Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.
15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.
And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions. Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?
Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague. They only have 8 threats. If I were to board in, I'd go for EE@1 to kill Mongoose, and StP/Paths against Goyfs. Tempo Thresh's creatures aren't a problem to this deck. The mana denial is. I'm not sure if everyone on the Landstill threat would agree with me, but Path > EPlague against tempo thresh. Now, EPlage>Path against tribal aggro, but I mentioned earlier that Path is good enough since it's more flexible outside the non-tribal matchups and it's also wishable.
Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses. Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE. Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.
I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility. Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased. Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.
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Mystical is just not neccecary. You don't need to tutor for fof unless your dead in the water; tutoring for decree is cool, but ultimately not necessary, vindicate shouldn't be played outside of a utility spell for the next level of land still. It doesn't solve enough to be an adequate answer outside a 2 of, especially post m10.
Actually I don't tutor for FoF if I'm dying. That doesn't save you since you'll be FoFing on your turn, and won't have enough to answer your threats. Let me break down my logic as to why I switched to MTutor after being a long-time fan of ETutor:
Against aggro (assuming you're on the losing end, i.e. not winning and just tutoring stuff to win more):
-ETutor can tutor up EE, which clears a portion of the board, ETutor can tutor up Disk, which takes another turn, ETutor can tutor up Humility, which still doesn't solve the aggro problem
-MTutor can tutor up Vindicate, which clears one threat, MTutor can tutor up Wrath which kills the board, MTutor can tutor Decree which cycles for blockers or drop a bunch of angels.
Note that in such scenarios, EOT MTutor gives a ONE-turn answer to the board, as compared to ETutor. Not to mention that MTutor also has that flexibility to tutor up Wish which tutors up more stuff IF you're really that desperate, but the truth is, your sorcs/instants should be enough to deal with the problem on that turn, unless you're playing against some random janky enchantment deck that Wrath nor Vindicate does anything, for which Etutor can tutor up EE which doesn't blow up the whole board either.
Now assuming you're stabilizing
Then MTutor still does what it does by clearing the board, and ETutor can stall for a few turns. This is where ETutor shines a little where you land Humility if you're not under instant threat. And then play out Standstill/Elspeth to lock the game down. However, in such a case, MTutor can do equivalent deals by clearing the board and giving you more time or dig for a FoF which can give you much advantage for the next few turns
Assuming that you're winning
Then MTutor/ETutor are both not needed. ETutor shines since you can tutor up Standstill to lock the game, while MTutor tutors up for Wish/FoF, still giving you some advantage, or just grab that decree and save yourself some turns.
My reasons for changing the 1ETutor to 1MTutor is because I found Disk + ruins to be too slow. In fact, if you're relying on that synergy, then you're too much in a comfort zone and won't be playing the deck as well. Part of playing the deck is to be humble, and know that although you're in control, you can lose control of the game if you're overconfident. I've loved Speedstill lists but I found it to be too anti-aggro oriented. I conjured my list of a slower speedstill, hybrid with Wishstill and it's been working great. ETutor now loses some target, and I've gained much more targets with MTutor.
Also, moss, I don't know how you play Landstill but there are many times where I intentionally don't counter spells, take extra damage just to force my opponents into over-extending for a quick win and EE/Wrath their board. It's situational and dependent on the hand. When my hands are confident, I'll save the spells for critical uses. E.g. why counter a goyf when you have an StP and can keep mana open for the next threat? Save that counter against other threats (assuming you know the other deck well). Landstill isn't a stupid Type 2 deck where you counter and answer all threats one for one. You need to let some through, and blow them up when they hit the board, and try to reset the board and hand in your favor. At least, that's the beauty I find with this deck: Hitting the 4th land drop.
I would probably add Top back in the list, playing 2 Tops, 3 BS since Top is far too good to not be included. I'm trying out my previous list though. But 2Tops 3 BS would be my more optimized list, as it has been before. For reference again, here's my list that I got 1st/2nd split last weekend:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=2255
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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@Mossivo: Never did I say that the Merfolks matchup was favorable. I mentioned that the matchup against Zoo and Goblins were better. Read my posts before and I said we have a good aggro/tribal matchup EXCEPT Folks.
