[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

I'm a proponent of Dark Petition, but I'll concede that (next to Preordain) it's likely the worst card in the deck—not a bad card, but worse than our Great Cards. I run Petition because I really don't like rocking up to a tournament with only four tutors, especially given that they can get Extracted or Surgeried because they're quads. Several pages back there was a debate over Grim Tutor versus Dark Petition, and though I can see the case for Grim, I really don't like it because it's rather inefficient. (N.B.: if you're not running Ad Nauseam and/or you're running Empty in your maindeck, Grim gets better, but I think Petition works better in AdN/Emty-less mainboards.)

I think Togores's business-light plan is a bit too ballsy for me, but I've been considering cutting back on high-costed cards after Worcester. Petition would be the first to go.

Has anybody been running Personal Tutor lately? I didn't get the chance to test it much, but I'm starting to look at it again as a low-cost alternative to Petition. I've also been considering Impulse and Peer through Depths, perhaps as substitutes for Preordain. Anyone tried those out lately/ever?

Personal tutor and all the other cards are really bad.
Personal is -1 card and is a sorvery that only searches sorcerys. I rather play petition. And while you mention non petition decks being bad vs surgical (wich I think is a cornercase, more latter). Personal is much worse.
Peers not finding land, or led is also not good. Also costs to much mana and they will daze it every day (still better than lim duls, wich is also a -1). And impulse is ok. But paying 2 mana to see 1 more card than preordain or top while both of this cards are much more mana eficient is the worst. All t1 where you dont cast a spell are a waste. And with impulse much more. You really dont have to waste time in testing this cards :D


Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.

Also if you mention the problem vs surgical. How big are the options of getting into a scenatio where they discard your tutor, surgical it and you find your 1off petition in time wile not beein really lucky? Also you say you have trouble finding a 4x infernal so a 1x should be like a hell of a try.

On grim, while its better with emtpy and also g2 to search anti hate cards. I never liked the card. Not for the price but just because its WHITE BORDERED, and that sucks :D. And also the double lifeloss with pif hurts a lot. And there are to many games we end up winning at 3-4 life vs a DRS.

I cant blame anyone for running more tutors. Its fine, but I like to be able to play long games and I almost never need them. There are cornercase scenarios. But playing a card because its good in 1/10 (number totally radom) games dosnt seem right to me. I want to do every game the same and in the more straightforward way. We are a combo deck. So just rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Togores

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGX5nx2875M

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This brought a tear to my eyes. So beautiful watching a Storm player play through hate. Just beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Personal tutor and all the other cards are really bad. . . .

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Thanks a lot for the input!

I agree that mathematically we're getting less of an advantage with Impulse and Peer. The two things that attracted me to them were that a) they don't get Chaliced straight out of the gate and b) they're instants, but I haven't playtested them in large part for the reasons you mentioned.

I had some trouble with Personal Tutor because we need another cantrip to actually make the card we've tutored "live," and that's why I'm not running Personal right now, either. Still interested to hear if there are conflicting opinions.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.

Also if you mention the problem vs surgical. How big are the options of getting into a scenatio where they discard your tutor, surgical it and you find your 1off petition in time wile not beein really lucky? Also you say you have trouble finding a 4x infernal so a 1x should be like a hell of a try.

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You're right; I phrased it a bit too strongly re: Surgical. Thanks for keeping me honest.

I've had a lot of trouble with cantrips, though—not because I don't know what I'm doing (though I'm sure I could improve), but because I keep finding them at inopportune times when I'm looking for something to close the game. Often, this happens when I've cast a Ponder or Brainstorm-fetch, and all I find are more cantrips, even after shuffling.

Are you running singletons Preordain and Top? I've been trying and trying to find something to fill one of those slots with more "bang for our buck," but I haven't settled on anything yet. I'm reeeeaaaally fishing here, but what about Scroll Rack?

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Originally Posted by Togores

On grim, while its better with emtpy and also g2 to search anti hate cards. I never liked the card. Not for the price but just because its WHITE BORDERED, and that sucks :D. And also the double lifeloss with pif hurts a lot. And there are to many games we end up winning at 3-4 life vs a DRS.

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Agreed on all counts. I really don't like using tutors to find anything but business or mana because, even if we're taking out a hatebear or a Flusterstorm or something, we're often throwing away a turn. The same point was made in the TES thread: tutoring (or wishing) for anti-hate needs to give us a blowout, or it isn't worth the mana. Also (I've said it before, but I think it's worth repeating for readers) hitting Grim off of AdN is worse than hitting anything else in the deck except a second copy of PiF. There's also the price D:

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Originally Posted by Togores

I cant blame anyone for running more tutors. Its fine, but I like to be able to play long games and I almost never need them. There are cornercase scenarios. But playing a card because its good in 1/10 (number totally radom) games dosnt seem right to me. I want to do every game the same and in the more straightforward way.

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That's a good point regarding long games. I guess I've always been a "jam it" kind of guy, even in games that go past turn seven, and oftentimes (every 3-4 rounds?) I find that having a tutor that doesn't require LED to go Demonic is a useful thing, especially if I've got an Infernal in hand as well (this is rarer than having no tutors, like you said, but it happens enough to mention). I prefer a fifth tutor over a second Tendrils in my maindeck, but I usually side out Petition against counter-heavy decks and burn. It's really good against non-blue decks.

I've had a little trouble finding business over time, and it was really bad at Worcester for me (that round when I found 1x Tendrils and nothing else). I'll admit that I need to practice more, but I keep feeling like I find no tutors/PiF/Tendrils more often than I find multiples.

I'm not trying to challenge your credentials (which are really impressive), but have you playtested Petition at all, or did you just reject the card when you first saw it? I'd be interested to hear how/why you thought it made the deck worse if you've tried it out in tournaments, not just the way it looks like it would work, if that makes sense. Again, I'm not trying to be snide or to call you out; I like hearing everyone's opinions, even if they're gut reactions. I totally understand if you looked at the card and said "nah" right away.

Incidentally, I just realized I'm really verbose in my posts. If I'm being annoying and/or an idiot, by all means let me know.

I appreciate your input a lot! Keep crushing it.

