[Deck] Merfolk

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And as a control player, I would love for you guys to cut Adept, and not run Mental Misstep because they are terrible cards.
Did people just say Adept is the worst creature in the deck

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If you're thinking about cutting a Silvergill Adept then you do not understand the deck you're playing

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Which creature is the worst creature in the deck then? Lord of Atlantis? Reejerey? Commander?Cursecatcher? I didn't say I was going to cut adept, I said I was going to test cutting 1 for 4 misteps. Do you know how much card advantage standstill is?

I didn't say it was right I said I was going to test it... But if you think there is a worse creature in the deck then Silvergill Adept then you are bad.


For all we know mental misstep is going to suck

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Originally Posted by yoshencranz

I'm not sure that Mental Mistep is an auto 4 of. I can see it being a 2-3 of in the place of spell pierce, but even then, they serve different purposes and with MM giving you a bonus against bad matchups (Zoo, Gobos) but not having much value vs Affinity, and combo.

personally, when all is said and done. I bet we all will still be playing Spell pierce. Not that i dont want MM to be good. I do.

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You're wrong, for one simple reason. Spell Pierce costs 1. Mental Misstep costs 0.

Beyond that, the two matchups you list MM being weak against both contain targets. Affinity can't beat you unless it outspeeds you, which it does. A lot. Being able to stop that Springleaf Drum or Signal Pest? Pretty sexy. Being able to hit a postboard Thoughtseize aiming for your Energy Flux? Even better. And if they don't drop one, it pitches to Force.

Combo, even moreso. Find me a strong combo deck in Legacy (Excluding like, Forgemaster combo) that doesn't pack 12 or more 1-drops. Go on. I'll wait.

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(EDIT: And as was just pointed out to me, let's pretend Enchantress doesn't count.)

See?

And before you argue that MM doesn't shut them down, I'll grant you that. But you still get Force, Daze, and Catcher. And you don't have to leave mana untapped anymore, so your clock improves.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

(EDIT: And as was just pointed out to me, let's pretend Enchantress doesn't count.)

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Enchantress does have 10+ 1cc spells on their decks. They're Elephant Grass and those enchant-land cards. And Mirri's Guile.

I'm beginning to think I would much rather play MM instead of Spell Pierce for the Combo matches. Merfolk is already overloaded with taxing counters. Plus MM is much better against Aggro decks than Spell Pierce is. I'll prolly play something like 2-4. Not sure. Probably the first time I'm going to change the deck in 6 months.

Could I see your list Taco? I know you incorporate (or have incorporated) a couple of Sowers, and I believe a pair of Kiras main. I'd like to see your sideboard as well; I'm still torn on the Flux/Rod debate.

Why wouldn't you just play Null Rod? It comes down faster than Energy Flux, you can't play around it, and it seems much more powerful. It also is good against Combo where something like Energy Flux isn't. If you wanted to hose artifact Rod seems the best.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Why wouldn't you just play Null Rod?

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Because it shuts down Aether Vial, I guess.

Energy Flux isn't much better, since it also effects your own Aether Vial. I'd rather go with the most powerful option here.

Really it's more of a question about speed, I suppose. Also, Rod is more proactive where Flux is reactive.

I don't think either are worth running. Seems like the artifact craze has kinda fell of a little bit, probably because of people packing hate and the combo. Not worth it unless you think you will see affinity 2+ in a tournament.

Hey Dudes,

Now in more aggressive meta I tried succesful! the not very popular red splash.

A friend of mine and me tried the deck during a 62 player tournament with great success. I went 4-2 and he went 5-0-1 while I lost my first game to badluck and the other against affinity.
The other games, GW Goodstuff, UBR Dreadnought, NO SnT and Elves where no problem at all with the help of burn.

The Decklist:

4 Silvergill Adept - the worst merfolk to be honest
4 Lord of Atlantis - basic
4 Cursecatcher - the perfect controll beater, i love him more and more!
4 Merrow Reejerey - basic
4 Coralhelm Commander - still too mana intensive

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Vial
4 Lightning Bolt - just great
4 Fire // Ice - Best card of the day!

