Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

How good have Flusterstorms been in the matchup for you ?

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Flusterstorm isn't the greatest in the mirror, but it can facilitate some very aggressive early plays. For example, a turn 3 Counterbalance with Flusterstorm backup is almost guaranteed to resolve. It quickly loses value in the late game though. I usually bring in Flusterstorm for the mirror, unless I see or know that they have SFM in the SB. If that's the case then I'll leave in a couple Terminus over the Flusterstorms while on the Draw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Versus 12-Post, Extract and Bribery are still cards, right? I mean, if the Emrakul is the only thing you're worried about...

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Extract isn't too compelling since they can always tutor for a different Eldrazi or just land a Prime Time, but Bribery is interesting. Likely it is far too narrow... but it certainly sounds fun and might have some measure of use against SNT.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

For my new list which I will play at the BoM I cut all the Vendilion Cliques from my Mainboard, and the Karakas too. So 3 Snapcaster Mage is the minimum, I'd love to play a 4th if I had the slots to do so. As I will be saying in my new Madness-Article Snapcaster Mage is just too good in every single MU, while Clique is phenomenal in some, and overly awkard in others.

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Any idea when your article on mtg madness will be posted? I'm really curious what the new list is looking like. I've been wanting to run more cantrips in my list for a while but haven't found spots to cut. Never thought about ditching cliques though.

His article will be published 27th/28th April. Stay tuned! Marc Vogt will also release an article on sideboarding with Miracles around the same time. <3 teammates

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

Thank you very much for your answer ! I was starting to be afraid that you were one those writter who write their article, take the money, leave and never answer like so much writters in starcity but you are not ! and thank you for that also.

Now we can talk ! :)

About REB : i understand and respect your philosophy of stability over power but i think i'm still going to take the risk to play 2 REB main deck because it gives me the best chance to win the last rounds and the top 8 imo. Having 2 byes certainly helps me with this decision.

About SFM/Batterskull : Sure it's very good but i really feel like it takes to much slots in the sideboard.

About V. Clique : i guess we won't be able to agree on that one. I'm loving SCM more and more and i'm still fond of the information given by Cliques, the possibilty to put miracles back in the deck and the fact that there is no condition to cast it on Turn 3 (we don't always have one mana card to cast SCM on Turn 3).

"I don't board in my REBs against heavy Wasteland decks when I don't have a Mountain. That's why I've never lost to Wasteland on my Volcanic yet. "

Sure it's a good way not to be blown out by Wasteland ;) but in your article you said you side in some REB in against Deathblade and UWR Patriote which happen to play Wastelands so i guess you have been a little lucky not to have faced this problem ;) . More seriously, the real question is : is it worth having a Mountain or not ? As REB is so good against RUG, Patriote, Deathblade and Esperblade and as i want to be able to cast all 3 or 4 of them, i think the answer is yes ! (it also let you play Wear/Tear over Disenchant).

About RIP and SCM : Against RUG i guess you are right since a resolved RIP a nearly game and then an Ambush Viper is not that bad. What about other decks you side in RIP ? Against Storm, Reanimator and Dredge, it's totally reasonable to keep SCM but against something like Lands, do you still keep SCM ? Are you sure it's a good idea not to side in RiP against Jund ? Punishing Fire is a bit scary and blanking Shaman and Tarmogoyf doesn't hurt.

About Counsterspell/Entreat/Spell Pierce against RUG and Patriote : i understand your reasoning and you are probably right but since "Entreat has to stay in vs RUG cause I need win-cons" , why doesn't it also stay as well against Patriote where you also need win conditions.

About EE against S&T : I don't think many players side in Needle (some of them even play Top MD too) or Defense Grid (sure it's scary, but every good Show and Tell players i spoke with told me that Defense Grid was actually bad). Furthermore, it's pretty risky to rely on EE to destroy the potential Defense Grid. What are you going to do ? Cast EE on 2 on Turn 2 risking to get comboed out on Turn 2 or 3 ? Waiting for Defense Grid to resolve ? Basically, you will need 4 manas to destroy it leaving you without mana for the decisive turn (good player will play Defense the turn before they go off) so unless it's very late game, it won't be anygood either. As much i respect and like Disenchant effect in this matchup, EE really seems bad.

In the mirror : I like your point of view in the matchup. Entreat is definitly not the most important card in the matchup but it can still win you games, especially ones where you are behind and/or locked by CounterTop as Drza said so i would keep one or 2, but def. not 3. Win cons that stick ... what are you refering about ? Keranos ? :o :) . Do you side in your 2 EE and Disenchant ? How good have Flusterstorms been in the matchup for you ?

Thank you again :)

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Don't worry - I am not just taking my money and leave, if not just for the fact that I didn't receive any money for either of the articles there. :eek:

So, on the topic with REBs vs Patriot and Deathblade. I don't consider Deathblade to be a Wasteland-deck. They can play them, but they won't play the full set, and in my experience they won't be having two of them in order to deal with both of the Volcanics. VS Patriot I board 1 or max. 2 REBs, that's just as many red spells as red sources, guaranteeing atleast one castable red spell. Due to their high reliance on blue it's worth the risk to me.
The story about the MB or SB Mountain is tough. I am playing 3 red spells, so for my list it's just not worth it. But if you play 4 REBs and maybe Wear/Tear, Blood Moon and/or Sulfur Elemental it might actually be worth it. But not for me, not now.