1) personal tutor needint another cantrip is not so cool. Best card here is top. But if we are cantrip dependant why not just play doomsday (wich I have been playing at the last local events)? Also personal is not mistical. I remeber that when mistical was a card my sb was amazing. Just a lot of 1 off instant a sorcerys to fight every situation with 3 sdt in the deck. Also t1 top, t2 mistical into nauseam with ritual or led was like the best. But personal not being able to tutor nauseam is quite bad.

2a) thats the problem with cantrip deck, they give you lot of ways to decide your future but also happens a lot that you just cantrip into cantrip and thats a waste of time and mana. But thats also the way to compresa your deck with just good cards and not situational cards.

2b) I run a 1-1 split of top and preordain. I like 2 tops, but they are slow and this split is just there because from sideboarding reasons I sometimes like to taje out one or the other depending on the matchup. Also my sb is build like perfectly with exact bad cards that come out vs good cards in every matchup. Thats also the reason I need lot of time everytime I change my deck because every card I change makes me change all my sb plans and thats a work of lots of time to make everything fix perfectly.

3) I tested the grim fron time to time. Was good finding some cards. Also was good finding decay for balance. But never really liked it. Has almost the same problem as petition. It dosnt work really well with Led or multiple leds.

4a) Sometimes Its not your day and you cantrip a lot and never find a card. Thats just variance and also has happen to me a lot of times. Then other days you just play an event and kill everyone t1 like there is no tomorrow. Just keep playing.

4b) Im not the kind of slam it guy. I play really safe and never want to loose a game I could win if I wait. Just look up the finale of the gp where me waiting out was the key to this game. Even gor him to discard a counter just by not giving him a target before.

4c) I was really excites when pettition came out. Tested it when it was spoiler. Then in 1x and 2x. I just got floodes in bussines. Cryed everytime I had ritual + led + petition, cryed everytime my opp started with shaman (shaman hurts a lot, but with petition much more) and cryed everytime I drew petition and no cabal ritual (its the card you want) and that got worser facing a shaman. I ended up sidding it a lot. Its a good card to go fast. But it being your plan and just get desteroyed by rip. Wich is a fine card but if I would have a preordain to find an infernal instead of that 5cmc tutor. Eveything would be better.

4d) your fine at speaking. Im not good at english and sometime say thing in a manner it could seems cocky or so, but Im just trying to explain myself as good as possible.

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Originally Posted by Togores

Was not bad meaning from me. Just usualy I get this question a lot XD

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ahahahah I saw your videos on twitch, it's easier to handle the storm count rather than the dark petition questions ahahahahaha

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Originally Posted by Togores

Also I have played for years 4 tutors only and when you squeeze the most out of your cantrips you never have a problem finding them. You play a total of 7+1 bussines (+1 being toa) and thats more than enought.

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To me it appears, that most people who struggle to find one of the ITs in a reasonable time, don't use their cantrips to find that particular card, but settle for DR/CR/LED in the first turns instead.

From a mathematical POV, its nonsense to cantrip for one of the 12 manaaccelerators, if you NEED to find a 4-off to combo. Over time, your hand will fill with mana naturally due to the decks mana/business distribution

Yea but there are also matchups where you don't want business on hand on draw. It's sad loosing to single turn 1 discard. Heavy cantrip hands are best then.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Yea but there are also matchups where you don't want business on hand on draw. It's sad loosing to single turn 1 discard. Heavy cantrip hands are best then.

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you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.

Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......

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Originally Posted by Morden

you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.

Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......

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You partly answered your own question. Unlike Dark Petition, PIF is "counter-proof" and creates cardadvantage midgame if you can flashback some discard, cantrips and stuff and it remains in the yard to combo off later. You can also just chain cantrips from your graveyard to grab the ToA/IT with just Rituals and PIF in hand

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Originally Posted by Morden

you're right, but against discard decks just keep the tutor/finisher floating on the top of your library thanks to sensei/ponder, and draw it when you are ready to go.

Can anyone explain me the meaning of 2 pif maindeck? I don't want to naturally draw it (unless I have a lot of rituals and the tutor), it's a card that usually I tutor for. Don't you think Empty deserves a place in the main instead of 1 pif?
like 1 nauseam, 1 tendrils, 1 pif, 1 empty. Also if pif is countered, you can cast if from the graveyard.......

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For a long time I underestimated the power of PiF-plus-cantrips. It's more hit-or-miss than a second Petition, but it finds business far more often than it fizzles. Also, if you draw into a hand of PiF, Tutor, and mana, you can weather at least one piece of countermagic, sometimes more if you've also got LED. Playing Tutor, breaking LED, and discarding Past in Flames often forks the opponent by presenting them with two "must-counter" cards at the same time. If they counter the Tutor, you just flashback PiF, mana, and the Tutor; if they don't counter the Tutor, often you'll have enough mana to tutor a discard spell to knock out their countermagic before flashing back PiF, mana, and Tutor for Tendrils.

I don't like Empty in the maindeck. It makes the deck a bit faster but noticeably less consistent, and tutoring for Ad Nauseam is usually a better choice, even if it costs 1 more. I used to use Empty a lot more than I do now; these days, I only bring it in against decks that don't run many threats and few (if any) boardwipes, like Eldrazi, Mav/D&T, and occasionally Delvers. It's also a much more vulnerable win-condition than Tendrils is.

Played back-to-back 3-rounders yesterday, going 3-0 and 1-2. Played Maverick, Show and Tell, and Shardless, then Dredge, Shardless, and Show and Tell. Lost to Shardless and S&T in the second tournament. Not a whole lot to report, but I tried out Chrome Mox in the main again, and it worked ok. Preferred it to a second Preordain, but also had to cast it once or twice with no imprint. I also brought in two Dazes in the sideboard, but they didn't show against Mav and my opponents built up mana to pay it off in the matches against Shardless and S&T. Perhaps not ideal matches to use it, but I wanted to get a feel for the thing, and I haven't really 'boarded much (if anything) against S&T and Shardless in some time.

[EDIT: Hymn to Tourach is really yucky. I got shredded by it in two games against Shardless. Another reason 2-PiF is my preferred build is that it's great against discard-heavy decks.]

[EDIT again: Ad Nauseam worked great in a game or two, but it came really close to failing for me in game 2 against Dredge. I went down to 3, finding rituals, Past in Flames, and LED, but I needed another initial mana source or LED to make red mana to flashback a tutor from my 'yard. Had to pass at three life on turn 1. It didn't end up being a problem because I had the business for the following turn, but if my opponent had gotten a luckier dredge or had been on Burn or Delver or something, things would've gone poorly.]