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
6 Blue Fetch
3 Island

SB

3 Spell Pierce - basic
3 Red Elemental Blast - blue = autowin
3 Price of Progess - This will be my only change in the sideboard...
3 Relic of Progenitus - ever burned a goyf or knight in merfolk? you'll love it!
3 Submerge - great


Price of Progress was the try to change my gameplan to burn but it never worked out.
If affinity becomes more popular I would play Energy Flux or Meltdown.

What would you prefer?

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Originally Posted by dlg

Hey Dudes,

Now in more aggressive meta I tried succesful! the not very popular red splash.

A friend of mine and me tried the deck during a 62 player tournament with great success. I went 4-2 and he went 5-0-1 while I lost my first game to badluck and the other against affinity.
The other games, GW Goodstuff, UBR Dreadnought, NO SnT and Elves where no problem at all with the help of burn.

The Decklist:

4 Silvergill Adept - the worst merfolk to be honest
4 Lord of Atlantis - basic
4 Cursecatcher - the perfect controll beater, i love him more and more!
4 Merrow Reejerey - basic
4 Coralhelm Commander - still too mana intensive

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Vial
4 Lightning Bolt - just great
4 Fire // Ice - Best card of the day!

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
6 Blue Fetch
3 Island

SB

3 Spell Pierce - basic
3 Red Elemental Blast - blue = autowin
3 Price of Progess - This will be my only change in the sideboard...
3 Relic of Progenitus - ever burned a goyf or knight in merfolk? you'll love it!
3 Submerge - great


Price of Progress was the try to change my gameplan to burn but it never worked out.
If affinity becomes more popular I would play Energy Flux or Meltdown.

What would you prefer?

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I used to run a list nearly identical to yours but I ran 4 Grim Lavamancers in place of your Fire/Ices. I never lost the mirror, that's for sure. Affinity and Goblins were much easier to beat as well.

Yeah like Scatman said MM hits elephant grass against enchantress which is HUGE. Not exaggerating, them landing a grass on the field is a nightmare for this deck since it buys enchantress a lot of time against us. IMO misstep is better than spell pierce simply because it's 0 mana. And it also improves the zoo and goblins MUs a bit whereas spell pierce against those decks is awkward to say the least especially on the draw.

Flux is pretty sick also because it pitches to FoW; but some people board that out against affinity because it's meh. Null rod doesn't stop affinity cold though if they have landed a tezzeret rod does nothing. Energy flux is so sick against that deck though it reads "I am a one sided pernicious deed that activates every turn that doesn't cost anything more than the initial 3 mana." Then again null rod is a little more broad in its applications since it is amazing against combo be it painter stone, storm, or even spiral tide with candelabra's not that that MU is already in merfolks favor.

And MM hits so many of combo's cards in any combo deck. It hits candelabra, dark rit, rite of flame, cantrips, there are so many cards that it stops. It's a lot better against combo than spell pierce IMO especially since it costs 0 mana.

taco- you proved me wrong. I'm man enough to admit.

I guess all this speculating means we really just need to proxy them up and start playing to really see its true effect on Legacy. It is a free counter afterall and that alone shouldnt be taken lightly.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

You misunderstand; perhaps you haven't seen very many successful merfolk lists. Running a fifth manland is a very common play, and Mishra's Factory is the only realistic option. This let's you leverage Standstill even more. There are 60 cards in the deck, no twenty--you can cut a non-land card for a land. So you could do -1 Daze, +1 Mishra's Factory, for instance.

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I understand, but I'm italian and I didn't express the concept well. So I think Tacosnape resposed you very well. The problem is that another manlands isn't necessary to our gameplan. In fact, another colorless mana land can auto-screw our manabase, and I think that 12 island aren't enough, so if I'd want to add a land, I'll add another island.

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Originally Posted by Horsy

I understand, but I'm italian and I didn't express the concept well. So I think Tacosnape resposed you very well. The problem is that another manlands isn't necessary to our gameplan. In fact, another colorless mana land can auto-screw our manabase, and I think that 12 island aren't enough, so if I'd want to add a land, I'll add another island.

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Adding a land cannot possibly make a manabase worse.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Could I see your list Taco? I know you incorporate (or have incorporated) a couple of Sowers, and I believe a pair of Kiras main. I'd like to see your sideboard as well; I'm still torn on the Flux/Rod debate.

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Gladly.

