Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Khamul
Small Question: How did you feel with 3 Relic as your only Grave Hate? I always feel like less than 4 pieces of GY Hate is suicide against Reanimator or Dredge.
Otherwise, I completely agree with having Playsets for consistency. I would still like one Sword of Light and Shadow in my MB, though.
I feel it is too little for Dredge. But I also feel 4 is too little for Dredge. I have sacrificed that matchup (more or less), and am okay with it, as it is not that existant in my Meta. In Ghent, I had a Tormod's Crypt as well, and I guess that makes it a little better (didn't face it though). I like the Relics anyway, and with the right draw (of course, involving a Relic, but also Thalia and a Wasteland, there is an opportunity to win, although I agree it is not significant enough to call it a good matchup. Probably the weakest for the deck, I'd say, unless we count Charbelcher, then THAT is the weakest :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
-The Swords cost me, in total, about 4 to play and equip (SFM). 5 is the worst case scenario. And they almost always get attached to a creature who has been around since last turn. Batterskull has summoning sickness, and costs 7 (at its cheapest) if you want to reap the benefits immediately. With the extra mana I have from using the swords, I can port lands, keep a Karakas open to Mangara-lock or save Thalia, use wastelands, or play additional spells/creatures. Batterskull seems (or, at least was to me) an entire-turn commitment. Sometimes it was turn 3, others it was turn 6+. Regardless, given how much we use our lands for non-mana purposes, Batterskull is always a commitment--which crumples to spell pierce much harder than any other equipment.
The +2/+2 gets around most burn, as well as -X/-1 effects that are really the bane of this deck, and can give us the P/T edge we need against op posing creatures. Their protection hinders removal (or forces two-for-ones), as well as allowing us to block creatures we should never be able to block profitably (L/S-equipped revoker blocks KotR all day), and the colorless removal of SoFI has helped me gun down opposing Moms many times.
I took some liberty in quoting you, just to reply to your main point (I agree with you and Finn, this is far from a settled matter, although my quarrel is more with ADDING Swords rather than taking out Jitte/Skull :wink: I feel like your comment about the cost makes Batterskull equivalent to a Swords. Cost 4 total with SFM, 5 is worst case scenario, and then the 'haste'-aspect. A lot of the times, when you find Batterskull, it is as much for blocking duty, and there the lifelink works as pseudohaste in my opinion. Of course a sword is better against just an Insectile Aberration, but what about against that and a Mongoose? Or 2 Mongoose? I see the extra mana as vital just as you do, and I'll admit that that is really important, so definetely something in Swords favor. I never realized the thing about colorless removal against Mom. That actually seems really relevant, and I that is what has convinced my to at least TRY the Fire/Ice in the main over 4th Mangara, however little I like to skip on consistency. At least I will find out in game how often it gets searched up over Jitte, and then I'll report back!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timmycolossus
Question for you tom... With your version of D&T what is your MU against U/W miracles? How much success did you find with gut shot and ethersworn canonist together against elves? Last question... What did you face in your rounds and what did you have difficulty with in the MU's you lost.
I think the matchup against Miracles is fine, but nothing spectacular (like most matchups!). We have a lot of different game plans that they have to deal with, and a lot of great answers for their trumps. Karakas can save a swarm strategy from a timely Terminus, Mangara offers about the same lategame quality as Jace (although we have to start hitting lands to prevent Entreat). Vial beats counterbalance, and we have a good shot of locking out white mana with both waste and port (unless they get all their basic plains, but then Counterbalance is usually out of the question). It is definitely a grindy matchup, but our deck is not opposed to that. Only played against it once, though, and it went according to plan, but would have to play more against it to get a feel.
Gut Shot, I feel, really shifts the matchup in our favor. We have so many ways of disrupting them (Swords and Gut Shots are like duresses in this matchup), and all this while the clock ticks down for either SFM--> Jitte or Mangara lock. I would love to face Elves all day (+ the matchup is really interesting too!)
My matchups at the Grand Prix (after 2 byes)
R3: UW Delver with SFM – Snag was a problem since Batterskull didn’t trump so easily. I had a superior lategame though (and Manriki-Gusari from the SB), so as long as I got to that, we could eventually get there. Unfortunately, I realized too late that game 1 was slipping from my fingers somehow, so I should have concede earlier. We ended up in 3 games, and I had full control with equipment and board against his 0 cards in hand. Unfortunately that was on turn 1 of extra turns, and since I couldn’t get him to concede, I conceded to avoid going in the draw-bracket. It was kind of a snap decision, since I hadn’t really thought about how this deck fairs against ‘decks-that-end-up-in-the-draw-bracket’, whatever those kinds of decks are. Lost.