Fingers crossed we can get more double-tourneys at the Local in the future, or maybe x-proxy Vintage! (P9, Imperial Seal, and [maybe] Library notwithstanding, I've almost put together TPS! I'd love to talk strategy via PM if anyone's interested.)

I played the local Legacy FNM last week to 3-0, defeating Aggro Loam (despite an actually awful punt in G1 and his maindeck teegs/chalices), Shardless BUG, and Cloudpost.

@Morden, I don't do two Past in Flames in the main, but I have another in the board, and it really does help in matchups where the opponent has countermagic and we need to be more threat-dense; in one of my games against Shardless, I was able to win with Past in Flames through a Deathrite Shaman because I didn't have to tutor for the Past in Flames, and instead naturally drew it, freeing up the tutors I had for other business. Empty, by contrast, is good in very specific scenarios, but I think they're narrower than the natural-drawn Past in Flames scenarios, and I think most of the times that I'd want an Empty, especially game one, I'd sooner just Ad Nauseam (the main exception being six mana available versus seven on turn one or two).

I also like Dark Petition for many of the reasons mentioned by others, especially the increase in tutor density. I agree that it's not always perfect (sometimes it's too expensive up front, rarely we can miss on spell mastery, can't keep going from five life on an ad nauseam), but overall I have found that it's worth the slot. I play it and a Chrome Mox over a second preordain and top; I don't like the Preordain but do want a 13th cantrip, and top is awesome but feels slow sometimes (plus there's a ton of Eldrazi where I play; if there were more miracles or something maybe I'd switch back).

Also, everyone here already knows this, but the extra Tendrils in the board are great; it's surprising how few people expect you to have an extra one or two post-board. I was able to beat Cloudpost when he was floating a Flusterstorm on top with SDT because he saved it for my Tendrils rather than attacking one of my tutors. I cast the ToA, he flipped to Fluster because he'd die if he didn't, and then I tutored for the second ToA and got him, which he didn't expect.

Edit: I also have that "cantrip into more cantrips and lands" experience from time to time, but I just try to remind myself that most of the time, we get a good mix, and that Ponder finds the LED or Tutor you need to go off, and sometimes you Brainstorm your hand of Land, Ponder, Ponder, Preordain, Dark Ritual into LED, IT, Ponder, Dark Ritual, Land, and then fetch into the Ponder finding another Dark Ritual and just ranch them. It's harder to notice the times the Ponders get you that clutch business in a pinch because it just feels like "working as intended" rather than full of despair, but I think they tend to wash out in our favor. Part of what brought it home for me was trying to brew a twelve tutor list with a ton of rituals when DP came out, thinking "oh I'll just always tutor for what I need," but that deck was clunky as hell because you'd get hands with all tutors and no rituals or all rituals and no tutors, and just no way to fix it if you didn't have one of the brainstorms, not to mention managing to get the right number of lands in play.

thanks guys for the suggestions, I will test over and over!

Hi. I'm Manuel Gomez. I post few times in the source. In my point of view the best list is with 2 past in flames and without dark petition in main deck. The two best performances (Kay Sawatari top4 tokio and togores top1 in prague) played this configuration.

In my last big tournament my performance was 11/4 with the Caleb decklist (2 petition main) I won 4 Eldrazis but I lost vs 2 grixis delver, 1 lands and one mirror in the final round. Petition is good to go fast, but not optimal vs the blue tiers.

Hi, I am currently playing Rodrigo's list but, while I am now very confident vs Miracles with this set up, I really suffer Grixis Delver to the point of literally not knowing how the hell I can win this match up without an incredible starting hand.

They play so many cantrips that our attempt to destroy their hand are ridicolus, their creatures put so much pressure with such low mana investment required and their mana denial is incredible difficult to deal with without drawing multiple lands. Let alone when they have cabal therapy and a creature on board, in which case only flusterstorm can save the game basically. What is the right gameplan? Obviously, Ad Nasueam is not that good in this match up, but Pif is also sub optimal considering their side and drs.

I tried a single Carpet of Flower in side but the game vs Grixis are too fast to find it consistently and I am thinking of putting a second copy in replacement of the third Tendrils

Currently my side is +1 Carpet Flower +2 Flusterstorm +1 Empty the Warrens -1 Rain of Filth -1 Sensei -1 Ponder - 1 Cabal Ritual

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Originally Posted by Exodus

I tried a single Carpet of Flower in side but the game vs Grixis are too fast to find it consistently and I am thinking of putting a second copy in replacement of the third Tendrils

Currently my side is +1 Carpet Flower +2 Flusterstorm +1 Empty the Warrens -1 Rain of Filth -1 Sensei -1 Ponder - 1 Cabal Ritual

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while I'm not playing this particular list and my area isn't dense on the MU... but Carpet of Flowers is notoriously weak against DRS+Daze, Flusterstorm - what does it do really? it's passive and rather ineffective vs. CT which I suppose you're aiming at... I prefer just few AD if I'm not mistaken Rodrigo used to do similar thing ... I also keep 2 ToA, SDT and EtW but that's a different story

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

while I'm not playing this particular list and my area isn't dense on the MU... but Carpet of Flowers is notoriously weak against DRS+Daze, Flusterstorm - what does it do really? it's passive and rather ineffective vs. CT which I suppose you're aiming at... I prefer just few AD if I'm not mistaken Rodrigo used to do similar thing ... I also keep 2 ToA, SDT and EtW but that's a different story

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Can you please share your side? How many AD do you exactly side in? Thank you in advice (anyway do you have 2 ToA main or do you add 1 ToA from side?)

Anyway yes, I side in Flusterstorm mainly to deal with CT but also because I find it good in general in this match up since it evades daze/pierce. Why do you find it bad in this match up? I mean it still our only answer to Probe+Cabal besides Brainstorm.
Carpet comes in as a simply upgrade of Rain which is imo really bad in this match up considering his land denial and his pressure. I think it's always been considered good vs grixis and I've seen many people using it in this match up. I don't agree with you on this point.
I don't keep SDT because I consider it too slow in this match up but I'll try to keep it and side in some decays.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Can you please share your side? How many AD do you exactly side in? Thank you in advice (anyway do you have 2 ToA main or do you add 1 ToA from side?)