13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Coralhelm Commander
3 Merfolk Sovereign
1 Sower of Temptation

SB:
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Submerge
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Spell Pierce

I prefer Energy Flux to Null Rod, and I'll tell you why. Energy Flux will help you deal with large scary artifact creatures already on the board. Null Rod won't. Period. A 7/2 Cranial Plating'd Ornithopter is still going to kill you with a Null Rod on the board. A pair of Myr Enforcers and a Frogmite might still get there. Same with large Master of Etheriums, or Lodestone Golems.

If there needs to be a second reason, it's that Energy Flux is way better in multiples than Null Rod. Two Null Rods do nothing. Two Energy Fluxes either stack, or the first one pitches to Force of Will.

The one random Spell Pierce isn't as random as it looks. It's better than the Sower against combo or control. If I wanted a second bad enough I'd cut a Jitte (Which could also be Submerge #3 in Knight-heavy metagames)

I don't run Kira anymore because Mental Misstep handles most everything I want Kira to handle. Bolts, Lavamancers, STP's, Paths, etc. I also think she's weak against most of what I think will be the format's top decks. However, if the metagame shifts, she'll come back.

Energy Flux also gives that PainterStone deck quite the headache. Have you seen how much of their mana is artifact-based?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Energy Flux also gives that PainterStone deck quite the headache. Have you seen how much of their mana is artifact-based?

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Depends on the build. Around here, the smarter Painter Stone players skip the Show/Emrakul combo in board in favor of more Red Blasts and Llawan for the Llawan/Painter combo. Neither of these are things Merfolk wants to see, but at least Mental Misstep is fantastic in the matchup too.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Gladly.

13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Coralhelm Commander
3 Merfolk Sovereign
1 Sower of Temptation

SB:
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Submerge
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Spell Pierce

I prefer Energy Flux to Null Rod, and I'll tell you why. Energy Flux will help you deal with large scary artifact creatures already on the board. Null Rod won't. Period. A 7/2 Cranial Plating'd Ornithopter is still going to kill you with a Null Rod on the board. A pair of Myr Enforcers and a Frogmite might still get there. Same with large Master of Etheriums, or Lodestone Golems.

If there needs to be a second reason, it's that Energy Flux is way better in multiples than Null Rod. Two Null Rods do nothing. Two Energy Fluxes either stack, or the first one pitches to Force of Will.

The one random Spell Pierce isn't as random as it looks. It's better than the Sower against combo or control. If I wanted a second bad enough I'd cut a Jitte (Which could also be Submerge #3 in Knight-heavy metagames)

I don't run Kira anymore because Mental Misstep handles most everything I want Kira to handle. Bolts, Lavamancers, STP's, Paths, etc. I also think she's weak against most of what I think will be the format's top decks. However, if the metagame shifts, she'll come back.

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Eh? If they have the mana to play those creatures they also have the mana to pay for them.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Energy Flux also gives that PainterStone deck quite the headache. Have you seen how much of their mana is artifact-based?

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Not quite, on my way to 1st at SCG L.A. with Painter Stone, in two matchups Energy Flux was brought in against me and even with FoW/REB in my hand I let it resolve because I wasn't afraid of it. It could be played around which I did, and I used welder tricks, with energy flux's triggered ability on the stack, during the upkeep I would not pay for a artifact and let it go to the GY, then weld out one that I haven't payed for during upkeep yet, and weld the original back in. Even though the welded artifact is there during the upkeep I didn't have to pay for energy flux because it acts as a new permanent and wasn't there during the beginning of upkeep to trigger Energy Flux. As Tacosnape said, there's also REB and I could've destroyed Energy Flux if it became a problem.

Ach! Put down by the man himself. I saw it played against a local pilot, and Relic was brought in as well to stop Welder shenanigans. So my info is purely anecdotal. I also know it could be played around, but it seemed be giving the other player a very difficult time of it.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Ach! Put down by the man himself. I saw it played against a local pilot, and Relic was brought in as well to stop Welder shenanigans. So my info is purely anecdotal. I also know it could be played around, but it seemed be giving the other player a very difficult time of it.

