It was done a while back to help people spell it correctly. A lot of non-English speaking people would make the same mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
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It was done a while back to help people spell it correctly. A lot of non-English speaking people would make the same mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Quote from Adam Barnello's article for CB (talking about Inkmoth Nexus):
Thoughts?Quote:
This land may single handedly be the reason that Landstill becomes a viable deck again. With it alongside a few Blinkmoth Nexuses, the clock it represents is more significant than most of the comparable ones the deck has tried, and the Blinkmoth has the evasion required to be a reliable threat. If, for example, you hide behind a Moat, or behind a stream of tokens from Elspeth, you’ll have no issue with securing the few turns it would take to end the game efficiently. This should cut down on two major drawbacks (which are related) with playing pure control in Legacy – inability to close a game before losing control, and time (read: clock) management. I have high hopes for Inkmoth. I expect to see it become as much a staple as Mishra’s Factory.
I don't disagree with his statement. He makes valid points. But my thoughts on his issues:
1) Landstill/control decks have problems winning games in time.
This is deck design, and lists without Elspeth run into even more problems. Lists with both Elspeth and Decree tend to win games fast but suffer from lack of removal/permission from the slots taken up by Decree. All again, different lists work for different metas. He is referring to the more commonly played lists of Landstill with 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, which I feel still win games comfortably within time unless they play Top, or get paired with bad matchups (matchups that go to time e.g. Loam, Stax, Enchantress).
Without Elspeth, Inkmouth still takes 10 turns to win, which argubly is as slow as Jace whereas Jace is securing wins. But he has a point that Inkmouth win games in the way Jace does, where Factories aren't since they're swinging on the ground.
2) His points are strengthened in builds playing Moat, i.e. Inkmouth is better in Moat builds than non-Moat builds.
The only issue I see with considering Inkmouth is:
Which lands are you replacing? Knowing Landstill's hideous ratio of colorless lands, you have to cut Wastelands/Ruins/Factories while maintaining a maximum of 7 colorless lands. One can cut Wasteland/Ruins and run 4 Factories/3 Inkmouth or a 3/4 split, or a 3/3/1 Inkmouth/Factory/Ruins split.
However if one is considering cutting Factories for Inkmouth, I think the choice is very debatable and I'm leaning that Factory is still better. Factory is critical in blocking 2/2s or trading with 3/3s (Zoo, Lord'd folks) whereas Inkmouth shrinks them -1/-1. Getting rid of a creature is much more important than shrinking dudes when playing control due to the fact you are evaluating every trade/decision based on card/board-position value. Factories can also grow to 4/4 and remove 3/3s where Inkmouth is unable to do so.
All in all, Factories are still better on the defensive, where Inkmouth is better on the offensive. Whether Landstill needs to go more offensive to win games in time, or lose its defensive position, is based on the choices of cards played in the deck. I'm personally inclined towards a 3/3/1 Factory/Inkmouth/Ruins split running 2 Crucible MD AND 1-2 Moats. I don't think Inkmouth will be as widely played in control lists as he claims (my opinion, I might be wrong) because to support Inkmouth in the format, you need to make it worthwhile, i.e. running Moat/Crucibles, otherwise it is a decent land that questions the selection of the manabase (a critical question).
Bulk of the time, control decks like Landstill have to focus on the control role. You only start beating when you are in a good position. In fact, the reason Landstill and other control decks go to time is this: It is difficult to stabilize with a control deck in Legacy. There are a lot of powerful strategies that make control difficult to establish in the format. It takes some time and deck design has a big role to do with it. One can argue that playing with Inkmouth will speed things up, but I strongly believe it will only speed up the post-control game up i.e. it'll speed up the game when you have established control. What I feel Landstill needs is a good set of strategy that establishes control faster in the early game (e.g. Countertop does that), so the post-control game can be comfortably won, with or without inkmouth. The bottleneck to the deck's speed isn't really the winning-phase, it's the control/stabilization phase.
