[Deck] 43 Lands

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Originally Posted by Phelix

strongly urge you to not cut forest.

if your looking for alternate win, consider play the good old wurm harvest.

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Yes, the forest is going to stay. What I would consider is to cut a tropical for a Ghost Quarter, it's always been in the back of my mind but I have never had the time/opportunity to test it.

I play the ghost quarter in all the builds, as part of the spine of the deck, it gives you a bunch of new avenues, and I find it essential.

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Originally Posted by Raystar

Yes, the forest is going to stay. What I would consider is to cut a tropical for a Ghost Quarter, it's always been in the back of my mind but I have never had the time/opportunity to test it.

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I wish I could fit in a fourth trop in some games.

Here is my list that went 5-0-4

1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Maze of Ith
3 Intuition
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Manabond
4 Exploration
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void

I went 2-1 on Friday's grinder where I had a pyroclasm instead of EE and ostone was in the side instead of Kgrip #3. When i regrouped that evening I moved ostone to main for another Kgrip and EE in the side instead of pyroclasm. Pyroclasm is great against SFM, DRS.dec, D&T, and Elves but EE overlaps against TNN and having red mana is not as reliable for the other mu. Kgrip is a must for miracles, S&T, and nonbasic land hate.

Since starting Lands 3 months ago, this weekend was the first time I used md Raven's crime and Urborg (where I had stage and Barbarian ring). 1 DD was soley in the sb to cirvumvent gy hate for g2/g3 once I had a better idea of what nonessential cards could be swapped.

After this weekend, however, my gerry T. token will continue to collect dust. Marit Lage didn't help with the prison strategy at all and crime was bonkers all day. Even with no Urborg in play the manabase still has the potential to rip up the hand. I felt like I had Liliana in the deck whenver I dredged into crime and even Intuition increased in versatility and power.

I disagree with lists cutting Thicket because they don't run manabond, but then are still running crime. The thicket saved my Loam from DRS against bug and I never lost my Loam to a draw step clique. Thicket + Loam can also do extra work with raven's crime. I was told that Loam is the green Ancestral Recall, but now I can put this CA to use with a green Mindtwist. It's the best feeling seeing AD thrown into the bin then sticking a fastbond. Thicket also allows you to stock up on lands in hand to have future loams resolve and critical P.fires resolve that may be targetting a jace or DRS. Additionally, there are no worries about a potential swords for tarpit beats. All of this equates to games you are going to win by CA anyway and that got me thinking that the Marit Lage pieces are just chaff. Having Marit Lage in my deck on Saturday would have actually lost me games because I would have lost control of the game state. Granted, I am not the premier Lands pilot, but crime's versatility gets the nod here.

4 Chalice/3 Trinisphere combined with the manabase disruption handily prompted my ANT opponent into concession both games. They definitely accomplish a lock over a Thalia or another less impressive taxing effect or hate bear.

This deck was a blast to play even if my opponents didn't get it. Go Lands go!

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Originally Posted by Raystar

Yeah, you are right, I didn't comment enough on the build.

EE instead of Punishing Fire: we play PF because of Shaman, sure it helps in other match-ups but shaman is the main reason that forced the inclusion of PF. My reasoning has been as it follows:

- You play PF on the second turn if possible (on average). The same happens with EE, you play it at 1 on the first turn and then clear the board in your second turn. So, basically, EE is about half a turn slower than PF but solves the same issue.
- 4 EE are needed because you want to see it in your opening hand against shaman (the same as PF)
- EE works around the issue that PF had when trying to kill a shaman if it got countered and then removed by shaman...EE can't be removed. In addiction you may loose one against a Ooze but you'll be able to dig for another sooner or later.
- It forces blue in the mana base to make sure that you have U available for Academy Ruins activations. I used 3 Tropical and only 1 Savannah to make sure that, if needed, I could use swan song and activate Ruins in the same turn. In addition your W silver bullets in the sideboard are "fire and forget" while you really want your U sources to stay on the board.
- Playing the GRB "combo" version I felt frustrated by decks that would try to control the board (artefact based decks, Miracles, etc.), if they stick a piece of hate (chalice, needle, RiP...) you may probably have to go to G2 :)
- EE plays very well the G2 synergy with Confidant, you can just use them once and they may clear the piece of board that you need cleared before combing out.