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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you and like Energy Flux too, I run it in my Merfolk list also since it helps so much against one of our worst matchups, Affinity. I was only mentioning it against the Painter matchup, before I playtested against it I thought it was going to be a beating also. After playtesting against it and in actual tournaments, I would counter Lord of Atlantis before I counter Energy Flux. But then again, in those matchups post-board I expected Energy Flux or Null Rod and played accordingly, baiting the folk's wastelands with the artifact lands, and accumalate as much non-artifact mana. If I was in a tough position where most available mana were artifacts I would definitly counter EF, but then again I would never put myself in that position to begin with.

You know, I hadn't actually put that thought sequence together. I'll definitely take that into account; thanks for the insight. I think, however, that Energy Flux+Relic is far stronger than Flux alone, as Relic fights Welder shenanigans (though there is some anti-synergy with Flux).

Hi guys, I am relatively new to the deck and need some advice regarding what cards to side out against zoo and dredge. I have a bad feeling that I've been siding out the wrong cards in these match ups during play testing. I am running a list similar to Bertoncini.

Thanks!!

ok so this debate ober flux or null rod clearly goes to null rod, reason 1 null rod shuts down your opponentis if they happen to be affinity MUD etc it shuts down there ability to produce mana equip plating, yes they can still play frogmites and myr enforcers but thats why we have counterspells and it also comes down a turn ealie,r also flux dosent effect the combo matchup null rod does, against a TES deck hurts it alot and against a MUD deck it shuts off metalworker grim monollith and other goodies i have played MUD myself for a time and against flux and still won by making insane amounts of mana. nul rod is just more versitile and gives you resilence to other decks not just one, it also hurts painter/stone


Proper spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure are required, especially in the DTB Forum.

--4eak

So if people haven't gotten a chance to look yet merfolk put two players into the top 8 of SCG Boston. One of the pilots lost in the quarterfinals (didn't see what he played against) and Bertoncini took first.

@Antonio :
General rule VS dredge : Side out standstill and kira. Side in your gy hate and spellpierce (or misstep)
General rule VS Zoo : Side out standstill and either daze or FOW. If you are on the play, side out FOW, on the draw, side out daze.
Kira, REB, submerge, mid harness really shine in this matchup.
Hope this helps

Bertoncini doesn't run Standstill, man. That said, I'd board out all my countermagic before dudes (maybe Cursecatchers before Daze on the play, though)

So I'm picking up the fishes again and was looking for some input on boarding. Let's say assuming the Bertocini sideboard.

How would you board against:
Zoo
Goblins
Mirror
Team America
Counterbalance
Bant aggro
Elves

Equally on the topic of 'I don't want to do real thought about this myself right now'...

So, what's everybody cutting for Mental Misstep? Main-deck or sideboard?

I'll be testing Taco's list, as I am lazy right now and concerned with Goblins. But I will say I intend to run the full 4 in the main, whatever list I eventually settle on.

I have been having a pretty hard time with stoneforge mystic, that card is so good vs merfolk. Equipment just wrecks us, what cards do you guys bring in vs stoneforge/equipment. I run 3 kira's main which gives me great success vs zoo.. until they get stoneforge. I either need echoing truth or submerge in hand or I just lose

@SlopeeJ - SoFI really sucks, for Merfolk anyway... I run 3 Kira also in the main. Do you bring in Jitte with Kira and how many? What is your current list before MM? Maybe some Pithing Needle could help...

well I have been testing with 4 mental misstep for 2 days straight and I have to say I just don't know. I want to kill myself when it isn't in my opening 7 and then I rip 1 or 2 or 4 of the top..... I know it has only been a couple of days of testing and on magic workstation which is good for 1 out of 100 opps being descent but I really don't know. Unless I am countering lackey or lavamancer... BOMBS I would much rather have a Merfolk lord in my hand then spend 2 life to counter my opps cantrips or even tops. Sure their have been occasions where it was good, but would I have still won those games if it was a lord instead, esp if it it was just a top or what ever? I am actually pretty frustrated writing this post haha.

Who has been testing it, not theory actual testing vs decent opps?