Inkmouth is better on the offensive, but fails to establish the defensive/control position which bulk of the time the deck is required to do so. To me, factories are almost uncuttable, but if inkmouth were to be worked in a list, a 3/3/1 Factory/Inkmouth/Ruins list might be the best way in a 24 land build.
EDIT: Forgive my spelling for InkMOTH. Change all Inkmouths to Inkmoths...
I suggested Inkmoth a few pages back. Surely it represents a real clock for the opponent if we have an Elspeth on the table. But Metal is right when says that: fails to establish the defensive/control position. That's why Mishra is still superior. I tried Inkmoth in my build (classic 2/2 PW split) and unless you are in complete control it is useless. And when UWx is in complete control, even a Grizzly Bear could function as a valid win con; so, no use in my opinion for this cool land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
However, tomorrow I'm going to have a tournament, and this is the sideboard I'm testing:
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Meddling Mage
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
1x Enlighened Tutor
2x Ivory Tower
2x Ethersworn Canonist
I like the idea of a lightly ''toolbox-like'' SB with only a singleton Tutor. The fact is that a lone Tutor functions like an added copy of the sideboarded card. For example, playing against burn, it is the 3rd Ivory Tower. Against ANT, represent the 3rd Canonist, against goblins the 4th E Plague. I choose Tormod's possibility to be transmuted over Relic cantrip effect. I hope Ivory tower is enough to stop Burn and Sligh, because I found Pulse of the Fields to be slow and I dislike Leyline as I don't want to mull into one.
I'll test CiP: Red or Story Circle over Ivory Tower if you're worried about the burn matchup. Since youy're playing Ivory Tower, it seems that you are trying narrow hate against a meta of burn. CiP: Red will stomp them (where Ivory Tower dies to Sulfuric Vortex).
CiP: Red is also less dead against Gobs and Zoo, but all in all I feel that if your meta is that burn heavy, bad luck to you playing this deck :P
I don't understand the point of running narrow answers in a deck that needs broad general answers. If Burn is a problem, run Counterbalance.
In your opinion is possible to effectively run Countertop as a side answer? Without changing the cc ratio of your deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Also I was running those Ivory Tower because I couldn't find my CoP: red and I refused to buy another set. By the way, they were useless as I ended 3-3 losing to New Horizon (1st game I screw without any Wasteland or Stifle, 2nd one I flood with 7 lands + 1 Wasted and 1 fetch stifled)
then losing to Merfolk (and I even play 6 StP effect+3 EE, Peacekeeper I'm going to get you) and TezzAffinity ( I hate Affinity, Affinity players and Tezzeret 2.0. First game he gets a turn 2 swinging equipped Frogmite for 10, then cast Tezz 2.0 and +1 him, turn 3 16 damages from Tezz. 2nd game I get raped by turn 2 4/4, 2/2 and 8/2 flyer. Of course I see 1 StP in 2 games. My opponent was a 12 years old kid that never asked me OK? after playing something. I think that Peacekeeper should shine in this MU too.)
I guess Hanni wanted to say that we should all run Counterbalance in the maindeck (like he basicly said in any other of his last posts ).
As for Ivory Tower; well you really need it on the first 2-3 turns to get enought value out of it, so on paper it doesn't look very promising to me. If Burn really takes over your Meta then Hanni is absolutly right, because without Counterbalance we really have a hard time against them. Then again when did Burn ever took over a Legacy Metagame oO?
Losing to Affinity feels kinda odd (btw I know this pattern of playing, my friend does it, too. Throwing his entire hand on the table befor you can even think about countering something), because there threads aren't so scary compared to ours and after they played down there first hand they are stuck in topdeck mode.
I'm not saying everybody should play Counterbalance in the maindeck. I tried saying that before, but it eventually changes the deck into a deck that's not Landstill, so that's not what I was getting at in my post above. I meant running Counterbalance in the sideboard.Quote:
I guess Hanni wanted to say that we should all run Counterbalance in the maindeck (like he basicly said in any other of his last posts ).