On RIP + Snapcaster. Let's put it simple. In all my years of playing this archetype, I have never boarded out Snapcaster Mages. Be it wrong or right, I just never did it.


"About Counsterspell/Entreat/Spell Pierce against RUG and Patriote : i understand your reasoning and you are probably right but since "Entreat has to stay in vs RUG cause I need win-cons" , why doesn't it also stay as well against Patriote where you also need win conditions."

Jace is a good card against Patriot, while he isn't very powerful against RUG. That's why I am having 2 Entreat 1 Jace vs RUG and 2 Jace 1 Entreat vs UWR - that's 3 win-cons each and 2 of the better ones for each MU, with one of the basically inferior ones, but still useful ones.

You don't have to agree with me on the EE-plan vs Sneak, that's fine :)

"In the mirror : I like your point of view in the matchup. Entreat is definitly not the most important card in the matchup but it can still win you games, especially ones where you are behind and/or locked by CounterTop as Drza said so i would keep one or 2, but def. not 3. Win cons that stick ... what are you refering about ? Keranos ? :o :) . Do you side in your 2 EE and Disenchant ? How good have Flusterstorms been in the matchup for you ?"

Win-Cons that stick are stuff like Elspeth, Keranos, Gideon, I don't play either of them - but they've been played, or will be played or are playable - whatever.

Yep, I board in all the EEs and Disenchant-effects, had I had more. :O

Flusterstorm is the last card I board in, and it's the weakest one, yet situationally exceptionally good. In my new list I will only board in 1 Flusterstorm.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

His article will be published 27th/28th April. Stay tuned! Marc Vogt will also release an article on sideboarding with Miracles around the same time. <3 teammates

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That's how you do it, right? Mooore Miracle articles!



While I am at it - I have now written 4 articles on Miracles, 3 in english. I guess I will have to start changing my focus when writing about Legacy, simply because I may be repetitive over time. If you have any topic, Miracle-related that you would love me to talk/write about, let me know.

Greetings

Really ? I thought all the websites gave money to their writters. Maybe it's just on the big websites. I know for sure that tcgplayer do it for example.

I like your arguments about REB/mountain and Jace/Entreat against RUG and Patriot.

I saw only 2 articles you wrote on eternalcentral, where is your 3rd article ? I would like to read it.

Thanks !

The third one I was talking about is the MTG Madness article which should be online right before the BoM - if they do their part according to schedule. I sent it already.

So, I guess I'll see you at the BoM...

Greetings

EDIT: Inbox is cleared, for those of you trying to reach me via PM!

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Jace is a good card against Patriot, while he isn't very powerful against RUG. That's why I am having 2 Entreat 1 Jace vs RUG and 2 Jace 1 Entreat vs UWR - that's 3 win-cons each and 2 of the better ones for each MU, with one of the basically inferior ones, but still useful ones.

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Why do you like Jace over Entreat against Patriot as opposed to RUG? While Jace isn't a house in either MU, in my experience, he's easier to protect against RUG. They both have 4 Bolts, 2-3 REBs, and some number of Shroud-guys. The main difference I think is that you can block Goose fairly easily to protect Jace, but if TNN is coming in then you can't stop it. Maybe I'm biased because I run more Cliques though, which trade with a Goose?

Also, there was a cool game I played last night against Jund that I thought was pretty interesting because I basically had to plan the entire game out from t1. On the play, my hand was Island, Plains, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Entreat, Venser. I play Island and pass. He goes T1 Thoughtseize, so now I have to cash the Brainstorm early. I find FoW, Terminus, and a Jace.

Right now, I decide that Snapcaster is my most important card because it'll allow me to Brainstorm and cast Entreat later on. I put back Terminus then Snapcaster, so that I have the option to shuffle away Terminus if I want to. He predictably takes the Jace in order to strand my Entreat. I draw the Snapcaster, play the fetch, and pass. He plays Hymn, so I FoW pitching Venser; Snapcaster and Entreat are the most important cards now.

I decide that I still want to redraw the Terminus because he's likely to have a creature now after running out all that discard. I play the Plains and pass. He plays Bob and passes, I fetch and Snapcaster -> Brainstorm (He Bolts the Snapcaster in response to the trigger), finding Tundra, Karakas, Top. I put back Entreat then Terminus. On my turn, I draw and cast Terminus, play Tundra, play Top, pass. He plays Sylvan Library, which from my position is actually excellent. I Top EoT, seeing Jace, FoW, and the Entreat, I put Entreat second from the top, draw the FoW, play Karakas and pass.

He draws an extra card, dropping to 14, casts a Goyf then passes. EoT I Entreat for 3, one gets Abrupt Decayed. I draw and recast Top and swing for 8. He untaps, attempts to double Punishing Fire an angel, I draw Jace with Top and FoW, and he scoops. Planning is everything! :)

I was wondering the same question about RUG/Patriot but i didn't want to overload Einherjer with too much questions ^^;

That was a very nice game :) . A more experienced Jund player might have taken Entreat instead of Jace here especially if it was game 2/3 (REBs) ... was it ? Since Entreat is the most important card, are you sure it's correct to put back Terminus instead of Entreat on your first brainstorm. Since you seemed sure that he wouldn't take Entreat that was actually the correct play but... if i knew the opponent was good i would have probably put back Entreat.