R4: A match against Goblins. A pretty even matchup, since we both have the ability to do ‘semi-broken’ things if left unchecked. Batterskull took one game and Ringleaders took another. I managed to get him with Ports and a revoker on Vial, and mysteriously he played a Sulfuric Vortex when I had just tutored up a Jitte. Won.
R5: UR Delver. Felt in control the whole time. Batterskull made short work of his deck in game 1. Game 2 I had full control but he miracled a Thunderous Wrath twice, and burned me for the last 10. Game 3 Revoker dealt with Lavamancer and then we just threw down a bunch of fliers. Won
R6: Esperblade. Beat him in 2. Mana denial worked, Manriki-Gusari worked and not much more to it. Won.
R7: Elves. He comboed me out with relative ease game 1. Game 2 Jitte ate all his creatures and game 3 he had a Natural Order for Progenitus too early for me to do anything about it. I really like the Elves Matchup, actually, since we have so many different ways to attack it, but if they pack Natural Order, it definitely turns from favorable to unfavorable in my opinion. Lost.
R8: Elves. He didn’t have Natural Order, and I beat him in 3 games (lost the first). Jitte shone once again, as did Mother+Canonist, for which he had no outs, except play 1/1’s every turn… Won.
R9: Painter Servant: He got a Blood Moon out really early, and my lands were weak to that, but I had Vial. He got down 2 Painter Servant’s, so I was in trouble. I managed to Vial a Mother in before he destroyed it with Pyroblast. I drew another (making my whole hand live again, since all I had were Karakas, Eiganjo Castle (what are the chances!) and waste/port with a hand filled with Serras and Flickers (at one point all 4 of them!). Unfortunately he had a Goblin Welder, so he could keep my vials down by exchanging them in the graveyard, keeping them off counters. I had 2 revokers (go colorless mana!) set to Grindstone, but I refused to block and give PRO:BLUE when he attacked with the Painter’s Servant, fearful of a Pyroblast in response (I was unsure whether he knew that his painters were no longer colorless), so I had to go all the way down to 1 life before I found my second Plains, to unlock Flickerwisp, which removed Blood Moon to unluck more creatures and eventually take over the game. Game 2 was standard and I protected a revoker, had StP backup and Mangara finished it up. Won
Day 1: 7-2
R10: Affinity: He ran out of gas pretty quickly both games (he boarded in Thoughtseize, wtf?), and my bigger guys took over alongside equipment. Revoker was key, but bad draws on his part too. I still like the matchup though. Won.
R11: RUG Delver. Outresourced both games, not very close. Won.
R12: Some Bant Variant with Knight of the Reliquary and Jace. The first game was really interesting. I took an early lead, but he managed to pseudo stabilize with a Jace, which I had to attack with Thalia with help of Flickerwisp, as his board was pretty non-existent. It stayed on one counter though, digging him out of hist troubles, while I sat with a Thalia staring at his Knight and 2 more Thalias in hand! I drew a Wasteland for my turn (he had 8 lands at that point), and thought about just conceding. But I said to myself that this was a GP and stick to it, even if it’s miserable (he was only at 5 life, so there was a shred of hope). 4 turns later I had drawn 3 Flickerwisps (the PERFECT card) and a Serra Avenger, and managed to get his Jace, race his knight with a trick Aether Vial and beat for exactly lethal while going to 1 myself (he had at that point 2 knights out). Very close game, but glad I didn’t concede! Game 2 he was a bit stuck on lands thanks to Thalia, Waste and Port, but he had gotten out 2 Revokers (which, in some way, are both good and bad against our deck, since it has so many targets, but so many other targets to move around them (and Flickerwisp helps too!). I had Jitte with Serra Avenger and SFM, but he made Explosives for 2, taking out everything. At this point, he had spent too many resources, and my second wave did him in. Won.
R13: Merfolk. Beat him with Mangara lock in game one (think I managed to remove 8 lords before he conceded, his draw was insane!). Game 2 I had an opener with both batterskull and SFM, so my SFM on turn 2 could of course only get Jitte. I spent a great deal of time hem-ing and haw-ing, pulling out Jitte and a random Flickerwisp, before finally settling on Jitte. The turn after he attacked with his 3/2 Silvergil Adept, and I got to make a cool play by surprising him with Batterskull (not its usual order of business!). Won.