Anyway yes, I side in Flusterstorm mainly to deal with CT but also because I find it good in general in this match up since it evades daze/pierce. Why do you find it bad in this match up? I mean it still our only answer to Probe+Cabal besides Brainstorm.
Carpet comes in as a simply upgrade of Rain which is imo really bad in this match up considering his land denial and his pressure. I think it's always been considered good vs grixis and I've seen many people using it in this match up. I don't agree with you on this point.
I don't keep SDT because I consider it too slow in this match up but I'll try to keep it and side in some decays.

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You side in Flusterstorm just for the CT which they can flashback anyways? Doesn't sound like a plan. Carpet is crap. Not only can your opponent work with two lands only, but can manipulate their landcount with Daze. Moreover your deck is already 40% mana and you wanna sideboard in even more mana?

I don't get it honestly. Yes, they can flashback CT but I still prefer not being double discarded over being single discarded. Considering their first CT can be blind, countering it makes the flashback much less consistent. I don't find other better plans to be honest vs cabal therapy, what's yours? And honestly I am still skeptical about your opinions on Carpet. It's always been considered good vs delver decks and I find it the most consistent card to pay daze and pierce vs a land denial deck that plays only islands, considering also that we add mana before they play their dazes (at least if they don't throw their dazes on our cantrips), and the most difficult part is starting the storm, not having enough mana at the end of the count.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

I don't get it honestly. Yes, they can flashback CT but I still prefer not being double discarded over being single discarded. Considering their first CT can be blind, countering it makes the flashback much less consistent. I don't find other better plans to be honest vs cabal therapy, what's yours? And honestly I am still skeptical about your opinions on Carpet. It's always been considered good vs delver decks and I find it the most consistent card to pay daze and pierce vs a land denial deck that plays only islands, considering also that we add mana before they play their dazes (at least if they don't throw their dazes on our cantrips), and the most difficult part is starting the storm, not having enough mana at the end of the count.

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Just look at it from the following POV: if you counter the first CT, you are down a card anyways. An experienced caster of CT, will hit something most of the time even blind as they can read the gamestate and the related cards in hand of their opponent like the classic turn 2 brainstorm into a fetchland, so aiming blind, early therapies at Brainstorms often pay off. In general, you play against CT just like you do against Hymn: try to minimize the impact and let them discard unimportant, redundant stuff at best, which you can flashback later or don't care for and keep the important stuff floated on top of the deck.

Free yourself from that "always besn considered good" hivemind stuff. We had that lately with Dark Confidant as well. Don't point to Capet paying for Daze/Pierce, if you have to rely on it resolving against those cards and you having to fetch a green dual early against a deck with Wasteland. Don't just ignore the tradeoffs made. The most reliable way to pay for tempo counter and get around manadenial in general is dropping lands. A preordain finding a land has more value in the context of manadenial than Tropical into Carpet and hoping your opponent is stupid enough to play right into it the following turns. Carpet is a manastone most of the time which you have to expose your first land for.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Carpet is crap. Not only can your opponent work with two lands only, but can manipulate their landcount with Daze. Moreover your deck is already 40% mana and you wanna sideboard in even more mana?

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Are seriously telling us here that Sol Ring for coloured mana is bad?

I like Carpets against Grixis. I'm currently on 2 Past in Flames, 2 Tendrils , 1 Empty and board out two Preordains for two Carpets. Quite happy with the plan.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Are seriously telling us here that Sol Ring for coloured mana is bad?

I like Carpets against Grixis. I'm currently on 2 Past in Flames, 2 Tendrils , 1 Empty and board out two Preordains for two Carpets. Quite happy with the plan.

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I did not. I think it deserves more context like the mentioned required green mana, it being conditional from your opponents play, it being redundant with all the mana in the deck, it not adressing the CabalTherapy shredding of hands, etc.

"Colored Mana SolRing" is blunt and not accurate, pretty much like naming Dark Confidant "Two mana Ad Nauseam"

Personally, I don't really think carpet is bad, but I don't think it's that great either, to the point where it's not currently in my sideboard. The main problem I have with carpet is that it's so inconsistent and unreliable, sometimes it's absolutely amazing and sometimes it does absolutely nothing, which makes me prefer just having preordain or cabal ritual instead (which are the first cards I'd side out for carpet vs delver decks), as those cards are much more consistent in how they play out, so it's easier to plan around.

Lemnar, you made really good points on flusterstorm, thank you for your analysis. Although I don't agree on everything (fluster countering hymn let you down one less card, so it is a positive trade off, and discarding cabal with a duress/cabal is as well one less card in your hand, so it is not about card advantage but more about protecting our card quality, if not we shouldn't ever target an opponent thoughtseize or a cabal with our discard card) so in this perspective flusterstorm can simple be considered an added "duress" reactive instead of proactive, I think you are right anyway when you said that the best plan is tryng to maintain our important stuff on top.

For Carpet, I still consider it AT WORST an unwastable City of Brass that costs 1 but can be played the same turn of a land. And still, forcing the opponent to play with just 1 land (thus slowing him down) or to daze unimportant spells just to bounce their lands, it's an advantage itself. I agree anyway that the mono copy is not consistent enough and that fetching for a tropical exposes us to wasteland, but then I don't understand the inclusion of abrupt decay neither.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I did not. I think it deserves more context like the mentioned required green mana, it being conditional from your opponents play, it being redundant with all the mana in the deck, it not adressing the CabalTherapy shredding of hands, etc.

"Colored Mana SolRing" is blunt and not accurate, pretty much like naming Dark Confidant "Two mana Ad Nauseam"

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Your literal first statement after labelling Carpet as crap was that Grixis can operate off two lands. In that situation, Carpet produces two mana, same as Sol Ring. Costing G is not an issue, I'm playing Carpet with one land that taps for green currently. Further, Carpet actually does something against Cabal Therapy, it lets you store mana on the battlefield. That is very relevant.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Lemnar, you made really good points on flusterstorm, thank you for your analysis. Although I don't agree on everything (fluster countering hymn let you down one less card, so it is a positive trade off, and discarding cabal with a duress/cabal is as well one less card in your hand, so it is not about card advantage but more about protecting our card quality, if not we shouldn't ever target an opponent thoughtseize or a cabal with our discard card) so in this perspective flusterstorm can simple be considered an added "duress" reactive instead of proactive, I think you are right anyway when you said that the best plan is tryng to maintain our important stuff on top.