Ok, I'll give my best to describe why I prefer Entreat vs RUG and Jace vs UWR.

The first step we take when looking at an MU is how it is going to play out. Will we be on the defensive backfoot all the time or will we have breathing room? As long as RUG doesn't brick on something essential we are forced to be defending every of our moves, leaving us with little to now breathing room, outside of interacting with what he has to offer. UWR on the other hand has a horrible curve for a Tempodeck and doesn't play Stifles, which makes the making of land-drops easier, should they choose to go for that route - or make casting Miracles in general more safe. This means we will have the opportunity to deploy our own win-con without fearing immediate death.
(And yes, I am well aware that I have more Miracles in the MU where I fear Stifles.)

Ok, so we now have two different scenarios, and in our RUG scenario we want our win-con to function as a blocker / as a wrath effect while being a win-con. RUG won't really be able to overcome Angels, maybe with a Tarmogoyf - but we got enough weapons for this in our arsenal. Jace could only bounce 2/3 of their creatures, while blanking totally on the playset of Nimble Mongeese.
In our second scenario our Win-Con doesn't need to be an immediate rescue, and Jace - bounce is way better against Delver/Mystic/Meddling Mage than it is against Delver and Goyf. Patriot also plays less Nemesis than RUG plays Mongeese. Plus, Angels can't really block Nemesis.

Both decks pack REB. It sucks.

From my experience RUG is more likely to keep in Bolts than Patriot, so I'd rather have the Jace in the MU with less Bolts in their postboarded - deck.

I hope I could explain my reasoning - if something is unclear or portrayed in a bad/wrong way - let me know.

Greetings

Einherjer, I'm actually curious--What's your approach to the matchup against 4c lands builds from the miracles side? I've usually not had much trouble at all with the MU from the lands side of things, but I'd like to hear how you deal with it.

4c Lands? You mean the basic 43lands or whatever its called?

Okay, so the threats that your deck can pack are the following:

Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire
Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins
Thespian Stage + Dark Depths
Life from the Loam + Wasteland

Three of those are being neglected by RIP, two by Counterbalance and one by Swords/Terminus. This means we face a MU where all our cards will be eventually useful. I just wanted to point this out for people not being that familiar with the deck. But you didn't ask for a boardingplan but asked for my approach, so here we go.

First of all Miracles has to be aggressive in the Early and Midgame, Spell Pierce every legal target, Counterspell if you can and Force of Will what's left. Holding Counters until the lategame isn't going to get you anywhere, as most of those engines can only be delayed with Countermagic, not stopped. And Lands will find those engines.

So, as soon as we stopped the initial onslaught of cards we don't want to see - Manabond, Exploration, Intuition - what have you - we have to establish a CB lock as soon as possible to counter P.Fires and Loam with a cc2 on top.

If we can't assemble CounterTop our plan should be fast Entreat the Angels, Vendilion Clique attacks and even aggressive Snapcaster Mages, drawing one card via flashbackin Brainstorm/Ponder. This attempt can be very risky, but if we don't have RIP/Balance or Jace we won't win the later game in any way - so better gamble.

Coming to the postboard-games we have RIP. And that's probably it. This card is totally bonkers and you should play accordingly. Make the Landsplayer waste as many ressources as possible before deploying the RIP - as they can always Grip/Decay/EE it - make sure you get as many value out of this card as possible. G2/3 you can play less aggressive, as you should have more disruptive elements, still - if you have the opportunity to make a small/medium Entreat - go for it.

This MU is nothing I like to play against, there are games where Lands completly dominates Miracles, some games where Lands does nothing and then there are those games that I enjoy so much in this MU. Miracles has Jace + Balance but not Top, and Lands has atleast one engine going. Those are the fair games that are very complicated to manoveur correctly, but are great fun to play.

I hope I answered the way you were hoping - if not - ask again :)

Greetings

Thank you for your answer :)

Since you are on such a good run to answer questions : what about the elf matchup ? what is your plan and more importantly your sideboard plan ?

Okay, one more before I go to bed. The Elves MU is something very interesting. For the most part it's almost a Bye - but if people play Julians list and have his plan for the first game it's actually a fair game, one way or another. For those who don't know - any good Elves player will try to THROW EVERYTHING THEY HAVE INTO YOUR FACE and you will actually have to have Terminus as soon as possible!

So, the preboard-MU is generally very easy, but the postboard matches is where it gets tricky. Let's first look at how I boarded at the GP (where I slaughtered Elves 2-0 at the GP and 2-0 and 2-1 in the Trials).

-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 EE
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Disenchant

You have the option of opting for Flusterstorms, but I felt comfortable with this approach. We basically don't board alot, because our MB is very good against their strategy (aggro-combo). We can easily shave one Jace, as he is kind of slow, one could also swap the 2nd Jace for a 3rd Entreat - but having at least 2 cc4 for their NO is nice too. Spell Piere is good against their Discard and potential hate: Needle, Null Rod, Choke - but I prefer Counterspell, which will shine as soon as we escaped the early turns. I could also see some different approaching here.

Postboard Counterbalance isn't all we need, as we will have to fight through 3+ Discard and 3 Abrupt Decay. So Counterbalance has to bee seen as a time-frame in which you can stabilize. Don't make your plans with Counterbalance as the end-of-all-world. I have seen different approaches of the Elves players..