Well, Counterbalance is a good sideboard option for Sligh and Fast Zoo, too. Plus it's great against Aggro Loam, 43 Lands, etc... making it a much more versatile sideboard option than Ivory Tower.Quote:
If Burn really takes over your Meta then Hanni is absolutly right, because without Counterbalance we really have a hard time against them. Then again when did Burn ever took over a Legacy Metagame oO?
As far as Merfolk and Affinity is concerned, I've been doing well with 2 Vedalken Shackles in the maindeck and 2 Peackeeper in the sideboard.
If you really hate burn affinity, I recommend CoP: Red, Katakis and Energy Flux in the SB. If you find Energy Flux/Kataki weak against Affinity, please let me know why because I need some insight on beating Kataki if they ever get played in my meta (when I play my stompy deck).
Kataki is going to be much more powerful than Energy Flux against Affinity since it's a turn faster and you don't want to risk a turn dying to affintiy.
I understand the strenght of Countertop in sideboard and in maindeck and there are lots of reasons to run it. But, as every Countertop- based decks player would tell you, you have to build your whole deck around it so you can costantly flip the correct amount of cc1, cc2 and cc3 out of it. I think that my UWx build (wich is very close to the classical 4cc bombs build, as I run 2 Wog effects, 4 Planeswalker, 1 Humility and 2 FoF) can't menage to flip a nice ratio of 1-2-3 drops out of the Counterbalance. Now I'm running 8 4cc cards, plus 4 FoWs , and 27 cards with 0cc (counting 24 lands + 3 EE). This means that there are 39 cards out of the most used legacy mana curve, wich is 1 to 3 cc. And I don't even play a single 3cc drop! That's why I can't afford to play CounterTop, unless I radically change my build adding a combination of Vedalken Shackles, Crucible and maybe Esper Charm, and removing some 4cc cards, and playing less lands. That would lead to a non Landstill build and I'm not interested in it as I like the 8 4cc bombs build.
Affinity. Affinity is a rising deck, so probably It is worth to dedicate SB space to it (though I refuse to do so) the problem is that their gameplan is so fast that you are dead before trying to setup your answers. The only one wich sees to be viable, fast and effective is Kataki. But seiously, who's going to cut 3 slots for 1 MU? And what would you cut? Extirpates, Meddling Mages and Engineered plague are all cards that are more versatile and shine in more than 1 MU.Energy Flux is a bomb against them, and seems fast enough, but the problem is the same: 3 slots in side for one janky deck. I'd prefer running Peacekeeper who is worthwile in at least 2 Matchups: Affinity and Merfolk.
I could'nt play Cop: Red because I did'nt have at the time of the tournament, with no money left to buy some ^^, so I understand that Ivory is a sub par answer but that was all I had at the time I played in the tournament. I'll definitely get 4 of 'em for the sb as I tested them and they were really good, shining not only against Burn but against any deck playing at least 12 burn spells in it.
Maybe a Toolbox-like sb with a full 4 Enlightened Tutors would be better, as lets you play Canonist, Energy Flux, Engineered plague, Circle of Protection: Red, even Circle of Protection: Green if you feel you need it, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus as singletons, leaving enough space for 3 Meddling Mages or 3 Extirpates if you want.
In a more tempo oriented CounterTop deck, blind flips might be important, but in a control shell like Landstill, blind flipping isn't that important. You plan on getting to the deep lategame, and have a bunch of draw effects; you will almost always assemble CounterTop.Quote:
But, as every Countertop- based decks player would tell you, you have to build your whole deck around it so you can costantly flip the correct amount of cc1, cc2 and cc3 out of it. I think that my UWx build (wich is very close to the classical 4cc bombs build, as I run 2 Wog effects, 4 Planeswalker, 1 Humility and 2 FoF) can't menage to flip a nice ratio of 1-2-3 drops out of the Counterbalance. Now I'm running 8 4cc cards, plus 4 FoWs , and 27 cards with 0cc (counting 24 lands + 3 EE). This means that there are 39 cards out of the most used legacy mana curve, wich is 1 to 3 cc. And I don't even play a single 3cc drop!