Look I don't have to tell you that Merfolk is the current Tribe to beat. Zoo, although relivent looses and wins based on it's board position and not it's cards "This is regarding wish builds as wish to pulse ends the game with a clear board."
Goblins is irrelivent right now. The matchups already solid and I can't name a time when I fealt more comfortable with them other then when I played 4c with himility and wish splash. These matchups are solved with Path to exile as you mentioned.
Merfolk is a deck you NEED to be beating or you probobly shouldn't play said model of landstill because your almost gaurenteed to be facing it atleast once at the bottom or top tables, and as it's doing really well I would assume the top ones. Your not going to dodge it as frequently as say ant.
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15-hate cards is enough for any usual aggro deck, if not, I must say that Legacy control is on a fail if we can't deal with aggro with 15 hate-cards, not to mention, Landstill is the deck that destroys aggro decks.
There is no such thing as a "Usual aggro deck." You also know this.
There are simply far too many flavor's to establish an average creature count that your going to run into.
Also removal isn't "hate cards." Path to exile is a generalized removal spell that happens to be fantastic. In that same instance Engineered plague is a tribal removal spell, alittle more finely tuned but it's universally good against a variety of different arch types.
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And please, be on a nicer tone, part of the reason why this thread is a pain for discussion is because you keep thinking you're right, and fail to initiate fruitful discussions.
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Why the "Try again" remark? I've explained it in the past few posts that the merfolk matchup is the least favorable, and here you're saying that I'm claiming I beat it like there's no tomorrow?
I didn't say that. What I meant if you misunderstould is what I said at the top of this post as well. It's the most important. I wouldn't play landstill if I couldn't beat it because it is such a beating without he proper technology. You have to be able to beat either Ant or Merfolk with some consistency. If you can't then it's not worth losing to both because your going to run into them even in small local sized events.
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Against tempo thresh, I'd be amazed if you can hit your land drops as easily to reach plague.
Top does marvelous things.
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Once again, Plague is slow against Ichorid, but it has its uses.
Plague isn't slow against ichorid. You can stall Ichorid consistently enough to prevent them from auto winning. Past that point it's your card selection that will win you said game. Plague just happens to soft lock ichorid when combined with a second one or humility.
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Against Ichorid, the simplier answer is to just go Relic and counter the Needles they land or blow them up at EE.
You can't rely on relic to save you against ichorid. Thats what ichorid preys on. You need to take advantage of the obvious. They Mull themselves... Alot. You need to design your gameplan around winning the whole game instead of thinking "Did I get this, or that." If you think that way then ichorid autowins you based on needle your anser and then win 2 turns later.
Post SB is hard unless you have a dedicated SB. Landstill is tight on SB options, but its really dependent on the meta, and which matchups you really want to win against. Unless there're too many Ichorid players, you need a more dedicated SB, and EPlague is not it. Just EE, Extirpates, Relics would do with countermagic backup.
you can tell me how plague is slow, and how it isn't it; but you can't tell me how it's actually bad. Obviously life would be easier if we could all run 4 ofs of ee pate and relic with infinate force of will backup;however this is not the case. Your argument needs to be tuned around why EP doesn't work, or around a more effective solution for those three slots. Until then your just crying about a matchup you haven't tested enough or you simply just can't beat it with your current landstill model.
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I dropped top because it was eating too much into game time. Trust me. Top >>> everything. It's a great card, but I've been trying for faster builds, and this is my most successful list in terms of speed and versatility.
You dropped top in favor of wish + FOF + Vindicate. This slows you down not time line wise, but interactive-wise. Your slowing your overall deck down.
Let me tell you alittle story:A long long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.
Nevermind with that.
I played landstill in GP Chicago. For referance check out the tourney report. Now I did well but I had alot of draws. Though this wasn't do to top being slow, but card quality being not optimal. It happens alot in landstill. I was using ponder (wasn't necessary in landstill. Simply put the wrong choice.) I was using an incorrect sideboard as well which didn't help things AT all. I should have used path to exile (would have won me multiple games much easier) I also didn't have enough fetches. 4 is simply not enough and 22 lands wasn't correct either. With all of these small issues my model had still managed to get me just inches from day 2.