Some prefer to go the Tempo-ey way. Overloading on disruption, and cutting the combo-aspect for the most part. Their plan is to disrupt, and hit with 1-2 dudes. If you see that your opponent tries doing that go for the 3rd Entreat over the Jace for the 3rd game.

The other way is the kind of traditional. They will try to grind you out, and will combo out as soon as they felt they can - which is either because they stopped Top with Needle/Rod or because they feel you have no Terminus. Make sure you always have one in your backhand, and try playing without this last answer on top of your library.

If your hand has two Counterbalances you can go the brutal way - Swords/Force their one-drop and deploy all the Balances as fast as possible. It is a valid approach - but don't just blindly swords/force their t1 drop if you can't follow it up with numerous Counterbalances.

Entreat the Angels is an excellent wrath when they don't team up with the Behemoth. Use this card accordingly, as a removal, that will hit them later.

Try to sandbagg EE as long as possible, as it can also handle threats you did not expect.

But yeah - taking all into consideration -it's an easy MU.

That's enough for today. ^^

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

4c Lands? You mean the basic 43lands or whatever its called?

Okay, so the threats that your deck can pack are the following:

Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire
Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins
Thespian Stage + Dark Depths
Life from the Loam + Wasteland

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I find it very curious that you don't list ghost-quarters as a threat at all. In my experience locally on the east coast of the US, I've found ghost-quarter locking midrange and control opponents off of basics to be the most effective way of actually locking out games, and I find that in general I tend to run about 65% or better against any fair MU. Storm of any variety is another story, but hey, can't win 'em all. Do you just not respect ghost-quarters as a threat, or are you confident in the number of basics you run in general?

Neither, nor. Ghost Quartier is an important threat. I just forgot it. :P

Greetings

So in the tournament I described earlier I played 2 times vs Dredge in the swiss (2-1 and 1-1) and 1 in the semi finals (2-1). Although I won, it's not a matchup I like to face. It's also hard to sideboard. I used the following list:

Maindeck
2# Snapcaster Mage
2# Vendilion Clique

4# Brainstorm
1# Ponder
4# Force of Will
2# Counterspell
1# Spell Pierce
1# Red Elemental Blast
1# Unexpectedly Absent
4# Swords to Plowshares
4# Terminus
2# Entreat the Angels

4# Sensei’s Divining Top
3# Counterbalance
3# Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4# Flooded Strand
4# Scalding Tarn
2# Arid Mesa
2# Plains
4# Island
2# Tundra
2# Volcanic Island
1# Mystic Gate
1# Karakas

Sideboard
1# Engineered Explosives
1# Pithing Needle
1# Ethersworn Canonist
1# Grafdigger’s Cage
1# Rest in Peace
1# Humility
1# Blood Moon
1# Enlightened Tutor
1# Wear//Tear
1# Pyroblast
1# Red Elemental Blast
2# Flusterstorm
1# Venser, Shaper Savant
1# Entreat the Angels

I would have never expected it, but Counterbalance was a pretty good card in this matchup! In game 2 and 3 you force them to cast a lot of drawspells, Narco's, Thugs and Imps which CB easely counters.

I will most likely cut the Humility and am unsure about some other cards, but this is what I played. I sided differently in all matches. In the semi finals I sided as follows:

Dredge
+1 Explosives +1 Cage +1 RiP +1 Tutor +1 Pyroblast +2 Flusterstorm (leaving 1 ReB in the sideboard, I already have 1 main)
-2 StP -2 Jace -1 Unexpectedly Absent -1 Entreat -1 Plains

So I still like to play some StP's, especially good against Ichorid. Snapcaster was boarded out in the earlier matches, but I love to trap them in combat and exile some Bridges =)! Both worked for me! Clique is a bad card, but can also block or close out games, should I side it out? With Jace I won a game and another with 2x Unsummon while digging for Terminus and a win. My opponents found it strange that it was still in my deck, but I told them that I sided out the other 2 and still need some wincons. Entreat was an awesome wrath while my opponent thought he would crush me for lethal, and a nice finisher in other matches, but can I find room for 2? How do you do it =)!?

I played a local tournamant last weekend with the following list:

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Luminarch Ascension
2 Red Elemantal Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

SB
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mountain
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
2 Wear//Tear
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Terminus
1 Blood Moon
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Enlightened Tutor

It was a 30 player tournament, with byes for BOM.
I went 3-1-1 and ended 6th after Swiss rounds
2-0 win against junk
2-1 win against Dredge
0-2 loss against TES (kept G1 a hand with removal but too little counters, G2 he had the nuts)
2-0 win against Miracles (list with SFM maindeck)
ID

QF
2-0 win against BRUG Delver

SF
2 players were not going to BOM, so we dropped for the other players to get the byes.
Top 4 was:
miracles
team america
belcher
reanimate

Maybe some explanation on card choices:
3 Entreat the Angels vs 1 Luminarch Ascension
I really wanted to try the Luminarch Ascension, but I forgot to take out 1 of my entreats instead.
I'm not quite satisfied with the LA, but I have to say it won me game 2 in the miracles mirror (exactly why I wanted to try them). I played the card multiple times, but never got it up to 4 counters before I won or my opponents removed it.
It was fun though to see the look on my opponents faces when they saw this card, no one really liked it.