Entomb instead of Gamble:

- I hate the variance of Gamble.
- Entomb enables crazy plays with loam and is totally synergetic with the combo and the engine. In my opinion it gives the deck the little bit of consistency that it was missing.
- G2 Entomb goes out pretty much all the time and get basically replaced by Confidant for the reasons that we all know

Intuition and Tolaria West:

- I started playing Lands a looooong time ago :) Until some months ago I wouldn't leave home without 3 Intuition and 3 Tolaria West...guess what? they are less consistent than 4 Crop Rotations and 3 Entombs in the combo build. Sure, Tolaria can't be countered but it is so slow in comparison with crop and entomb that the "combo" version is a lot better without. The same applies to Intuition, too slow and too easily captured by the U heavy meta we face
- very often you go for their throat even when you would loose in the medium term with the board state you have: you crop/entomb into the missing piece of the combo and gg. Tolaria and intuition require setup and some form of control of the game state that you can't afford anymore with the speed of the current decks.

Swan Song:

- Yesterday it was the first time I took SS to a tournament, they allowed my G3 win against Tin Fins and they are probably the best help that the deck can get against Sneak and Show

Basically, I believe that the combo route is the one to go for and this is the best combo enabling build that I could put together that would maintain the strong controlling aspects of Lands.

Does this clear some of your doubts? I'm looking for help on the build to nit pick my choices, so, please, feel free to shoot at it and I'll be very happy to discuss :)

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Very helpful, thank you.

As much as I like PF+GOTB, this makes me reconsider it very seriously.

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Originally Posted by snorlaxcom

I wish I could fit in a fourth trop in some games.

Here is my list that went 5-0-4

1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Maze of Ith
3 Intuition
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Manabond
4 Exploration
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void

I went 2-1 on Friday's grinder where I had a pyroclasm instead of EE and ostone was in the side instead of Kgrip #3. When i regrouped that evening I moved ostone to main for another Kgrip and EE in the side instead of pyroclasm. Pyroclasm is great against SFM, DRS.dec, D&T, and Elves but EE overlaps against TNN and having red mana is not as reliable for the other mu. Kgrip is a must for miracles, S&T, and nonbasic land hate.

Since starting Lands 3 months ago, this weekend was the first time I used md Raven's crime and Urborg (where I had stage and Barbarian ring). 1 DD was soley in the sb to cirvumvent gy hate for g2/g3 once I had a better idea of what nonessential cards could be swapped.

After this weekend, however, my gerry T. token will continue to collect dust. Marit Lage didn't help with the prison strategy at all and crime was bonkers all day. Even with no Urborg in play the manabase still has the potential to rip up the hand. I felt like I had Liliana in the deck whenver I dredged into crime and even Intuition increased in versatility and power.

I disagree with lists cutting Thicket because they don't run manabond, but then are still running crime. The thicket saved my Loam from DRS against bug and I never lost my Loam to a draw step clique. Thicket + Loam can also do extra work with raven's crime. I was told that Loam is the green Ancestral Recall, but now I can put this CA to use with a green Mindtwist. It's the best feeling seeing AD thrown into the bin then sticking a fastbond. Thicket also allows you to stock up on lands in hand to have future loams resolve and critical P.fires resolve that may be targetting a jace or DRS. Additionally, there are no worries about a potential swords for tarpit beats. All of this equates to games you are going to win by CA anyway and that got me thinking that the Marit Lage pieces are just chaff. Having Marit Lage in my deck on Saturday would have actually lost me games because I would have lost control of the game state. Granted, I am not the premier Lands pilot, but crime's versatility gets the nod here.

4 Chalice/3 Trinisphere combined with the manabase disruption handily prompted my ANT opponent into concession both games. They definitely accomplish a lock over a Thalia or another less impressive taxing effect or hate bear.

This deck was a blast to play even if my opponents didn't get it. Go Lands go!

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It was great meeting ya. That damn draw bracket will get you every time. At least you did good in the first gp with the deck.

6 lands that come into play tapped, combined w. 5 that dont produce mana at all, seems like alot?

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Originally Posted by Phelix

6 lands that come into play tapped, combined w. 5 that dont produce mana at all, seems like alot?