For Carpet, I still consider it AT WORST an unwastable City of Brass that costs 1 but can be played the same turn of a land. And still, forcing the opponent to play with just 1 land (thus slowing him down) or to daze unimportant spells just to bounce their lands, it's an advantage itself. I agree anyway that the mono copy is not consistent enough and that fetching for a tropical exposes us to wasteland, but then I don't understand the inclusion of abrupt decay neither.

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There is no need to agree on anything; just take away what you consider relevant for you :)

I just mentioned hymn as another common option to strip two cards from your hand just like Therapy (+flashback). Sure you target Hymn with your discard against the respective decks, but discard itself is not quite the threat we sideboard for usually. Even if Flusterstorm might snatch a Hymn for value here and there possibly, it remains a sideboard-card for the combo mirror.

I don't doubt that Carpet is able to produce 1-2 rainbow mana (given you get it past Daze & Co.) but if its countered and your tropical island gets hit by wasteland in return, it makes you tear your copies immediately *laugh*. For the sake of stabilizing your mana against decks with tempo-counters and wastelands, cantripping into lands off a basic island is not only less risky in terms of wasteland, but also takes no sideboard slots. The difference to Decay is simply that the instant can't be dazed/pierced/etc and you usually cast it end of turn (which means your opponent needs to have an untapped Wasteland available or you get to untap with your green dual). Evading the described early game scenario and using it as a lategame ritual against yardhate is fine, but often unnecessary given Dark Ritual and LEDs give a fuck about hardhate anyways

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Your literal first statement after labelling Carpet as crap was that Grixis can operate off two lands. In that situation, Carpet produces two mana, same as Sol Ring. Costing G is not an issue, I'm playing Carpet with one land that taps for green currently. Further, Carpet actually does something against Cabal Therapy, it lets you store mana on the battlefield. That is very relevant.

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Ok, lets ignore the whole aspect of sideboard space and what to remove from the maindeck postboard for a second and just look at Carpet in a vacuum. LEDs, Petals, Lands also store mana on the field against discard, so why add additional cards with the same angle from the sideboard to switch manaproducers between MB and SB?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Ok, lets ignore the whole aspect of sideboard space and what to remove from the maindeck postboard for a second and just look at Carpet in a vacuum. LEDs, Petals, Lands also store mana on the field against discard, so why add additional cards with the same angle from the sideboard to switch manaproducers between MB and SB?

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That makes literal zero sense. By that logic, let's just run one each of Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual and LED, because additional copies don't offer anything new.

At the risk of jumping into the middle of a flamewar, I've got some questions about sideboarding, and it seems like this might be the best opportunity to bring them up. First of all, my main's got 14 lands, 2 PiF, and singletons AdN, Petition, Tendrils, Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth, Preordain. Here's my 'board:

4x Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Loam; potential singleton against other Chalice decks, Mav, or D&T, but I've only got one green land in the 75)
2x Chain of Vapor (Mav, D&T, Stoneblade, Burn, maybe Dredge)
2x Tendrils (Miracles, 1x versus Burn)
1x Krosan Grip (Miracles)
1x Hurkyl's Recall (Eldrazi, MUD, Loam and assorted Chalice decks)
1x Sensei's Divining Top (Miracles)
1x Empty the Warrens (BUG, D&T, Mav)
1x Daze (formerly Disfigure #2; tried it against Mav, Shardless, S&T)
1x Disfigure (Mav, D&T, Burn)
1x Tropical Island (Miracles, Eldrazi, D&T, Loam)

I'm wondering about whether I've got an appropriate setup for dealing with a variety of matchups; this list is tuned a bit for my metagame, which isn't a big one and lacks a number of difficult matchups (Grixis, Loam, Reanimator; not much fast combo, either, because I was the fast-combo guy until I got Storm together). Hurkyl's and Daze are experimental/hedging.

Is this a balanced setup? The lion's share of the slots go to fighting Miracles, but I'm wondering whether I've been planning too much for just Miracles and hatebears, or whether the cards have enough crossover value to cover my other bases.

[EDIT: There are also matchups against which I'm not sure what, if anything, can or should be done to improve our odds, especially Eldrazi, Dredge, Belcher/All Spells, Tribal Shenanigans, and Reanimator.]

I'm going light on green cards for a number of reasons, and I tested Carpet and Swarm for a bit and wasn't happy with them. Doesn't mean they're bad cards; I just didn't feel like they were performing as well as I would've liked. One thing to note about [EDIT: AAAAH! Carpet of Flowers] is that it's not entirely true that it's "Wasteland-proof" mana; you still need to run out a dual or a mana rock to play it, meaning that if the land gets wasted, you're still throwing away a permanent source to get a (better?) permanent source. Getting 1-for-1-ed is worse than getting "0-for-0-ed" in this deck. So what does the Carpet solve broadly? Seems like a theoretical upgrade to Cab Rit against graveyard hate, and I can imagine its turning really nuts if the game goes on for long, but I don't understand its appeal over, say, more anti-permanent cards like Disfigure or K-Grip.

The cards I've had my eye on including are Flusterstorm; City of Solitude; Chrome Mox (a second one for goes-fast); Daze (in greater numbers); and maybe Echoing Truth, SExtraction, or Massacre. So I guess I'm wondering what people think those cards would solve that my current board doesn't address, if anything.

Daze seems interesting, but I feel like it's not going to solve as many problems as it looks like it might. We'd have to be all in on speed to make it work, and having to bounce a land can slow down the combo if we don't have access to LED. I'm also a bit reluctant to run countermagic more generally because it works at cross-purposes with LED.

Any and all advice and criticism is welcome!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

That makes literal zero sense. By that logic, let's just run one each of Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual and LED, because additional copies don't offer anything new.

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Its a matter of diminishing returns at some point, just like the number of Tutors in the deck. Its not like you run 4 Dark Petition because "more is more".

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

At the risk of jumping into the middle of a flamewar

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I am not interrested in anyrhing like that :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'm wondering about whether I've got an appropriate setup for dealing with a variety of matchups; this list is tuned a bit for my metagame, which isn't a big one and lacks a number of difficult matchups (Grixis, Loam, Reanimator; not much fast combo, either, because I was the fast-combo guy until I got Storm together). Hurkyl's and Daze are experimental/hedging.