2 Red Elemantal Blast
Meta with a lot of Blue-based decks, so for me this is an auto include MD

1 Unexpectedly Absent
Another card I wanted to try, but UA never gave me what I wanted, it's going out asap.

SB
1 Bonfire of the Damned
Really like this card, and no one expects it either.
I won 2 or 3 games by flashing Clique in eot and then in my draw phase miracle Bonfire + Main phase attack with Clique for lethal.
It saved me 2 or 3 turns attacking and protecting my Clique.


On the other hand, I have been testing against DnT last week, but that MU is horrible. Out of 10 games I played, I couldn't manage to win a single game (all MD)
I have to say my opponent had the T1 Vial almost every time! But even without vial it felt to me like an impossible battle.

Any thoughts on this MU and how to improve it would be greatly appreciated.
Same as on the S&T MU, I really have problems against them as well.

My 'new' decklist for next tournaments:
MD
- 1 luminarch Ascension
- 1 Unexpectedly Absent
+ 2 Spell Pierce

- 1 Entreat the Angels 'or' - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 1 Counterbalance
(not so sure about this yet, I would appreciate your thoughts)

SB
-1 Terminus
-1 ???
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
(any thoughts on this are also very welcome)

Well, not this way :)

First of all: Counterbalance is not good. It may have been useful for you in one or two games. But it's not a good card, in no way. Same goes for Counterspell. Having UU up to counter something isn't gonna happen. So we have 5 easy cuts, cause this cards suck. As you have realised Jace, the Mind Sculptor is bad too, and yeas I have won games with Jace too, but yet again - it's not good. That makes 8 cuts from the MB.

When looking at your sideboard we want for sure:

1 EE
1 RIP
1 E-Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Grafdiggers Cage

and because we cut the Jaces we can easily up the disruption count by adding

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast

As you correctly assumed you want cheap cc1 Counterspells to deal with their early outlets, Pyroblast serves double-duty as it can also exile their bridges. Never cut Swords to Plowshares, and never think about cutting Snapcasters, just dont! :) Entreat the Angels is important too, as it serves as an kind-of-wrath but also as an useful finisher.

The MU tends to be very swingey. Back at GP Strasbourg I met Dredge twice in D2, I beat them both in G1 I believe, then I got nut-killed when they were on the plan and then in G3 I proceeded to kill them. Admittingly I played a RIP/Helm-version.. :D

Greetings

The Death and Taxes MU is very interesting and it's after the mirror the MU i enjoy and played the most (lost count after 500 games^^) The Miracle mirror is insanely skill intensive and the better player will almost always win the postboard games.

The D&T MU on the other hand is negative if the Death and Taxes pilot is really good (thankfully the majority of D&T players are not good).
Aside from this interesting dynamic :D there is another one: Does the opponent have Aether Vial. The game changes radically if the opponent has Aether Vial. All your countermagic becomes really bad and Jace doesn't give you a huge edge, because it's almost impossible to protect him without having a really good hand. Thankfully the chances that a Death and Taxes player has a Aether Vial on Turn 1 are about ~40 %. When you also consider that you have good answers to it postboard you should realize the following things:

-) play all cards named "Counterspell" after SB in the MD. Of course they aren't really good all the time but even if the opponent has Aether Vial they are still better than Spell Pierce, Counterbalance etc. But if the opponent doesnt have a Aether Vial or we got to destroy it the card is really good because it creates a lot of tempo and it counters Cataclysm, a card you should be always aware of.
-) play the full set of Jace. From my experience Jace is the best threat postboard against Death and Taxes. Entreat the Angels is better preboard because apart from some akward board states f. ex. against a fully charged Jitte with Thalia & Karakas& Vial and you low on life there exist fewer answers to it. Postboard it's a lot different because DT has more answers f.ex Ratchet Bomb, Cataclysm etc. If the opponent doesnt have Aether Vial, Jace usefullness changes from decent to really good, because the Death and Taxes deck struggles to deploy threats while taxing your mana without Vial. This is all math, of course there are situation where Entreat the Angels will be better but the majority of time, due to many factors, Jace will be better than Entreat. Trust me.

The MU becomes better if you test against it a lot, knowing in and out what Death and Taxes can do and knowing how powerful every card is in any given situation is key. Find the best Death and Taxes pilot you can ( hard part) and play against him a lot. Then all your normal games at a GP etc. will feel very favorable.
Of course there is a lot more information, but I'm afraid that some DT pilots read here, so if you want to know more feel free to ask me via PM or on Magic Online.

Hi, everyone. This is my first time post and I apologize to my poor English.
I always use miracles deck on little tournament but I can't win against RUG/BUG delver and Shardless BUG(or something deck like using Lilliana of the Vale.)
On this MU, how do I fight to them? And what is mention to the starting hand when using this deck?

Here's my deck list I always use.

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Sensei's Dividing Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat (this slot can change on meta game of the tournament)

4 Flood Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Mystic gate
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Layline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wear - Tear

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by misty rainforest

Hi, everyone. This is my first time post and I apologize to my poor English.
I always use miracles deck on little tournament but I can't win against RUG/BUG delver and Shardless BUG(or something deck like using Lilliana of the Vale.)
On this MU, how do I fight to them? And what is mention to the starting hand when using this deck?