Also note that it was my first Major "over 200" event with Legacy and the speed of the game was never an issue with opponents or myself. Top was not the problem, my card quality was the problem. So if your finding that Top is dragging you down, then play the deck more. Function with the interactions and write your damn top 3 down or something. I happen to have an excellent memory. I generally can remember three cards when I see them.
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Think of it as a Wish/Speedstill hybrid. Trust me, I've run the Disk + Ruins synergy. It was great, but it really didn't do much except to clear the board and I've replaced Disk with FoF and have not been displeased.
Disk + Ruins is cute; but disk + elspeth is incredible. I beat merfolk preboard last night with that little ditty. Fun times.
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Vindicate solves the non-creature threats that you need.
Wish does everything vindicate can do, but better for 1-2 mana as you've already found out. Theres no reason to use vindicate unless you have a utility slot. I happen to use relic in my 1 of. This could easily be replaced by wish. You simply don't want more then 2 wish in your landstill model unless your wish dependant.
Ill answer the other stuff later. I dont really have the time to talk about it. But to simplfy it.
I wouldn't run either tutor main currently. I really like the flexibility of e tutor in the sideboard.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Glad to see you resolved in favour of the 3 EE + 1 disk argument! (aboslutely rocks...). (And BTW, sorry if I didn't reply to your PM, but the work absorbed me completely, I've got just a few minutes to write this post). Finished 6th a small tournament (23-25 people, didn't count...), but I could have done better. I tried the speedstill approach:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
// Creatures
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [A] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
Round1: DStompy
G1: I kept a slow hand and forced a t1 chalice@1 which I could have let resolve (having force backup and elspeth). He plays a morphed creature and I didn't find one of my 7 swords. I didn't care because I thought it was gathan riders: turn out it was his singleton copy of red akroma...
Side: -1 snare -1 standstill +1 EE +1 KFinks
G2: The deck worked as it must. I let a RPD and a mauler resolve, kill the dragon and kept the board with elspeth. Finks + mishra finished him off while I wiped away his creatures.
G3: notes say he concedes at 16 and me 18. Must have been in a far superior board position.
1-0
Round2: my teammate with burn
I lost g1 due to burn being burn. I opened godhands the other games, and 2 finks + elspeth won me the race.
Side: -2EE -3 vindicate -1 path + 4 sculler +1 jace +1Kfinks
Round4: UGr dreadstill
Not a difficult MU, 7 MD swords help a lot... Top won me the match all day long.
Round5-6: ID
Top8: won the first and mulled hard and seen nothing, my only 2 fetches incurred in stifle. Losing can happen, but not even playing is annoying.
The deck was overall pretty consistent, I mulled only once in the swiss, and hard in the top against my nemesis (when I play with him, I mull no matter what I'm playing; once he beat me with belcher, I mulled to 4-5 every game, seems like he casts a curse on my draws...nevermind...). The only thing I "complain" is that I didn't side so many cards, the deck seems quite balanced as it is. Kitchen finks is a solid card, and most of all totally unexpected. A good body for an attacker, gains us 2-6 life (with a stp), prevents the oppo from attacking quite often, etc. The only complain is that it can't produce soldier tokens in eot! :tongue: I chose to insert 2 counterspell, I prefer having at least 10 counters. (-1 sstill -1 vindicate in regards of kalus' list). instead of 4 relics / 2 jace I preferred adding more versatility with a +1 cruclibe and a +1 EE. Still to test it intensively, but quite in my playstyle.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@mossivo1986
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of tutors. I agree with your assessment on Engineered Plague as well. It stops Ichorid cold and unless they splash white for Vindicate, it's really tough to remove.
I run 3 Krosan Grips from the SB. I can add in one more just to contradict your promise. ^^
And yeah, Goblins are sort of easy prepared for simply by preparing for Zoo.
I personally don't think you would need 3 Sensei's Divining Top AND 3 Brainstorm. I mean, the former sort of eliminates the need for the other beyond 1cc. Also, isn't the amount of card quality over card advantage draw spells that you have a bit unwieldy? Why not 6 of Standstill or Jace Beleran or Fact or Fiction, 5 of Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top? You can cut the odd Relic of Progenitus for that 6th card advantage draw spell. (Can you even dig through your deck fast enough to find it in a pinch?)