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Considered Echoing Truth to deal with Hatebears as well as Chalice & Friends to have more overlap in slots rather than splitting CoV & H.Recall to deal with the stuff seperately?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Considered Echoing Truth to deal with Hatebears as well as Chalice & Friends to have more overlap in slots rather than splitting CoV & H.Recall to deal with the stuff seperately?

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Heya! Thanks for the quick response!

I had considered that for a while. I used to run an Echoing Truth and 2x Hurkyl's right after Oath hit the scene. I felt like Truth wasn't as strong in the Eldrazi matchup (esp. against varied hate, like 1 Chalice 1 Thorn) as Hurk was, and I've essentially been using Chains for a different purpose, which is practical spot removal for cmc1. I might change my setup to incorporate Truth instead of one or the other at some point, but I feel like each of those cards is optimal in a different set of matchups, and at least a bit better than Truth in either. What's been your experience with Truth? Do you ever wish you could put something else in the 'board instead? I'm glad you focused on the card, because I've had trouble wrapping my head around the situations in which it's optimal.

I also like Chain as an occasional means to speed up our combo without having to incorporate added awkward cards like multiple Chrome Moxes; over the weekend, I remember that having a Chain, a Petal, a Tendrils, and rituals was enough to get me to Tendrils for 20 (18? Lethal, in any case) without PiF, tutors, or LED. I know it's got its weaknesses, but it's done a lot of work for me. I'd definitely keep at least 1 in the 'board.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Heya! Thanks for the quick response!

I had considered that for a while. I used to run an Echoing Truth and 2x Hurkyl's right after Oath hit the scene. I felt like Truth wasn't as strong in the Eldrazi matchup (esp. against varied hate, like 1 Chalice 1 Thorn) as Hurk was, and I've essentially been using Chains for a different purpose, which is practical spot removal for cmc1. I might change my setup to incorporate Truth instead of one or the other at some point, but I feel like each of those cards is optimal in a different set of matchups, and at least a bit better than Truth in either. What's been your experience with Truth? Do you ever wish you could put something else in the 'board instead? I'm glad you focused on the card, because I've had trouble wrapping my head around the situations in which it's optimal.

I also like Chain as an occasional means to speed up our combo without having to incorporate added awkward cards like multiple Chrome Moxes; over the weekend, I remember that having a Chain, a Petal, a Tendrils, and rituals was enough to get me to Tendrils for 20 (18? Lethal, in any case) without PiF, tutors, or LED. I know it's got its weaknesses, but it's done a lot of work for me. I'd definitely keep at least 1 in the 'board.

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I have not had the chance to test E.Truth myself so far, but can only express my disappointment with H.Recall outside of matchups with pure artifact hate. I saw that Truth does a good job for other storm pilots in its versatility to be a tool against hatebears and enchantments and not just versus Eldrazi, freeing additional sideboard slots for Miracles, so i mentioned it. For me versatility is more important than having optimal solutions.

I am familiar with the CoV as a storm engine from my days in vintage, but in legacy we can do a lot of similar shenanigans of natural stormcount by chaining chantrips.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I have not had the chance to test E.Truth myself so far, but can only express my disappointment with H.Recall outside of matchups with pure artifact hate. I saw that Truth does a good job for other storm pilots in its versatility to be a tool against hatebears and enchantments and not just versus Eldrazi, freeing additional sideboard slots for Miracles, so i mentioned it. For me versatility is more important than having optimal solutions.

I am familiar with the CoV as a storm engine from my days in vintage, but in legacy we can do a lot of similar shenanigans of natural stormcount by chaining chantrips.

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Thanks again for getting back to me so soon!

Agreed regarding Hurkyl's; I cut back to a singleton because I wasn't getting any crossover value out of it in my meta, but at Worcester I did face a Chalice deck and wish I'd seen it. I do like the idea of running at least one Echoing Truth a lot, and the other thing I'd considered was replacing Disfigure with it (that might mess up the U/B balance in the deck a bit, but I don't think one more blue card would make that much of a difference). The main reason I still haven't brought it in against hatebears is that I just felt like having a cmc1 spell to deal with them was better than a cmc2, especially given that the chief offenders are legendary anyway so we wouldn't get to "echo" anything. Getting around Chalice is pretty huge, though.

I do agree that there's a lot to be said for versatility over raw strength, and that's one reason I've been hemming and hawing so much over whether my 'board's built well.

Another thing I've been wondering is whether it's worth it to try to get some extra use out of my Abrupt Decays. I'm reluctant to board them in because I've only got one green source, and if I can get my hands on a Bayou sometime this century, I'll probably start to use them more. What's everyone's feeling about the crossover value of Decay? Would be great to cut Disfigures entirely. At this point, unless I'm fighting Miracles, I only 'board in one Decay at most.

I realize it would've been impossible for me to hit storm 18 with the Chain and the cards I listed; as I think about it, I think the opponent had also Thoughtseized in the game I managed to nat-Tendrils him, so I think I only hit storm 8 (incl. Tendrils). I'll try to be more meticulous about not letting my Chain of Vapor fanboyism take over my analyses in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Thanks again for getting back to me so soon!

Agreed regarding Hurkyl's; I cut back to a singleton because I wasn't getting any crossover value out of it in my meta, but at Worcester I did face a Chalice deck and wish I'd seen it. I do like the idea of running at least one Echoing Truth a lot, and the other thing I'd considered was replacing Disfigure with it (that might mess up the U/B balance in the deck a bit, but I don't think one more blue card would make that much of a difference). The main reason I still haven't brought it in against hatebears is that I just felt like having a cmc1 spell to deal with them was better than a cmc2, especially given that the chief offenders are legendary anyway so we wouldn't get to "echo" anything. Getting around Chalice is pretty huge, though.

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From a theoretical point of view, the 15-lands-standard should be enough to build a board against Thalia/Teeg/etc. so you should be able to cut the disfigue here, if thats your worry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Another thing I've been wondering is whether it's worth it to try to get some extra use out of my Abrupt Decays. I'm reluctant to board them in because I've only got one green source, and if I can get my hands on a Bayou sometime this century, I'll probably start to use them more. What's everyone's feeling about the crossover value of Decay? Would be great to cut Disfigures entirely. At this point, unless I'm fighting Miracles, I only 'board in one Decay at most.