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You did not watch enough SCG stream coverage. go to http://www.mtgcoverage.com/ and look for Miracles' matches, a lot of them are against BUG Delver/Shardless. RUG's tricky, especially against decent RUG player.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

The Death and Taxes MU is very interesting and it's after the mirror the MU i enjoy and played the most (lost count after 500 games^^) The Miracle mirror is insanely skill intensive and the better player will almost always win the postboard games.

-) play all cards named "Counterspell" after SB in the MD. Of course they aren't really good all the time but even if the opponent has Aether Vial they are still better than Spell Pierce, Counterbalance etc. But if the opponent doesnt have a Aether Vial or we got to destroy it the card is really good because it creates a lot of tempo and it counters Cataclysm, a card you should be always aware of.
-) play the full set of Jace. From my experience Jace is the best threat postboard against Death and Taxes. Entreat the Angels is better preboard because apart from some akward board states f. ex. against a fully charged Jitte with Thalia & Karakas& Vial and you low on life there exist fewer answers to it. Postboard it's a lot different because DT has more answers f.ex Ratchet Bomb, Cataclysm etc. If the opponent doesnt have Aether Vial, Jace usefullness changes from decent to really good, because the Death and Taxes deck struggles to deploy threats while taxing your mana without Vial. This is all math, of course there are situation where Entreat the Angels will be better but the majority of time, due to many factors, Jace will be better than Entreat. Trust me.

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Who gave you the idea that counterspell is good in the SB? What good is your counterspell if it cost 1UU and you're suffering from Port and Wasteland?

Are you serious about the Jace thing? Against a deck with full Ports and Wasteland, your Jace will cost 5 with Thalia on board. People keep saying fetch Basic, but a lot of your opening hands will force you to play the Duals, which play right into DnT's strength. In the SB game, DnT might actually Vial-in Spirit of Labyrinth in respond to Jace Brainstorm.

The most important part against DnT is not about these high CMC Jace or EtA. It's about the development of Lands. You have to be able to Wear//Tear or Disenchant properly will developing your Mana base at the same time. Why do you think Lossett have a Sulfur Elemental in his SB? This is the MU where Lossett's build becomes less effective than the others, since those Blasts are pretty useless. Other builds at least run 4 StP.

The Miracles mirror will always involve Jace and/or CB battle, focus your resource on that one.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Well, not this way :)

First of all: Counterbalance is not good. It may have been useful for you in one or two games. But it's not a good card, in no way. Same goes for Counterspell. Having UU up to counter something isn't gonna happen. So we have 5 easy cuts, cause this cards suck. As you have realised Jace, the Mind Sculptor is bad too, and yeas I have won games with Jace too, but yet again - it's not good. That makes 8 cuts from the MB.

When looking at your sideboard we want for sure:

1 EE
1 RIP
1 E-Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Grafdiggers Cage

and because we cut the Jaces we can easily up the disruption count by adding

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast

As you correctly assumed you want cheap cc1 Counterspells to deal with their early outlets, Pyroblast serves double-duty as it can also exile their bridges. Never cut Swords to Plowshares, and never think about cutting Snapcasters, just dont! :) Entreat the Angels is important too, as it serves as an kind-of-wrath but also as an useful finisher.

The MU tends to be very swingey. Back at GP Strasbourg I met Dredge twice in D2, I beat them both in G1 I believe, then I got nut-killed when they were on the plan and then in G3 I proceeded to kill them. Admittingly I played a RIP/Helm-version.. :D

Greetings

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Haha, you see? I knew I did something wrong! I had to ask it! Never even thought about cutting Counterspell, and I wonder why.. Nice to hear that you like StP too! A lot of players told me that StP is the card to cut in this matchup, but I liked it so much that I told them that I will keep at least 2.. It never disappointed me either, so back to 4 seems logic. But Counterbalance, hmm.., it also stops Nature's Claim and co. Don't you think keeping 1 or 2 is OK? I also agree on Entreat. Although I kept only 1, it always served me well and made me wonder why I didn't play more. I just couldn't find the right cards to side out :O!

Btw my plan vs Sneaky Show is:

+1 Needle +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Pyroblast +1 ReB +2 Flusterstorm +1 Venser
-4 StP -2 Terminus -2 Entreat

I never liked cutting all 4 Terminus, but it looks like there is some more room with my sideboard (I cut Humility :wink:)! I only have to keep a lot of 'bad' cards vs OmniTell.. But I do believe I have enough power vs combo.

Thanks for all your help! This there is some nice discussion going on since GP Paris (Joe Lossett also contributes to this ofc!) :smile:! Can't wait for the new articles! I hope it will give some more confidence to play those 8 rounds with Miracles (got 2 byes), and that I won't make a last minute switch to Elves or Deathblade..

As strange as it might be, i kind of agree with Adrian. Jace is a key card in the matchup in the fact that it can win you games when things go right for you that is to say when they don't have Vials (or you have a disenchant, EE or Needle early) and you are able to establish a clean board state. In my testing, it happens more than you would think against a deck with Thalia, 4 Ports et 4 Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

As strange as it might be, i kind of agree with Adrian. Jace is a key card in the matchup in the fact that it can win you games when things go right for you that is to say when they don't have Vials (or you have a disenchant, EE or Needle early) and you are able to establish a clean board state. In my testing, it happens more than you would think against a deck with Thalia, 4 Ports et 4 Wasteland.