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I seldom had hands where this was a problem. The deck curves out perfectly and is augmented with 4 Mox. The format now is not fast enough that you are dead by T3 because of the presence of so many midrange strategies. The tapped lands are not as much of a liability. Fastbonds are usually cast on turn T2/3 on the draw anyway. Opposing wastelands are usually saved for an impending utility land rather than disrupting the actual manabase.

Taking all of these reasons into consideration the utility lands are not the conventional "land", but need to be thought of as the deck's version of an uncounterable spell that uses the 1 land drop rule. Urborg is the icing on the manabase cake that allows for faster Ostone activations and Port lock down.

Question: some users have previously ran Geist of Saint Traft in this build. Do you think it would be worth it to cut them/ replace it with Extirpate or Surgical Extraction as well as Snapcaster Mage in the Sideboard? You don't need to keep the Mage around (dies to Tabernacle) but in essence that's 8 Surgical Extractions or Extirpates, and could help destroy a tough game 2 match up. (Keep Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in this proposed deck idea.)

How exactly would Surgical Extraction help our rough matchups?

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Originally Posted by Alicanto

Question: some users have previously ran Geist of Saint Traft in this build. Do you think it would be worth it to cut them/ replace it with Extirpate or Surgical Extraction as well as Snapcaster Mage in the Sideboard? You don't need to keep the Mage around (dies to Tabernacle) but in essence that's 8 Surgical Extractions or Extirpates, and could help destroy a tough game 2 match up. (Keep Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in this proposed deck idea.)

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I don't understand your question/scenario.

I would never run geist with this manabase and much less replace those sb slots with yardhate. So you want 4 extirpate/surgical with 4 snapcaster? What is this accomplishing? That much mana is already enough for Intuition, which you are hopefully siding out for the rough matchups (miracles) and more mana than a chalice at one. This makes you have interaction after turn 2 or just dead if you mean storm combo.

Keep thinking outside the box because that's how innovations arise, but don't mess with something that already works.

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Originally Posted by snorlaxcom

I don't understand your question/scenario.

I would not ever run geist with this manabase and much less replace those sb slots with yardhate? So you want 4 extirpate/ surgical with 4 snapcaster? What is this accomplishing? That much mana is already enough for Intuition which you are hopefully siding out for the rough matchups(miracles) and more mana than a chalice at one. This makes you have interaction past turn 2 or just dead if you mean storm combo.

Keep thinking outside the box because that's how innovations arise, but dont mess with somerhing that already works.

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Well the OP talks about Extirpate as good graveyard hate. In my meta, people will counter (FoW/ Daze) or force me to discard something (Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.) I was thinking to get rid of whatever they use, then Surgical Extraction or Extirpate would be good. I know it's not so bad if you have something discarded, but it will still help you to get rid of their cards, be it counterspells or discard, or whatever.

currently playing silly version w. top/counterbalance. its better than id have thought. and the three terminus in the board are quite good vs reanimator and true name.

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Originally Posted by Phelix

currently playing silly version w. top/counterbalance. its better than id have thought. and the three terminus in the board are quite good vs reanimator and true name.

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Sounds fun. Mind sharing the decklist? (Here or via PM)

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Originally Posted by Phelix

currently playing silly version w. top/counterbalance. its better than id have thought. and the three terminus in the board are quite good vs reanimator and true name.

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This has piqued my interest… please do share =]

will post decklist real soon - just got a Collection for 12K in, gotta sort that first.

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Originally Posted by Alicanto

Well the OP talks about Extirpate as good graveyard hate. In my meta, people will counter (FoW/ Daze) or force me to discard something (Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.) I was thinking to get rid of whatever they use, then Surgical Extraction or Extirpate would be good. I know it's not so bad if you have something discarded, but it will still help you to get rid of their cards, be it counterspells or discard, or whatever.

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You should play to have the Loams Forced if you suspect they have it, then have a fastbond resolve right after. Daze should not be hitting anything relevant if you play correctly. On the play you can slam down the accelerants, but be conservative on the draw if your opponent represents a daze or two. Some RUG pilots are using a couple pierces so keep that in mind.