R14: RUG Delver. Game 1 and 2 we split (I hate the turn 2 blindflip, seems like the only way to win against the deck). Game 3 was super super tight, as we had a staredown with no cards in hand, Flickerwisp vs. Nimle Mongoos (thresholded). 13 life to 14 life. I drew a Fiend Hunter, and did some math, figuring I could get 2 swings in with it, which along with Flickerwisp would put me on 1 life the turn I would kill him, of course hoping nothing else happened (4 drawsteps each). He drew 2 Tarmogoyf, but I drew 2 creatures as well, and so we did him in with 1 life to spare, chumping along the way! Won
R15: Elves, featured on the coverage website. He comboed easily game 1. Game 2 I kept a one-lander with 2 Vials and disruption, and we didn’t see any lands for a long time both of us. As you can imagine, that favoured the guy with 2 Aether Vials, even though I managed to get all uncastables in my hand (StP, both equipments, Mother of Runes number 2). I had a great turn where he played Glimpse of Nature and I got to respond with Vial for Canonist. G3 I mulled to 5 and lost the turn before I could get Jitte online.
R16: Rug Delver. Thalia did great work both games, and it wasn’t close. Won
Final record 13-3.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Thank you for the report and opinion. Because of your top we now have some things to consider when constructing the deck and sb options with the deck as well. I will testing 4 canonist and 2 gut shot against elves, then 3x gut shot then 4x gut shot. What did you side out against elves and side in btw?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
One more thing. Did you have any trouble with sulfur elemental or dread of night? Finn was thinking of putting honor the pure into the board to combat those cards (massacre, zealous persecution etc)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So if I'm adding Batterskull in place of a Sword, he then becomes my fattie. Taking out Grunt is then a more palatable option as we still have a beater and are only missing out on g1 yardhate. Taking out Grunt allows me to add the fourth Mystic, which I'd like to do anyway since casting Batterskull without Mystic is almost impossible.
Let's say I'm going down this path: is relying on Tutorable yardhate enough? To wit, 3 pieces of yardhate (out of Crypt/Relic/Wheel/Cage) along with four Tutors, instead of the previous 4 Tutor, 3 Grunt, 2 Tutor target package. I know it's worse, but as a side effect of taking that hit to yardhate, we gain two very important slots back.
I'm torn on which sword (SoLaS/SoFaI) to take out for Batterskull though. So far it's SoLaS moving out.
To summarize, I'm looking at:
23 Land
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of something and something else
4 of each creature except 3 Mangara, 3 Revoker, 0 Grunt
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic/Cage
2 Oust/Gut Shot
2 Free Slots
Question marks are bolded. For the free slots, I'm considering Honor of the Pure, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Ring, Ensnaring Bridge. I could put the Grunts back in, but I hate to see 4 Tutors with so few targets.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kirbysdl
To summarize, I'm looking at:
23 Land
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of something and something else
4 of each creature except 3 Mangara, 3 Revoker, 0 Grunt
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic/Cage
2 Oust/Gut Shot
2 Free Slots
Question marks are bolded. For the free slots, I'm considering Honor of the Pure, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Ring, Ensnaring Bridge. I could put the Grunts back in, but I hate to see 4 Tutors with so few targets.
SoFI would be my choice if I had to run Bskull. colorless removal + pro jace is very relevant, and the draw is merely a nice touch. Probably our best method of speeding up our game.
I'd cut either a cage or a canonist from your side for 3 grunts (including your flex spots). You want grunt. He has a huge ass to deal with burn, and gobbles up Tarmogoyfs. I won against RUG today because of Grunt alone.
So long as decks play goyf, I'll play Grunt somewhere in my 75. He's too good to simply toss away.
Oust and Shot are preference. I've had games when having the opposite one would have been better, but Shot is more or less "free." Maybe some good removal will come out in RTR?
Also, honestly, why is ethersworn up to a 3-of in our SB? Just for the Elves and Storm matches? Neither seems popular enough to be that huge a concern.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Just to throw it out there, I'm running Burrenton Forge-Tender as a 3-of in my board (Primarily for the Dredge matchup, but also helps against the Goblins and rando-Burn matchups) and I really like it... much more than Crypt. For reference, this is my preferred SB currently:
3x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Faerie Macabre
3x Gut Shot
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Sword of Fire and Ice (running Batterskull main)
1x Manriki Gusari
2x Relic of Progenitus
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Alright, changing my mind again. I was looking at the recent "Too Much Information" on SCG and there are a ton of decks that are yard-dependent at SCG Opens. Since that's the meta I'm targeting, 3 Grunts stay in the maindeck. Here are the 30 creatures we'd want in our ideal deck:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
Generally there's only room for 26 of them in the main. I'm thinking of cutting an Avenger and a Mystic entirely, and moving a Thalia and a Revoker to the side. So many 3s rather than 4s will be less consistent, but I'm betting on the overall utility of Grunt given the expected metagame.