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That makes little sense. How is Jace the "key card" when things go right for you, as you put it? If you are able to establish a clean board state, then the "key card" should be the timely enabling Terminus/Disenchant/EE, not Jace. Your eventual Win/Lock comes from your successful board swipe, not because of Jace. Once you've turned the corner using your key removal(s), Jace at that point in time is just a win condition, or something to further your lead by Brainstorming every turn. You could have easily follow up your key removal with a fair-size EtA instead of Jace, probably would achieve the same goal. In this MU, you win because:
1. Your timely removal gain you lots of CA and tempo.
2. Your Mana base was not taxed enough.

Let's say you fall behind, DnT has creatures (may be Thalia and/or Revoker) on board, maybe a Vial in play, and you don't have enough lands to escape Port to get to 4 or 5. How does Jace be that key savior to get you out of the problem? Isn't Jace just a dead card in your hand? In other words, by the time you can play Jace, if you are able to, aren't you winning already? Otherwise, Jace can't save you, Terminus can. You tell me, which one is more important?

I said a key card not the key card (which would mean the most important card). Sure you win more thanks to your removals and your stable manabase than with Jace but the scenarios were you can resolve quite safely and win thanks to the CA produced by Jace might actually come up more often than you think ... at least that's what i think and i don't seem to be alone to think this way.

Do you side out your Jaces against D&T ?

Maybe my english is not good enough, so it was maybe unclear what i said. I didn't say Jace is the bread and butter in this MU, I said it's a card that is decent and good when your opponent doesn't have Vial. Whithout Vial Death and Taxes struggles to play new threats WHILE taxing our mana. Then you play a removal spell and enter Jace mode ( Brainstorm till he's dead). I did win countless games with that. It's not a good way but it's a decent way which works a lot of the time. Just play more games, become more experienced then you will make the same conclusion. Neither Terminus nor many other removals will win you the game. Jace will do, because the longer he sticks the harder it gets to remove him.

Edit: I also didn't say that Counterspell is great in this MU. I said it's the majority of the time better than every Spell Pierce, Counterbalance etc. Of course if you have better cards like Sulfur Elemental etc. yes of course you don't cut them for Counterspell. Is my English so bad that this was not clear??

I board about like this for Death and Taxes:
-2 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Jace
+2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Venser

I leave in 3 Counterbalance because they are good when Vial is not active (either because they didn't draw one early enough or because we've Needled/Disenchanted/Vener'd it), which happens often enough. I leave in 2 FoW and a Counterspell almost purely for the purpose of stopping Cataclysm (depending on my hand, I might be tempted to FoW a t1 Vial). Jace isn't great in the matchup because of all their mana denial and the fact that you can't cast him instantly in response to Port triggers. That said... Jace is still the king on an empty board, and post-Terminus he is the best card you can play. Entreat and Terminus are the actual good cards of the matchup, so Jace helping to enable them deserves some merit.

You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?

How has been Venser for you in this matchup honestly ?

What about (punishing) Jund? Do you side out Jace there? Or keep 1/2?

Jund
+1 Explosives +1 Needle +1 Relic +1 RiP +1 Blood Moon +1 Moat +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Venser +1 Entreat
-4 FoW -1 ReB -1 Pierce -2 Jace -2 Clique

I board like this with the list I posted (for now, Humility has become Moat and Cage is now Relic of Progenitus). Do I board too much? With Unexpectedly Absent, Venser, Explosives and Needle I have some ways to fight Liliana :laugh:! This is also a matchup where I don't use the 'dodge Decay and Charm' tactic. They can never remove all permanents =).

If I want to board all Blasts vs Delver decks (+ maybe Blood moon and Wear//Tear), which I have to with my list (I think), should I then seriously consider a basic mountain?

Ps. I keep 2x Jace vs Death and Taxes :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?

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Twndomn is for sure. They are so great and are never a dead draw. So many applications, countering T1 Vial, countering Cataclysm when the opponent doesn't have 6 mana and of course Batterskull. Really a great card with broad applications in this MU. Who needs Jace? Countering T1 Vial and Cataclysm with Spell Pierce is key.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

You keep Spell Pierce in Drza ?

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No, I don't run Spell Pierce for now. REB kind of took that slot for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

How has been Venser for you in this matchup honestly ?

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Pretty good. Oddly enough, many times our role against Death and Taxes takes on a tempo sort of feel, where we are just keeping them in check long enough to Entreat them for lethal. Venser is good against their equipment, good against their Revokers (EoT bounce your Revoker, now I can untap and Top, Jace, etc to find an answer for Revoker before he comes back down), you can bounce their Ports EoT to have more mana during your turn, among all the other silly things that Venser loves to do.

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Originally Posted by Lans89

What about (punishing) Jund? Do you side out Jace there? Or keep 1/2?

Jund
+1 Explosives +1 Needle +1 Relic +1 RiP +1 Blood Moon +1 Moat +1 Tutor +1 Wear//Tear +1 Venser +1 Entreat
-4 FoW -1 ReB -1 Pierce -2 Jace -2 Clique

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This is my board for Jund, I don't really make a distinction between Punishing and non-Punishing since they almost all run it (and at no real cost to them). If I played EE, I'd probably bring that in addition, but I think Supreme Verdict or Purge is just better given a choice.

