good card, but it's coming in at the expense of other 4 drops. And, Rhino builds haven't been performing well lately.
Sigarda? Less necessary now that we have Nissa.

I'm not saying don't run white (I just posted a white list afterall), only that it changes your strategy if you do. GB has a lot of powerful and synergistic cards on its own. It's a lot more complex than just saying, it's strictly better to always run a third color.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Tracker coming out is just not going to be happening just because I'm in white, thanks very much.

Strix does not take up a 'proactive creature' slot. It's a removal / stabilization effect that trades up in cards.

Just for reference, what green/black list are you looking at cuts from here?

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Then what is going out? You can't be adding white creatures without removing some existing ones, if not from an existing deck, then from a pool of cards under consideration.

The problem with Strix isn't Baleful Strix itself, it's that there's no other good blue cards, especially creatures to run alongside it. Most of blues power in the format comes from Cantrips and FoW and neither are cards this deck is interested in. That only leaves a couple other random cards like Jace, which requires a bigger blue splash and still actively makes GSZ worse by including it. Leovold is helping to close the gap, but it's still not enough.

Skeptical to see mention of loss/gains when adding blue and not having Jace come up. We've spent years including some number of sideboard slots just to fight against an opposing Jace, heck I'm still seeing some slots pop up to fill that duty (at least partially - To the Slaughter). Slamming an early Jace is an incredibly powerful aspect of bug fit.

Edit: Jace just mentioned, nevermind. Feel like I'm the only one that values him highly for some reason.

Back to other discussions though - can't wait for the walker changes to take effect. I'm curious to finally try out Nissa, Steward of Elements once there is no contention between her and her older sister. She makes quite a pair with Jace TMS - brainstorm and put a creature from hand to top of deck, then 0 Nissa to put it in both for free and without being countered. Otherwise she is constant card selection when backed up by Strixes and a late-game threat. I'm not -quite- sure if she's cheap enough or powerful enough but I want to do some testing at least.

Nyx is still feeling a tad inconsistent, so my knee-jerk reaction is to jam bug fit again and have consistency up to my eyeballs.

Something like:

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

1 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

side:
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fairie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter

Thought about going to 2 Brainstorm and cutting the Decay, but it's still a nice out to non-creature permanents when you don't have a deed handy. Think of the single Brainstorm as a squirt of oil for this machine. Could similarly be a 4th GSZ, except that it's additional help in finding sideboard cards for games 2/3. Unsure about Lily LH here...if only she killed Deathrites - didn't want Lily Veil since I'm most likely not wanting to pitch cards. Removal numbers also might be slightly off - cut a push for another brainstorm? Ah well, you get the idea, it's pretty standard bug imo.

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Originally Posted by square_two

Back to other discussions though - can't wait for the walker changes to take effect. I'm curious to finally try out Nissa, Steward of Elements once there is no contention between her and her older sister. She makes quite a pair with Jace TMS - brainstorm and put a creature from hand to top of deck, then 0 Nissa to put it in both for free and without being countered. Otherwise she is constant card selection when backed up by Strixes and a late-game threat. I'm not -quite- sure if she's cheap enough or powerful enough but I want to do some testing at least.

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I want to try the same thing, like you said it curves perfectly into Jace as either a 3-4, 4-4, or 4-5 curve. I haven't figured out how I want to build the deck beyond that though.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Then what is going out? You can't be adding white creatures without removing some existing ones, if not from an existing deck, then from a pool of cards under consideration.

The problem with Strix isn't Baleful Strix itself, it's that there's no other good blue cards, especially creatures to run alongside it. Most of blues power in the format comes from Cantrips and FoW and neither are cards this deck is interested in. That only leaves a couple other random cards like Jace, which requires a bigger blue splash and still actively makes GSZ worse by including it. Leovold is helping to close the gap, but it's still not enough.

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The most recent blue list I wrote runs 14 blue sources, for a total of 3 Strix, 2 Leovold, 2 Clique, 2 JTMS. I don't think that is unreasonable. Not sure why you think JTMS makes Zenith worse.

Frankly for what cards to cut from white, I don't know what GB stuff you are filling those slots with so I am not sure what is getting 'cut'.

The most recent white list I made runs this creature list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

I suppose straight green/black cuts Sigarda and Pridemage for Titania and Reclamation Sage, then drops SFM for something? I do think these changes are relatively minor, but the Edict -> STP change is really not a minor one in the slightest. One mana is better than two, exile effects are useful, being able to deal with shit like Mentor and YP and KOTR is also very very useful.

JTMS is the best use of 4 mana, especially in a deck that also plays a bunch of creatures to pressure. I like square two's bug list: playset shamans plus gsz means you can win the shaman-war which can win on it's own. Maybe 3 strix is enough? In a deck with a bunch of mana i prefer decay over push, maybe a 2/2 split?