As a sideboard plan for Landstill decks, it doesn't matter what your curve is like maindeck. Against the matchups where you bring it in against, you can manipulate your curve with your sideboard (by cutting dead cards). For example, you don't care about countering 3cc spells against Burn. Between Standstill, Counterbalance, and Counterspell, you should already have enough 2cc spells postboard without bringing in some other 2cc spells. Between Swords, Brainstorm, and Top, you should have enough 1cc spells, etc. You only need 10 of each (1cc and 2cc) for CounterTop to do what it needs to do against the matchups you'd bring it in against.
It just seems silly to sideboard cards like Ivory Tower to address matchups like Burn when you can sideboard a card that's just as good against that matchup (arguably better), while being really good against other matchups too. Just my 2 cents.
I've said in the last post that I understand how Ivory is sub par and I couldn't find any CoPs for my sb. What do you think is the correct amount of Tops and Counterbalance in SB? 3 and 3? or 4 and 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I like Countertop maindeck. Mostly because Sensei's Divining Top is so good in this deck. You have a lot of removal that is dead against one half of the Meta and a lot of matches where you don't want some of your control elements and just want to find as many Swords as possible. Top has simply been stellar for me and when you already play it you can get Counterbalance as a Bonus. It helps controlling the late game, sometimes just randomly wins and it increases the blue count for FoW that is often becoming dangerously low for me. Overall Counterbalance has been a worthy MD card for me.
But a card I really fell in love with in UW Landstill has been Trinket Mage. It does everything the deck wants: Finding Top when low on cards, finding Explosives against Swarms and finding Needle when you need to get rid of Vial for cheap Mana. It almost always gives you at least some kind of life, too, by chumping or going plowing. Being blue for FoW, being CMC 3 for CB is good and being a random dork that hits for 2 against Combo is nice, too. Post SB Trinket Mage, Crypt, go is also a great play.
I am also currently testing Enlightened Tutor plus Thopter-Combo in the deck and so far I like it.
I know some people are probably pissed with the influx of Countertop in Landstill but I'm one open to such ideas (in fact tested a couple of builds).
But what I want to confirm here, is that people posting Countertop strategies in Landstill the Landstill thread, and I want the common ground that we are still playing Landstill (whether you play Countertop or not) as in the core cards of:
3 Standstill
4 Mishra's Factory
2-3 EEs
Amiritemates?!
I personally think Standstill is just too good to not play in a control-shell. Others will disagree, but even in the face of Vial/aggro etc, Standstill is still good. You just have to modify the decklists to support it in such a meta. There is no other spell that outdraws Standstill (predict is just as situational, Treasure Hunt needs a completely different deck shell and still only draws 1 business spell).
Why do you need to draw cards though? Counterbalance costs the same mana as Standstill, is also a blue enchantment, and generates massive amount of card advantage too. However, rather than putting cards into hand, you effect the gamestate. It's also much less conditional, and has the potential to gain much more relevant card advantage.
I only play 2x Mishra's Factory because it taps for colorless mana. I'd rather play more colored sources to help me stabilize to a point where I can win with Jace 2.0, Elspeth or Decree. I also have a one-of Celestial Colonnade because it taps for both white and blue. The etb tapped only sucks when it is my second, third or fourth land drop. In all other instances, I have had no issue with the card having no use the first turn I play it. (and for the record, I'm not playing Counterbalance)Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
@Hanni: Because Countertop will generate you advantage only when you have assembled it. In your list or countertop landstill, it is harder to establish Countertop than countertop decks and when you do intend to go in that direction, then the deck no longer becomes Landstil, and becomes a Countertop variant. Although most Countertop lists are starting to Planeswalkers (and this should had been the case if they're leaning towards a more controllish role than a traditional Nassif/Prosak Goyf/Clique/Sower role).
I think this maybe the very reason why Landstill isn't played as much as it once was. There's too much variance and new people or people looking to see developments into the deck ends up seeing metagame variants of decks.
I think we are currently having one of the most unorganized threads on the Source. At least BUG Jacestill has somewhat consolidated on card selection. Not that UWx Landstill being this variant is a bad thing, but I definitely think it contributes to detering people from following the thread or picking it up.