-4 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterspell, -1 Snapcaster
+2 RIP, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Celestial Purge, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Venser

Pretty straight forward, I don't like countermagic too much because of their discard; Snapcaster is the weakest of my creatures because of RIP; and then just a pile of removal and an extra Entreat. Liliana is annoying, but beatable, even after an ultimate. It is a grindy, topdeck oriented match; Sylvan Library is their best threat and Top is ours. Counterbalance (or just a huge Entreat) should come online before Punishing Fire gets too relevant and unless they draw Sylvan Library, they have no way to find Decays for all of our stuff. Trading a Jace with their Punishing Fire/Bolt in order to put a big Entreat back on top of the library is a fair trade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lans89

If I want to board all Blasts vs Delver decks (+ maybe Blood moon and Wear//Tear), which I have to with my list (I think), should I then seriously consider a basic mountain?

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I usually board all my REBs in against Delver and I only play two Volcanics. It only hurts when you have an opening hand with Volcanic in it and have to send it out early, otherwise it isn't problematic to just sandbag your REBs/Volcanics until the mid or late game. Mountain or no Mountain, I prefer Disenchant because it is easier on our mana.

On a side note, I used to board in 2 Flusterstorms over the last 2 REBs for BUG Delver, but I think that with the increase of them SBing things like Vendillion Clique and Envelop that all 4 REBs is probably correct now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

This is my board for Jund, I don't really make a distinction between Punishing and non-Punishing since they almost all run it (and at no real cost to them). If I played EE, I'd probably bring that in addition, but I think Supreme Verdict or Purge is just better given a choice.

-4 FoW, -2 REB, -1 Counterspell, -1 Snapcaster
+2 RIP, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Celestial Purge, +1 Disenchant, +1 Entreat, +1 Venser

Pretty straight forward, I don't like countermagic too much because of their discard; Snapcaster is the weakest of my creatures because of RIP; and then just a pile of removal and an extra Entreat. Liliana is annoying, but beatable, even after an ultimate. It is a grindy, topdeck oriented match; Sylvan Library is their best threat and Top is ours. Counterbalance (or just a huge Entreat) should come online before Punishing Fire gets too relevant and unless they draw Sylvan Library, they have no way to find Decays for all of our stuff. Trading a Jace with their Punishing Fire/Bolt in order to put a big Entreat back on top of the library is a fair trade.

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I feel Jund is probably the only match up having both Snapcaster and RiP is correct. Having RiP is self explanatory. Snapcaster is for 3 reasons: 1. You can still put on pressure against Liliana. Even with RiP in play, flashing in Snapcaster might force Jund to play that PFire when he's still waiting for his Abrupt Decay. 2. You just need blockers. I'm willing to trade a Snapcaster against a Dark Confidant, even if RiP is in play. With BBE cascading, you simply need more blockers. 3. Since you run Celestial Purge, it's very possible for you to flashback it using Snapcaster, if you time it well to avoid DRS removing it. This could be helpful if you can't find RiP or RiP got blown up.

Overall, Snapcaster is simply too useful in lots of match-ups, including this one, regardless RiP's in or not.

I think you are totally right ;) but what about the Storm and the BUG matchups ?

I disagree about taking snapcaster out. Never do it. Its amazing in all the same matchups that RIP is amazing in. Dont worry about the possibility of removing your own GY.

I Have a 1-2 split of RIP/relic because I don't like bringing in RIP vs BUG. Their decays and charms basically do nothing until you cast RIP and then they just kill it. Relic, doesnt have that issue since it replaces itself.

I bring in RIP against GY combo (including ANT), Punising Jund, RUG delver (less outs to RIP than BUG), and stuff like nic fit or lands. I bring in relic against basically all those AND stuff like BUG, and decks with small amounts of GY shinanigans, where sometimes I want GY hate, sometimes just drawing a card is ok, so like esper with lingering souls, TES, etc.

There's a few matchups where I don't mind leaving in Snapcaster and RIP, but they are mostly combo. Regardless, you might be right about Jund. I've been pretty dissatisfied with Counterbalance against Jund lately, so I might try leaving in Snapcaster and maybe bringing in a couple BEB instead. BEB is pretty narrow, but countering REBs and nuking Bloodbraid isn't the worst. Even countering a Punishing Fire at the right time can allow me to swing at Liliana. Anyways, I'll see how it goes, but either way, these slots are pretty weak.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

On RIP + Snapcaster. Let's put it simple. In all my years of playing this archetype, I have never boarded out Snapcaster Mages. Be it wrong or right, I just never did it.

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By the way, my first article should go online tomorrow, next one to follow in about 2 weeks from now.

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

By the way, my first article should go online tomorrow, next one to follow in about 2 weeks from now.

Greetings

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arghh..., Ein should listen to this one. It's... mildly annoying.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-19-a-noble-undertaking/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

arghh..., Ein should listen to this one. It's... mildly annoying.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-19-a-noble-undertaking/

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I thought the cast was great, I don't know what you're talking about. Philip has me on Facebook, he can hit me up whenever.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I thought the cast was great, I don't know what you're talking about. Philip has me on Facebook, he can hit me up whenever.

-Matt

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He's referring to Carsten calling his boarding plan against Team America terrible.... and y'all agreeing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

He's referring to Carsten calling his boarding plan against Team America terrible.... and y'all agreeing.

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You're correct. I already raised my objection and reasoning on the podcast thread.