@icecaps: How has Batterskull been treating you? Have you tried SoFaI in the main instead of SoLaS?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
My $0.02, if anyone's interested:
I play a non-D&T white-weenie deck, and I run four pieces of equipment: Batterskull, Jitte, SoBM, and SoWP. But I also play three copies of Restoration Angel, which helps to reset Stoneforge (and Jötun Grunt when I play him).
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So guys quick question. I am deciding on my board was thinking of adding a mortapod or a jitte for the elves match. I already have a jitte in the main. Which do you guys think I should add?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Question: So have we come to a decision on the Batterskull inclusion or not?
I love Sword of Light and Shadow for the flexibility it has but Batterskull delays gobins/merfolk all day, and those matchups aren't auto win like they used to be.
Perhaps move Serra Avenger down to 3 slots and toss in a Batterskull as an additional beater? However, that would lead to 4 equips in my deck (jitte, skull, SOFI and SOLS).
Thoughts?
Edit: By the way Finn, loved the new article. Mangara tricks and timing aside, it was a solid piece which established D and T's role as a control deck quite firmly.
Btw, do you really need 3 canonists vs. elves? While a horrible matchup game 1, an active jitte and/or enlightened tutor into Ethersworn Canonist in the 5 games I played vs. elves this weekend enabled me to win all my sideboarded games.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I want to test this. I don't know how it'll work out but it sounds interesting
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
I want to test this. I don't know how it'll work out but it sounds interesting
Batterskull is typically the second equip we get. Otherwise the Mystic will be shot out of the sky with all the early removal. Think of Batterskull as a tutorable Serra Avenger.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Batterskull
Its really a nice addition but i don't know how you guys can actually fit a 4th stoneforge and 1 more equip in the main deck as i feel the main deck right now is too tight to remove anything.
Right now im running this build and i don't know , how you guys where able to use the above cards mentioned.
How is bskull testing for you guys ?
My build for reference.
Lands [23]
3 Karaks
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
Spells [11]
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SD [15]
3 Pithing Needle
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Path to Exile
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm going into Denver with your list,
+1 Karakas
-1 Plains (I assume you're using 12)
-1 Thalia
+1 Stoneforge
+1 Grunt
-1 Avenger
+1 Mangara
-1 Jitte
+1 Batterskull
Yup, I'm not running 60. :eek:
It's easier to fit Batterskull if you're boarding out the Grunts (seems to be a popular move these days).
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kirbysdl
I'm going into Denver with your list,
+1 Karakas
-1 Plains (I assume you're using 12)
-1 Thalia
+1 Stoneforge
+1 Grunt
-1 Avenger
+1 Mangara
-1 Jitte
+1 Batterskull
Yup, I'm not running 60. :eek:
It's easier to fit Batterskull if you're boarding out the Grunts (seems to be a popular move these days).
Goodluck! i see..., i feel mangara is kinda slow in a rug or merfs infested meta. Running 3 Jotun main isn't bad aswell.
What's your reason for not running 4 thalia ?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
She's Legendary, and there's no room in the main. 4th copy is in the side, along with 4th Revoker. Besides Mangara and Grunt, we'd love to have four of everything in the main. Tough cuts must be made, and I want to keep maindeck Grunts for now. (Compared to having 3 Grunts in the side, I save a sideboard slot this way if comparing slots taken by creatures.)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kirbysdl
She's Legendary, and there's no room in the main. 4th copy is in the side, along with 4th Revoker. Besides Mangara and Grunt, we'd love to have four of everything in the main. Tough cuts must be made, and I want to keep maindeck Grunts for now. (Compared to having 3 Grunts in the side, I save a sideboard slot this way if comparing slots taken by creatures.)
I guess its a matter of preference.., but i feel most of the time thalia will be killed immediately once she lands. Thus i feel shes should be a 4 off. Since your running bskull its natural that you run 4 stoneforge.
Don't you find running 3 mangara against rug meta somewhat slow ?