Even though the primer is dated, yes extirpate is ok gy hate, but what mu is it for? Just Loam? OK, but for anything else you would be cutting sb slots of cards that actually help our problem mu. If gy hate is absolutely necessary I would opt for Bog and crypt as they can be tutored for and are reusable. The deck is resilient to counters and discard. If they happen to keep in discard spells or permission that's even better for Lands(save for counterbalance). In this case Chalice at one stops Top and kgrip/AD/EE stops a resolved CB soft lock. I don't know why you would want to Extirpate irrelevant cards and it looks pretty silly to have extirpate in hand and a chalice set at one. Derp.

Between, bob, kgrip/AD, and 6-8 combo prison pieces there are maybe 1 or 2 slots to change.

What is your sb?

And how Dark Depths did for you up to now? Has anybody considered packing it just in side as "sourprise". Most opponents side out the critter removal and we come with little mary as a faster win.

What can you tell?

GC.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

And how Dark Depths did for you up to now? Has anybody considered packing it just in side as "sourprise". Most opponents side out the critter removal and we come with little mary as a faster win.

What can you tell?

GC.

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I win g1 so many times that having a 20/20 is just win more and at that point I need to be playing not to lose with such little time left on the clock.

The slots for stage and depths are not worth it in my experience as they have a consistency issue in g1's prison strategy and they also meddle with the precious and so few available sb slots. My DD was in the sb when I use to run it in an attempt to dodge yard hate, but my experienced opponents (D&T) assumed I had it anyway and kept in relevant removal for bobs too. My unexperienced opponents may still keep in creature removal because they have so few cards to side in vs Lands. The latter case has happened to me multiple times because they still hope to remove the tarpits and now bob if we go to g3. With proper control you should be able to beat these pilots without Lage's help.

Cute for FNM or small local event, but I don't believe in it for a gp.

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Originally Posted by snorlaxcom

You should play to have the Loams Forced if you suspect they have it, then have a fastbond resolve right after. Daze should not be hitting anything relevant if you play correctly. On the play you can slam down the accelerants, but be conservative on the draw if your opponent represents a daze or two. Some RUG pilots are using a couple pierces so keep that in mind.

Even though the primer is dated, yes extirpate is ok gy hate, but what mu is it for? Just Loam? OK, but for anything else you would be cutting sb slots of cards that actually help our problem mu. If gy hate is absolutely necessary I would opt for Bog and crypt as they can be tutored for and are reusable. The deck is resilient to counters and discard. If they happen to keep in discard spells or permission that's even better for Lands(save for counterbalance). In this case Chalice at one stops Top and kgrip/AD/EE stops a resolved CB soft lock. I don't why you would want to Extirpate irrelevant cards and it looks pretty silly to have extirpate in hand and a chalice set at one. Derp.

Between, bob, kgrip/AD, and 6-8 combo prison pieces there are maybe 1 or 2 slots to change.

What is your sb?

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My sb was a little janky haha. I had these:

3 Banefire (instead of Punishing Fire)
2 Propaganda
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Smokestack
1 Relic of Progenitus (completely mind blanked on Bojuka Bog! Great, now need to add this to my deck.
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Emrakul (not bad, actually)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere

actually my decklist was the following and I still like it, just need to tweak it a little.

60 cards Main deck

Artifact: 9
3 Howling Mine
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Spells: 16
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
1 Propaganda
4 Life from the Loam
3 Enlightened Tutor

Land: 35

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian Stage
1 Volcanic Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island

Karakas could be changed and/ or Island could be changed. I want to try out Raven's Crime. I like the Howling Mines in it.

Edit: Originally tried out Oreia's list, and much as I love Geist of Saint Traft, he just wasn't working for me.

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Originally Posted by Alicanto

My sb was a little janky haha. I had these:

3 Banefire (instead of Punishing Fire)
2 Propaganda
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Smokestack
1 Relic of Progenitus (completely mind blanked on Bojuka Bog! Great, now need to add this to my deck.
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Emrakul (not bad, actually)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere

actually my decklist was the following and I still like it, just need to tweak it a little.
........

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How do you win game one if you resolve a bridge? Deck the opponent? I have Punishing Fire main because he handles DRS quite well, answers planeswalkers
(scarey for this deck), and serves as a wincon.

Don't know what meta you have, but look out for LED based decks and I doubt you can win against miracles.