(And I'm waiting for someone outside the Landstill thread to come chime in how Landstill is not a good deck :P)
So my longer reply has been swallowed by the site. Crap. Summary:
Auto includes:
- BUG has a fixed list because they have not as many alternatives
- UWx spells in every deck: 4 FoW, 4 StoP, 4 BS, 2 Standstill, 2 Explosives. + 2 Factories as beaters
- I think that we should add 1 Academy Ruins to that list. Any objections?
Choices I like:
- Trinket Mage: his flexibility has been great for me, I wouldn't cut him anymore
- Jace TMS: good enough and should be imo played by every version. It is quite unlikely that you lose once you untap with it and at worst he is Healing Salve + Brainstorm/Unsummon
- Crucible: I can't understand how players can ever not play this card. Recurring Fetchlands gives insane value in long games and recurring Manlands is quite useful, too.
The more I've been playing, the more I see the value of Trinket Mage. He's already been showing his value in Countertop lists. I just have to work out slots that work with im. not sure why people don't play Crucible either. Even without using Tops/Brainstorms, it's generating +1 card/land a turn and gives the deck the resiliency that it's most vulnerable to: Wasteland.
I am not overly impressed with Crucible a lot of times. Against opposing control, the card is insane; however, I nearly always play control and have played the control v. control matchup enough to know how to gain an edge in the match. Basically, I feel I don't need it to win control v. control. As for the other times it should be good - Merfolk, Goblins, Aggro Loam, other decks packing Wasteland - oftentimes, when I could cast it, I need the mana to get rid of an opposing threat (LoA, Lackey, Crusher) or I need the mana for a Counterspell to stop something stupid from hitting play. If the board position stabilizes, I find that I no longer need the Crucible and it just feels like win-more. If the board position doesn't stabilize, then Crucible wouldn't have helped me anyway. I don't disagree with the fact hitting land drops every turn and recurring manlands is really powerful; I have personally found it unnecessary.
So after more testing I came up with a list that I am satisfied with and that I would like to share at the end of the post. But card choices first:
-2 Wrath of God, 0 Humility, 0 Moat.
It was too often that I would Humility and then take 3-4 damage the next turn so I still have to spend removal spells for their creatures. Stoneforge Mystic/Equipment gains popularity atm and then Humility sucks even more and post board most decks have Grips. There were too many side effects.
Moat has a very high variance and in general UW Landstill wants no variance in the solid Tarmogoyf matchup. G1 it shines relatively often, but enough decks already play Pridemages and with Green Sun's Zenith that won't get better. Postboard most decks get a ton of Grips and then you have no idea where you are at with your Moat. Only against the tribal matchups Moat is good but nowhere else.
Wrath'ing them two for one has overall worked out best for me and sometimes you get much more out of it. And even if it is only a one for one isn't the end of the world. They won't hit you back. It helps a lot that I play Trinket Mage to take care of Aether Vials, otherwise Wrath would probably be worse.
Another big plus for Wrath is that one of the main reason to play Wrath/Moat/Humility is Progenitus and Progenitus decks always have Grip post board.
- 0 Standstill: I cut Standstill completely. It was by far not often enough good. Either they go Vial, or they play Factory.dec too or they are so fast (Affinity, Zoo, Dredge) that I only need Tempo, not cards.
- 3 Trinket Mage: I always feel impressed with this card. I gave the reasons for it last page. I'd like to add that Trinket Mage gives this otherwise very static deck a lot of much needed flexibility.
- 2 Crucible of Worlds: I think Crucible is worth it. I side it out against Aggro but depending on what kind of list you play it will also give you inevitability for the late game when combined with Academy Ruins in addition to the other good effects.
- 2 Preordain/Ponder: Which one? Play whatever you think is better. The discusson about this would be not productive and doesn't belong in this thread. But playing the two additional sorcery cantrips has helped my draws a lot.