@crz87
To be honest, Vindicate can be a tough sell against Merfolk, since it leaves you open to an unfriendly Standstill.
Anyhow, this is my maindeck mix:
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
3 Wrath of God
But the key is to try to get the Humility down. I might even put a third one in the SB.
Anyhow, how is Engineered Plague too slow for Ichorid? It's not as if they kill you on turn three. And why would we be using Engineered Plague against Tempo Threshold? Oo"
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Happy 4th of July UWb Wish Still lovers. And with this great holiday I present my update.
Lands: 23
Code:
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
No major changes except the removal of Tolaria West and the Addition of Polluted delta. This was done for a variety of specified reasons, but the major reason is 22 land with tolaria west is not 23 lands. I've played with Tolaria West long enough with all different kinds of assortments and sometimes its been amazing, sometimes it's been not so amazing. One thing is absolutely for sure. I cannot risk having my t2,t3, or t4 lands comming into play tapped. Simply put it puts me too far behind in games. If I draw a land I better be able to play it and use it. Nuff said.
Draw:10
Code:
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
No changes from the last couple of lists. You know your model is sweetness when your draw package alone wins you 40-60% of your games.
Permission:10
Code:
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [IA] Counterspell
Knowing the current metagame and the ammount of viable decks currently played at the top tables counter spell has proven its worth. I need it to counter cards like intuition, FOF, random stuff as Vendillion is getting weaker and weaker do to the meta-game shifting because of the new rules set ect. It is in this theory that I still want to keep my counter package strong, but also allow for win conditions to randomly appear and win games from out of nowhere. Counter spell is not always good. Vendillion clique is not always an effective flyerl; combined they not only have synergy together but also drag out the permission of opposing aggro control and control models. Also the fourth spell snare got cut in favor of a bit more consistency.
Removal:
Code:
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
No Changes.
Win Con's:
Code:
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
Only changes here are -1 clique. Not anything substancial. The additional permission is going to help me out with resolving and mantaining elspeth.
Utility:4
Code:
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
Code:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
Pretty self explanatory sideboard.
Very similar to mine which is nice to see, although I don't use Crucible (maybe I should? I'm still using the Shackles). I'm still using 4 SS though and am quite surprised you went down to 3. Was it just not versatile enough?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just out of curiosity, why isn't anyone running wing shards in the board as a wish target? I haven't tested it enough to call it definitively "good" or "bad" (it takes forever to test out a wish board slot, as I'm sure you guys know) but it's come in handy a few times. I've used it to get rid of a progenitus through force backup a couple times and even just wishing for it and holding it in your hand can buy you a few turns against aggro-control. Right now I have it in Mossivo's relic slot (and a second humility in place of the crucible, but the other 13 are identical.)
@Mossivo: 61 cards with 23 lands? I always look at my 24th (west) as more of a tutor/utility card than a land drop save for in emergencies. And is disk really worth it as a 1-of*?
*yes, cunning wish=>e.tutor=>disk. but thats hella clunky
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
Just out of curiosity, why isn't anyone running wing shards in the board as a wish target? I haven't tested it enough to call it definitively "good" or "bad" (it takes forever to test out a wish board slot, as I'm sure you guys know) but it's come in handy a few times. I've used it to get rid of a progenitus through force backup a couple times and even just wishing for it and holding it in your hand can buy you a few turns against aggro-control. Right now I have it in Mossivo's relic slot (and a second humility in place of the crucible, but the other 13 are identical.)
@Mossivo: 61 cards with 23 lands? I always look at my 24th (west) as more of a tutor/utility card than a land drop save for in emergencies. And is disk really worth it as a 1-of*?
*yes, cunning wish=>e.tutor=>disk. but thats hella clunky
West is great unless it has to be one of your first few land drops. What are the chances? I don't know, but regardless, it's unideal. I replaced Dust Bowl/Tolaria West with 2x Wasteland in my list...
I do like the idea of Wing Shards, actually, and is one of the cards that I just have laying in a box somewhere. I'm also curious about the Disk.
[Edit] Oh, and I should add.