Shough those are good questions, I have tested 4 missteps with standstills and not with standstills. I usually bring in 2 jitte when I side out kira, which actually seems just to be the mirror. I think jitte is bad vs zoo because the same problem exists of them just bolting our guys and vs goblins it isn't an auto win as most say. With them having mana denial, tutors for gemplam and pile driver to block jitte. The problem with needle is pridemage and stoneforge I mean demonic tutor for what ever equipment we don't needle

I know Alex B has been doing good with Merfolk but I pretty much refuse to play merfolk without standstill and 3 kira. So obviously something has to be cut if I want to run misstep. I hate running 22 lands, I want to run 20

So my initial testing has been misstep is okay, 3 of maybe. As far as everyone saying legacy is 56 cards now... I really doubt goblins and zoo will run this card. Seems like a control players dream until we don't draw vial and then beat them with commander...... Testing this card made me realize (again) why merfolk doesn't run conditional counterspells.. Even if they are free


But I'm no pro and it's 645 in the morning, would love to hear peoples thoughts on actual testing


(Edit) Not sure if conditional is the right word because I guess daze and spell pierce are conditional, but I can't think of the word that should be there.
Spell snare is bad in merfolk for reason. It will come to me or help me out

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

well I have been testing with 4 mental misstep for 2 days straight and I have to say I just don't know. I want to kill myself when it isn't in my opening 7 and then I rip 1 or 2 or 4 of the top..... I know it has only been a couple of days of testing and on magic workstation which is good for 1 out of 100 opps being descent but I really don't know. Unless I am countering lackey or lavamancer... BOMBS I would much rather have a Merfolk lord in my hand then spend 2 life to counter my opps cantrips or even tops. Sure their have been occasions where it was good, but would I have still won those games if it was a lord instead, esp if it it was just a top or what ever? I am actually pretty frustrated writing this post haha.

Who has been testing it, not theory actual testing vs decent opps?

Shough those are good questions, I have tested 4 missteps with standstills and not with standstills. I usually bring in 2 jitte when I side out kira, which actually seems just to be the mirror. I think jitte is bad vs zoo because the same problem exists of them just bolting our guys and vs goblins it isn't an auto win as most say. With them having mana denial, tutors for gemplam and pile driver to block jitte. The problem with needle is pridemage and stoneforge I mean demonic tutor for what ever equipment we don't needle

I know Alex B has been doing good with Merfolk but I pretty much refuse to play merfolk without standstill and 3 kira. So obviously something has to be cut if I want to run misstep. I hate running 22 lands, I want to run 20

So my initial testing has been misstep is okay, 3 of maybe. As far as everyone saying legacy is 56 cards now... I really doubt goblins and zoo will run this card. Seems like a control players dream until we don't draw vial and then beat them with commander...... Testing this card made me realize (again) why merfolk doesn't run conditional counterspells.. Even if they are free


But I'm no pro and it's 645 in the morning, would love to hear peoples thoughts on actual testing


(Edit) Not sure if conditional is the right word because I guess daze and spell pierce are conditional, but I can't think of the word that should be there.
Spell snare is bad in merfolk for reason. It will come to me or help me out

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How has your testing been against decks which play stp, bolt, and for that matter, thoughtseize, duress, etc?

That's where the card has been shining in my limited mws testing: protecting your threats, for free, without losing tempo or card advantage, and also stopping turn 1 vials on the draw. Also what about opposing missteps?

I think lists with Standstill will be better with Mental Misstep. We all know that Standstill sucks when your opponents drops a really good first turn play (Wild Nacatl, Goblin Lackey, AEther Vial to name a few) but if you can prevent anything significant before you drop your Standstill, you actually could get the most out of it.

Although, what is the general consensus with the Standstill List?

I really want to play standstill along misstep but the problem I see is that if you take a list like Bertoncini's most likely you end up cutting 2x kira, 1x spell pierce, 1 sower for 4x MM. What gets cut to make room for standstills too? Sovereigns could go but I like the rest of my lords, would 3 MM 3 Daze 4 FOW be enough counters to support standstill? I still have to test that set up but unless MM really slows down the format I'm not sure I like Standstill.

I was thinking of this build:


12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 AEther Vial
3 Standstill

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce


More permission spells to stop the opponent from anything game-changing? Its less agressive than Bertoncini's list but it has more outs when your opponents try to play something you dont like.

Mental Misstep makes us even more able to just tempo people out of the game, and in this regard Standstill might seem like a poor choice. Following this logic is a perfectly valid route to take the deck.

However:

Mental Misstep increases our ability to play a Standstill on a sympathetic board position. Personally, I can't recall a game in which I played and resolved even a single Standstill and lost. Thus, my lists tend to be focused on leveraging the card.