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Decay is good if you expect stuff like Meddling Mage or annoying stuff in general which gets paired with countermagic. Due to the fall of Stoneblade, there is not too much overlap of annoying permanents and counterspells recently. I'd board them against decks like Lands too to have more outs to Chalice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I realize it would've been impossible for me to hit storm 18 with the Chain and the cards I listed; as I think about it, I think the opponent had also Thoughtseized in the game I managed to nat-Tendrils him, so I think I only hit storm 8 (incl. Tendrils). I'll try to be more meticulous about not letting my Chain of Vapor fanboyism take over my analyses in the future.

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I don't dare to comment on that particular match. Its just a more general approach, once I realize that yardhate and serious damage are about to hit me. Playing against Elves might be an example if Symbiote + DRS + Nettle start dropping your life quick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

From a theoretical point of view, the 15-lands-standard should be enough to build a board against Thalia/Teeg/etc. so you should be able to cut the disfigue here, if thats your worry.

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Ok! I'll give Echoing Truth a go in its stead. I like having 1-cmc cards over 2s, but switching one slot shouldn't be a big deal. I also like having something to answer token-barfing decks like Belcher and Dredge, so that seems like a good slot for it. I might try switching the Badlands back to basic Island if I do this, but I'm not sure if that's what I really want at this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Decay is good if you expect stuff like Meddling Mage or annoying stuff in general which gets paired with countermagic. Due to the fall of Stoneblade, there is not too much overlap of annoying permanents and counterspells recently. I'd board them against decks like Lands too to have more outs to Chalice

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I've noticed a similar phenomenon re: Stoneblade.

Incidentally, as regards a previous discussion about business configurations, Stoneblade was a matchup I felt like I couldn't win when I was running 2x Petition, but when I switched one to a second PiF, it cleared right up. The Stoneblade player's definitely better at Magic than I am, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't dare to comment on that particular match. Its just a more general approach, once I realize that yardhate and serious damage are about to hit me. Playing against Elves might be an example if Symbiote + DRS + Nettle start dropping your life quick

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It's interesting you bring up Elves. For some reason I've been having a rough time against it recently; preboard, it's not usually that difficult to beat (and we're a tad faster), but once they bring in Thoughtseize, Therapy, and Gaddock/Ruric Thar, it gets a lot tougher. I lost to it at Worcester (as I recall, Natural Order for Ruric Thar sealed the deal), and one of my buddies who plays Elves a lot clotheslined me the other day when we were sparring. Some of that was poor draws on my part, but he just kept pumping creatures to the point that I couldn't find any fast outs. Disfigure also didn't do much because he built up his board so quickly. I remember Massacre to have been really useful in the matchup, but I'm wondering whether there's something we can use that's a bit cheaper because I don't like throwing away rituals. How have you and other people been siding against Elves?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

It's interesting you bring up Elves. For some reason I've been having a rough time against it recently; preboard, it's not usually that difficult to beat (and we're a tad faster), but once they bring in Thoughtseize, Therapy, and Gaddock/Ruric Thar, it gets a lot tougher. I lost to it at Worcester (as I recall, Natural Order for Ruric Thar sealed the deal), and one of my buddies who plays Elves a lot clotheslined me the other day when we were sparring. Some of that was poor draws on my part, but he just kept pumping creatures to the point that I couldn't find any fast outs. Disfigure also didn't do much because he built up his board so quickly. I remember Massacre to have been really useful in the matchup, but I'm wondering whether there's something we can use that's a bit cheaper because I don't like throwing away rituals. How have you and other people been siding against Elves?

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The combination of Discard and DRS postboard look a lot like Shardless on paper and occasionally you get also slapped by Hatebears (Teeg/Thalia instead of Shardless' Meddling Mages) or Nullrods, so giving clear advice is as hard as beating the combo of discard/yardhate/hatebears in general. Some generic removal (Decay/Bounce) sure isn't bad to deal with Ruric/Teeg/Thalia/Nullrod/DRS/etc. I suspect most storm players managed to lose to Elves here and there either due to Teeg, Ruric, tun two glimpse combo or due to their sideboard

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Some generic removal (Decay/Bounce) sure isn't bad to deal with Ruric/Teeg/Thalia/Nullrod/DRS/etc. I suspect most storm players managed to lose to Elves here and there either due to Teeg, Ruric, tun two glimpse combo or due to their sideboard

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Yeah, that sounds right to me. I've gotten raced off of slow hands or lost to their sideboard cards most of the time. Feels a bit coin-flippy to me, though I think we're generally favored there because we can go nuts on turn 1.

Has anyone tested multiple Chrome Moxes to boost speed? I've got one in my mainboard, but I feel like it's a risky card to have in multiples. Just wondering whether there's anything we can do to up our speed for counter-less matchups without losing too much consistency.

On a different note, I noticed I have a habit of writing a lot about a card on this thread, but I type the wrong card-name (see above regarding Carpet). To reiterate, the problem with considering Carpet to be Waste-proof is that we need to throw down a Dual or a mana rock to cast it, so we're still open to Wasteland or dumping a permanent to get another permanent. Maybe a better one, but we're often still expending a card to get a card.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Yeah, that sounds right to me. I've gotten raced off of slow hands or lost to their sideboard cards most of the time. Feels a bit coin-flippy to me, though I think we're generally favored there because we can go nuts on turn 1.

Has anyone tested multiple Chrome Moxes to boost speed? I've got one in my mainboard, but I feel like it's a risky card to have in multiples. Just wondering whether there's anything we can do to up our speed for counter-less matchups without losing too much consistency.

On a different note, I noticed I have a habit of writing a lot about a card on this thread, but I type the wrong card-name (see above regarding Carpet). To reiterate, the problem with considering Carpet to be Waste-proof is that we need to throw down a Dual or a mana rock to cast it, so we're still open to Wasteland or dumping a permanent to get another permanent. Maybe a better one, but we're often still expending a card to get a card.

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Chrome Mox won't save you here as its just 0,5 mana and doesn't help if your opponent can attack your actual acceleration or business (counting cantrips here too). I don't think this matchup is an actual "race" like Burn.dec is, but rather a matter of if they are able to combine X + Y fast enough (discard + damage, DRS + Teeg, 4 mana + NO, etc. ... You get the idea).