I've been really, really considering reverting (I think that's the right word given the conditions) from 3x SDT ---> 1x Brainstorm/2x FoF. Something is just not working right for me.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Lol Morbid. i've been doing the same too. Depending on the meta, SDT maybe too slow. But man is it good and made for landstill. I'm currently running:
3 Brainstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF
Might drop a Standstill for the 2nd Jace if Vialdecks are common tomorrow. SDT really shines against Land-D decks, and also decks with moon-effects, and it's good for a longer-mid-range game e.g. against Deadguy/Suicide. It's not too good against fast aggro since you're tight on your mana and need to find answers fast.
SDT + Jace is pretty retarded though. So if you run SDT, you have to find a spot for Jace to make it work even better :)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
Lol Morbid. i've been doing the same too. Depending on the meta, SDT maybe too slow. But man is it good and made for landstill. I'm currently running:
3 Brainstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace
1 FoF
Might drop a Standstill for the 2nd Jace if Vialdecks are common tomorrow. SDT really shines against Land-D decks, and also decks with moon-effects, and it's good for a longer-mid-range game e.g. against Deadguy/Suicide. It's not too good against fast aggro since you're tight on your mana and need to find answers fast.
SDT + Jace is pretty retarded though. So if you run SDT, you have to find a spot for Jace to make it work even better :)
Yeah, I understand. That's one thing I really, really like about SDT when I came back to this game, I knew they were around when I ran UW Landstill circa 2005-ish, but didn't bother to run them. Adding 3 has freed up some of the constraints in this deck.
Gah, basically just means more testing, which I'm not really opposed to.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
The role of west in my version is a tutor or emergency land; it would be a non-land card in mossivo's list. Of course it's the last one in my deck I would choose to draw if I needed mana.
A couple of other points in my thought process that I'm not sure are right:
I look at it as dust bowl#2, ruins #2, factory#4, and mana source #23.5.
Cutting it for another business spell is possible, but I don't think running dust bowl and ruins is worthwhile at that point; they're untutorable one-ofs that work only in certain situations.
Running land#24 lets me feel more comfortable running 2 SDT and 3 brainstorm, upping standstill to 4. That gives me a nice even split between card quality and card advantage, as well as 20 blue cards to pitch to FOW.
Against this train of thought
In testing, I've only played it as a land a few times. Would it be better as a business spell with dust bowl cut for ruins#2? That's what it turns into most of the time.
Mossivo's build gets two more slots than mine. This ends up being quite the advantage, though even if I cut it I'll probably still just run 60 total.
Sorry, just kinda thinking out loud right now. I've been on the fence with this choice for so long because there are a few other slots contingent on its inclusion or exclusion.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Tolaria west is an excellent card. Don't get me wrong if the format were a bit slower i'd probobly re-add it. Unfortunately it cost's six mana to ee for 1 and this is the main selling point for not running it. I'd rather run a more efficient land and preserve my landbase then worry about some random tutor that doubles as half a land drop. Consistency is the key here and really I still see academy ruin's constantly and dust bowl enough to warrant not playing it.
The random relic follows suit as the last two did. The biggest difference between the old list and the new list is that i'm sacrificing some of the extremely efficient meta-planning answers to answer the entire legacy format ie running mid-late game answers like counterspell and disk. Disk isn't the usual cunning wish target fyi. Disk is your random if you don't kill me next turn i'm resetting everything with x ammount of lands and a solid hand in play. So watch out card obviously. Disk shines with EE and elspeth creating gamestates that feel like your cheating.
Disk+Elspeth's Final = disk EVERY turn + Indestructable infinate 1/1 soldiers that make the game end very quickly. Also to note standstill over a disk with elspeth in play reads: Your dying anyways, but if you want to give me the for sure go ahead win please play a spell. Elspeths final also allows humility to become indestrcutable and top so if you randomly use disk nothing on your side gets taken away from you.