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Frankly for what cards to cut from white, I don't know what GB stuff you are filling those slots with so I am not sure what is getting 'cut'.

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I'm talking less a specific list and more in generalities. If you want my GB list it's
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I don't remember my sideboard at the moment. And I go back and forth on Titania or another land (probably a third Swamp) as the 61st card. The list has plenty of interaction, and hits hard.

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I suppose straight green/black cuts Sigarda and Pridemage for Titania and Reclamation Sage, then drops SFM for something? I do think these changes are relatively minor, but the Edict -> STP change is really not a minor one in the slightest. One mana is better than two, exile effects are useful, being able to deal with shit like Mentor and YP and KOTR is also very very useful.

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Path is better, but to include it you give up manabase utility. GB can afford 5 utility lands without really stretching itself, a 3 color deck can really only fit in 3, 2 if you do the typical 20 or 21 land count.

Notably, I credit two cards to making GB work, and I already know you disagree with both but they are the reason my deck functions. Dark Confidant and Crop Rotation. Crop Rotation in particular does so much for your matchups against the field that it's absurd. It gives you a fighting chance against combo, it lets you get on the board quicker than your opponent, it can get you a critical turn against D&T. There's just a lot of things the card does well. And Bob is just part of the CA glue that holds everything together. Bob/Tracker make for an excellent CA package.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Rhino? It's a good card, but it's coming in at the expense of other 4 drops. And, Rhino builds haven't been performing well lately.
Sigarda? Less necessary now that we have Nissa.

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What 4-drops? That's BG's biggest problem area. :laugh:

As for Sigarda/Nissa - sure, but good luck GSZ'ing for Nissa. You'll have a much easier time finding Sigarda than you do finding your lone copy of Nissa. Especially since a lot of people tend to skip on library manipulation.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that opportunity cost is an important thing. I'm just looking at this from the BGW perspective rather than the BG perspective.

If anyone wants to even possibly play Nyx Fit at any point, I recommend picking up your Academy Rectors ASAP. The supply of the card is slowly drying up and it looks like it's poised for one of the reserved list spikes that's been happening to a lot of older cards recently. Would rather everyone here who might play the deck is aware and grabs them than speculators who are trying to cash in on the next Transmute Artifact.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

What 4-drops? That's BG's biggest problem area. :laugh:

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There's several good options for 4 drops:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Ripjaw Raptor

That's 6 options right there, 5 of which you can GSZ for..

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Originally Posted by Brael

There's several good options for 4 drops:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Ripjaw Raptor

That's 6 options right there, 5 of which you can GSZ for..

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And the first two are insane right now. They are my 2 big creatures in my BG list, decks like pile can't really handle those two easily, especially in game 1.
Meanwhile rhino gets pushed and walled by strix. You don't really want to play the "kill your strix" game against grindy decks like that one.
Online pile is everywhere right now.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

And the first two are insane right now. They are my 2 big creatures in my BG list, decks like pile can't really handle those two easily, especially in game 1.
Meanwhile rhino gets pushed and walled by strix. You don't really want to play the "kill your strix" game against grindy decks like that one.
Online pile is everywhere right now.

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I prefer a mix of CA and hitting hard. So I like Colossus a lot, my other slot has been Meren but I think it's going to be the Raptor once Ixalan comes out. The bigger body is nice, but the more conditional CA might be a problem. A definite weakness of the raptor is that if it gets Fatal Pushed you get nothing.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I prefer a mix of CA and hitting hard. So I like Colossus a lot, my other slot has been Meren but I think it's going to be the Raptor once Ixalan comes out. The bigger body is nice, but the more conditional CA might be a problem. A definite weakness of the raptor is that if it gets Fatal Pushed you get nothing.

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Raptor isn't worth for similar reasons rhino isn't worth. And it's conditional.
I abandoned meren long ago and never looked back: this is Drs.format, a singleton 4 mana legend that most of the times gets stalled by their llanowar elf is not consistent enough to be considered viable in my opinion.

Thrun is nearly unbeatable for pile, especially in g1, and he is nice against miracles.

6 mana dino is the best at what it does in the matchups where I would want to have him(probably even better than sigarda in that regard, they both die only to terminus), but at 6 mana I consider him a sideboard trump card to beat miracles.

My 2c

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Raptor isn't worth for similar reasons rhino isn't worth. And it's conditional.
I abandoned meren long ago and never looked back: this is Drs.format, a singleton 4 mana legend that most of the times gets stalled by their llanowar elf is not consistent enough to be considered viable in my opinion.

Thrun is nearly unbeatable for pile, especially in g1, and he is nice against miracles.

6 mana dino is the best at what it does in the matchups where I would want to have him(probably even better than sigarda in that regard, they both die only to terminus), but at 6 mana I consider him a sideboard trump card to beat miracles.