@Carpet: Thats one of the issues I talked about. Its not that Daze (which is a natural pair with Wasteland) makes the Turn-1-Carpet any more appealing as an opener. Just my personal opinion

Whoa check out this spicy stuff. Daze maindeck! He took 3rd place in a 286-player tournament. Pretty sure it kind of works somehow. I can't wrap my head around the sideboard. Sylvan Library and TITI?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13168&d=277127&f=LE

14 LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

38 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Daze
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thing in the Ice
2 Xantid Swarm

This week on the "Humans of Magic" podcast -- Jonathan Alexander, creator of Grinding Station:

https://soundcloud.com/humansofmagic...exander-part-1

What started as an innocent discussion about Magic turned into an epic podcast of sorts. Probably the most fun I’ve had so far recording for this show. At one point we asked each other, 2 hours in, if we wanted to stop or keep going. The answer was an encouraging KEEP GOING. And so we did.

There are 3 parts to this talk, that’s how crazy it was. Unfortunately (fortunately?), our hour-long discussion on hip-hop didn’t make the final cut. Jonathan and I probably need to create our own podcast show at some point.

Jonathan’s web site: http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/

Time stamps — Part 1:

[03:21] Intro / the metric system
[06:54] Jonathan's own intro
[08:17] Family background and brief personal history
[12:42] There and back again: university in Berlin
[16:04] Homework? What's that?
[18:09] Memorable teenage moments
[23:06] Amsterdam
[26:37] "It's all upside to not drink, in my eyes."
[30:25] Happiness
[31:13] Earliest gaming experiences
[32:31] Playing Magic for the first time, and getting competitive
[36:32] First Legacy deck
[39:09] Local German Legacy scene
[43:26] Initial breakthroughs in competitive Magic, and Mental Misstep
[46:33] All time favorite decks
[47:58] An ode to Canadian Threshold
[51:44] The art of quoting stuff out of context / trolls
[53:08] Good stuff deck vs. tempo deck / why he doesn't play Grixis delver
[56:16] Incredible run at Bazaar of Moxen with Canadian Threshold
[1:05:04] “Don’t be afraid to use your cards as Lightning Bolts.”
[1:07:17] Starting to play Storm and the beginnings of Grinding Station

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Can you please share your side? How many AD do you exactly side in? Thank you in advice (anyway do you have 2 ToA main or do you add 1 ToA from side?)

Anyway yes, I side in Flusterstorm mainly to deal with CT but also because I find it good in general in this match up since it evades daze/pierce. Why do you find it bad in this match up? I mean it still our only answer to Probe+Cabal besides Brainstorm.
Carpet comes in as a simply upgrade of Rain which is imo really bad in this match up considering his land denial and his pressure. I think it's always been considered good vs grixis and I've seen many people using it in this match up. I don't agree with you on this point.
I don't keep SDT because I consider it too slow in this match up but I'll try to keep it and side in some decays.

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List (SB varies, MD is the same for 2 years except -Tarn +Trop recently - used to play 2G in the SB)

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tropical Island

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony


61

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Karakas
1 Bayou
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Ancient Grudge

2-3 AD, also experimented with Extirpate - left me undecided if it's good or not

I used to play this plan even before the Dig was banned, as I know that Cabal Therapy also plays Flusterstorm against Grixis so I had a testing session about 20 games before the last GP to test it, the Flusterstorm was exactly as I expected it to be so got back to my original plan

just few statements/arguments/observations:
- Flusterstorm is passive - you need to keep it up thus you are inefficient playing the deck/using time - that's exactly what you do to your opponents by threatening them to die if they tap out, so if you keep up U T1 you don't cantrip lets say opponent plays DRS = you're losing unless you Opponent does exactly what you need...
- The Silence illusion - I used to be told you're disadvantaged if your opponent plays silence in a Storm pseudo-mirror match, in fact the opposite was true, you wont be CTed for protection but you'll end up with Silence/Flusterstorm in hand for lategame
- let's say Opp played the DRS = He can pay the Flusterstorm T2, it also can be played around lategame this way as well as ignore flusterstorm with cast+flashback
- 1st CT isn't usually that dangerous
- and you have to have it likely having 2 against their 4(8)... +it's a terrible topdeck unless you can make ToA in hand work but you build up against discard and without SDT (but with their lifeloss), or need to maneuver Opponent into some poor plays

-so I don't plan to answer GP+CT (except I do with the Extripate), unless paired with SE it's not that bad... if they have the perfect hand they win, and I win if I do... it's nothing that makes the MU fantactic but I like AD as a plan against Delver MUs because it lets you face their best hand while being good against medium hands buying you time or getting rid of Null rod/DRS like permanents... you risk them keeping a desperate aggro hand but it's less likely...
-I keep 2 ToA because to my surprise I found out I've won this way a lot in the MU, the GP and SE costs a some life and can capitalize on that SDT... GP+CT+SE->ToA hasnt happened relevant number of times and I was still able to win with EtW because the CT did not slow me down
- Extripate - kind of mixed feelings - in theory it's not good as it suffers similar problems like Flusterstorm except was real good sometimes though but I'd advice against plaing it in the end... just the AD
-since facing a discard deck I prefer to have all the cantrips and SDTs

Carpet
- first lets say I also do not think RoF is not good enough to be 8th ritual and is too luxurious to have it as 9th so no upgrades for me
- if you have seen people play X in MU Y means nothing unless you know why they do it... because majority of people does not know what they are doing since their initial argument was the same as yours - people play it
- I did not pass for me in Canadian Threshold MU while I'd not do that I can understand some would bring it in - could it be better against a deck with similar tempo suite + discard and DRS? - no if even 1 was true
- why? because only the mana is not worth the investment - I have to say, yes, the Sol ring is sometimes bad, early game it gets countered or is played around (very well with DRS) lategame I'd prefer actual cards (ritual is better because it does storm)

of course this is not a universal experience - sometimes Carpet would be great, sometimes Flusterstorm would be great, but in the long run I think (= I have seen on myself playing it/watching others play) it slows you down more than not having it at all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .Ix

Whoa check out this spicy stuff. Daze maindeck! He took 3rd place in a 286-player tournament. Pretty sure it kind of works somehow. I can't wrap my head around the sideboard. Sylvan Library and TITI?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13168&d=277127&f=LE

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Haha I love these crazy japanese guys... I've tested Titi a lot - it kind of works but the "creatures in Storm" dilemma, the Library is just terrible imo, btw. I think XS is a wasted slot Titi has it covered to some extent