It is with all this and that disk has allowed me to regain what was lost in the merfolk matchup pre-board that I tell you that Geoff,Gustha,Rockout are all correct with their assesments. Disk is not only retarded but the next removal of choice. Disk to me feels like when you play ITF and they use Etched oracle with ruin's (Except more unfair as disk has more synergy then just drawing more cards.)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I prefer indestructible Humility over Disk, however, disk has really been shining in the past month of testing. If you feel comfortable running more than one do so, otherwise 1 should be plenty.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
moss, I've played Disk/ETutor + Elspeth before and honestly, it was win-more. The times where I got Disk out alone, I've reset the board and proceeded to win. Times where I got Elspeth out, either she was removed or I won in the end since there's no other decks in Legacy that can really deal with planeswalkers other than Vindicates. And if I did get Elspeth out to 8 counters, it's already a lost game for the opponent. I think from my previous testings (huge fan of disk simply because it's a board setter) that Disk + Elspeth is a little too slow. The justification for running Disk isn't to recur that cute trick because it is an amazing synergy, but the games you actually get to do that, out of all the games you play, are not too frequent. They would have an answer to Disk or Elspeth and before she hits up to 8, they would also have an answer to Disk or Elspeth.
Disk is one of those MD slots that I'm taking in/out depending on my meta. If there's a ton of affinity/Enchantress, Disk goes in! Disk destroyed a game of affinity right before he could swing in for lethal. I doubt that Elspeth + Disk trick could get online against affinity at any point since they're so fast, but Disk itself can get it there. My main point to say is that if you run Disk, run it because it's a good card against the meta, not because it has cute tricks with Elspeth. That's a bonus, but it doesn't come up too often unless your meta is slow, but that means they have time to dig for answers as well, or you should try to win faster.
Here's the list I'm playing today, report will follow soon:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Undeground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divning Top
4 Standstill (or 3 Standstill + 1 Fact or Fiction if there're too many vial decks)
1 Jace Beleren
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God (or 2 Vindicate, 2 Wrath depending on aggro meta: swarm v.s. less-threat density)
1 Humility
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields (maybe 2 if meta is burn/goyf sligh heavy so MTutor grabs one in the MD as well, giving it a potential 4-copy)
2 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Negate
2 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I said the same damn thing. Yet here I am playing it. Check a couple of pages back.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just want to echo that Disk is cool, it's the ultimate fire & forget card
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Wrath Child from Salvation hooked me up with this. Check it out:
Fira Powa
Man do I love winning with Chicks with swords.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Did he explain how to do those banners? IŽd like to have one myself but with some other cards.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
You can get Photoshop 7.0 just about anywhere. It's probably one of the most easily cracked programs out there besides microsoft office.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I came back on Sunday, not making to the Top4 due to getting paired down and losing to Goblins game 1. I should not have lost that MU simply due to all the aggro hate cards not to mention BEBs. What happened was: All 3 games, I drew no removal, and got nothing through digging with Standstills/SDT/Brainstorm. It was frustrating as hell. Game 2 I resolved a critical Humility right before I was going to die and stabilized with Pulse and won. Game 3, I drew zero white sources (he didn't waste any Tundras either). I had 7 lands out with zero white sources after shuffling and Brainstorming, i.e. I drew 2 Factories, 2 Seas, 2 Island, 1 Ruins and my hand had 2 Wrath, 3 StPs waiting to rape his army of goblins.
It was sad losing to goblins. I beat all my other aggro matchups (Zoo, LD, RGB aggro). If you're worried about an aggro-infested meta, Landstill's the deck for you. Landstill is perhaps THE BEST deck against Zoo. It's just so nice that EE kills all but Goyfs and Thoctar and you have Spell Snares for Goyfs, and Vindicate/StP for everything else. SB 2-3 Paths and 2-3 REB and the matchup becomes laughable. Decree was MVP all day, and builds without Crucible in the MD seems better.
Here's an interesting option for people to consider in a Land-destruction heavy meta. My meta last sunday consisted of:
Goblins (Wastes/Ports)
Team America
Deadguy
BG Land-destruction deck
I made the curious decision of SBing 2 Teferi's Response. I've always loved the card and just wanted to play it for the sake of playing it. And it turns out to be simply amazing 3for1 card in a land destruction heavy meta. I would recommend not running it at all, but I wanted to mention for people having trouble stabilizing the manabase against Tempo Thresh/TA, Deadguy/Eva, Teferi's Response is a really nice card to have, and it saves you against much of the tempo loss from their land destruction. It's a card that's so specific that it doesn't make the cut at all in SB, but that's just a card I tested this weekend against a LD heavy meta and it was GOLDEN rofl. People who first saw the card were like: WTF, who plays this? This card is stupid! I got 3 for 1ed :P