My 2c

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I'm recalcitrant to relegate Meren because she's just such a hilariously broken card when she's online, but it's probably correct to do so, realistically. At the same time, I've actually been eying Recurring Nightmare again as my lists have become inherently more hateful towards Deathrite Shaman -- if the bastard dies on sight virtually every time he hits play, then should we really be so respectful of him?

Strix is a quiet overperformer in the metagame, and being able to cleanly get through them is underappreciated. Colossus is best at this, but Master of the Wild Hunt and Thrun are "ok" as well. Just remember to watch out for their edicts; it's the only clean way they have to get rid of Colossus.

Of note: Carnage is very weak to Strix, as is Sigarda. This is enough of a drawback for Sigarda that I haven't even been running her in a white build. I'm not sure if Carnage having trample is sufficient of a push to justify the slot.

I don't think that Ripjaw is good enough unless you're going deep on some kind of Pestilence bullshittery (which I don't think is good enough, either, but who really knows).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I'm recalcitrant to relegate Meren because she's just such a hilariously broken card when she's online, but it's probably correct to do so, realistically. At the same time, I've actually been eying Recurring Nightmare again as my lists have become inherently more hateful towards Deathrite Shaman -- if the bastard dies on sight virtually every time he hits play, then should we really be so respectful of him?

Strix is a quiet overperformer in the metagame, and being able to cleanly get through them is underappreciated. Colossus is best at this, but Master of the Wild Hunt and Thrun are "ok" as well. Just remember to watch out for their edicts; it's the only clean way they have to get rid of Colossus.

Of note: Carnage is very weak to Strix, as is Sigarda. This is enough of a drawback for Sigarda that I haven't even been running her in a white build. I'm not sure if Carnage having trample is sufficient of a push to justify the slot.

I don't think that Ripjaw is good enough unless you're going deep on some kind of Pestilence bullshittery (which I don't think is good enough, either, but who really knows).

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That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

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I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

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I like how Renegade Rallier negates Kolaghan's Command (well, if they destroyed Jitte) and alternatively acts as mana ramp. It trades with Strix too, without card disadvantage. But I'm still a bit skeptical about its role in Nic Fit, just wanted to add it.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I would say the Stoneforge plan was a solid one - having a 2-drop that both threatens the enemy and generates card advantage is a wonderful thing - but the prevalence of Kolaghan's Command right now makes that plan a whole lot worse.

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Yes, that's exactly the reason why. Hell, batterskull cost 17 tix some days ago, and I remember it being a 36+ tix card. Kommand is probably one of the reasons the SFM hype died out pretty quickly after the top ban.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

That's the reason I said I want the Dino against miracles and not pile! For this very reason I consider him a sideboard card.
At 6 mana it is not the finisher I want against delver to be honest..

I agree with you on the rest. I my gb list I play a white splash for sb cards and initially I played Sigarda: the conclusion was that the card was not worth it because there is too much pile and strixes online. If I want that type of card to have something to beat miracles, the dino seems even better with trample and higher power.

In this moment I see exactly zero reasons to play white to be honest.
E: unless you are into cheesing people with overwhelming splendor. Man that feeling is amazing.

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The reason to be in white atm is sideboard cards, honestly. Even in my white splashed delirium list, the only maindeck white cards are a pair of StP to diversify my removal, Qasali (which is technically replaceable with RecSage), Sun Titan (because Titan/Deed is the most broken thing you can do in that deck), and Palace Jailer, which it's not even clear he's better than Custodi Lich.

The real draw is what the sideboard offers, which includes Canonist, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate, and Teeg. Blessed Alliance is an upgrade over Diabolic Edict, and Lingering Souls is strong at the moment. Zealous Persecution is at least on par with Golgari Charm, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

The reason to be in white atm is sideboard cards, honestly. Even in my white splashed delirium list, the only maindeck white cards are a pair of StP to diversify my removal, Qasali (which is technically replaceable with RecSage), Sun Titan (because Titan/Deed is the most broken thing you can do in that deck), and Palace Jailer, which it's not even clear he's better than Custodi Lich.

The real draw is what the sideboard offers, which includes Canonist, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate, and Teeg. Blessed Alliance is an upgrade over Diabolic Edict, and Lingering Souls is strong at the moment. Zealous Persecution is at least on par with Golgari Charm, IMO.

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If a list built around Ramunap Excavator ever gets working, Knight of the Reliquary would probably be involved, also.

The blue list I'm playing right now runs blue for two Clique, two Leovold, three Strix, one Elder Deep-Fiend, two Jaces and two Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard. I think it's pretty similar - the green black core is solid, but supplementing some holes (combo hate mainly) with another colour helps a lot.