- 2 Repeal: Another card that has helped me a lot to give the deck some flexibility. Gets Aether Vials, their 1 drop on the play, Counterbalances, Moxes, punishes them for keeping stuff back and is rarely dead.
- 2 Counterbalance: This is not a Countertop list, but when the games go long it will give you a lot of value.
- 1 Path to Exile: I felt that 4 Swords were not enough.
- 0 Counterspell: In my more main phase oriented list (E.Ex., Top, Trinket Mage, Jace, WoG) I almost never had time for that.
// Lands
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [SOM] Island (4)
2 [6E] Plains (3)
3 [JGC] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 Preordain / Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 free slots (Extirpate, more PtE, more Finks, more Crypts, Meddling Mage, Canonist, 3rd Clique)
I think a lot of people would eyeball and say that your list is unfocused, but I can see where you're headed. It seems very much like the decklist that GerryT and the recent 4c countertop builds are playing without Goyfs, although it's probably not as optimized.
In my personal opinion, I would rather cut 1 card and run the 3rd Couterbalance in your list. I do agree that Wrath is more relevant again given the huge surge of aggro decks, and Humility doesn't cut it unless you have other stabilization effects (you don't run Wish/life-gain so Humility blows here).
Since I have not tested your list (but I think I have plenty of experience with Landstill), I would personally go -2 Preordain/Ponder for +1 ETutor, +1 Counterbalance, and -1 Crucible + 1 Shackles. That singleton ETutor can function as your 2nd Crucible, 4th CB, 2nd Pithing Needle, 4th EE if you need to. Shackles is quite a beating against tribal these days and I'm picking it up again. Against Bant/GWx, your 5StP and 3 EE + 3 Jaces + 2 WoG should be more than enough, so Shackles can possibly solidify an all-round tribal and other non-Goyf matchup.
Looks solid though. I personally won't cut Standstill but I can see your hatred for the card :P I think after understanding the failures and successes of Landstill, I'm much better at utilizing Standstills. Things have changed where turn 2 Standstill is no longer as critical as before. You really only want to drop Standstill when you seal the game. When you see things from that perspective, you'll see that why I still play Standstills despite Vial.decs since I hardly drop them early if I can't put pressure under it. They'll just outdraw me and beat the crap out of me. But once you get a Planeswalker under it, it becomes very different. I say give Standstill another shot, because I don't really resolve Standstill early these days anymore, and it's not solely because of Vial.decks, it's just how I think you are no longer in the position to abuse it in the early games compared to the history of the deck.
That suggestion with E. Tutor sounds quite good. I started with E Tutors but always have the problem that I want to add things like Moat to increase its effectivity. So maybe 1 Tutor and no additional target can work out.
But I don't feel a need for a third Counterbalance, though. There are enough matchups in which it is bad (Merfolk, Goblins, Mox Opal Affinity) or mediocre. It is a nice tool to control the late game by not allowing Sword, Bolt or Brainstorm and countering dangerous 3 or 4-drops but not a necessity.
I don't hate Standstill, but after testing it I came to the conclusion that it is not worth playing in the current Meta. Like you said Standstill is too often not a good turn 2 play anymore. But in the later stages of the game, and especially if I get to untap with a Jace, it is already win more (unlike Counterbalance which can be the difference between win and lose).
Against Affinity, Goblins and Merfolk it is pure Force Fodder / Mulligan, against Zoo it is not reliable at all and against other control decks it doesn't do anything unless you already draw more lands than them.
On a side note, Crucible plus Jace is far more broken than Standstill plus Jace. Not that I would get it online too often and it is also win more, but I wanted to mention that when it works it is so sweet. Pretty much exactly like a free Ancestral every turn.
Cutting Standstills?
http://journal.paul.querna.org/wp-co...-jail-card.jpg
Seriously. Standstill is a difficult card to play with. If you find it useless it is probably because you need more and more testing with it. I menaged to stick early Standstills against every deck, from Goblin to Merfolk to Countertop. So its resiliency is not given by opponents deck, but rather from you knowledge of the timing in dropping it. Also lot of times I bluffed a Standstill and forced my opponent to play through it and let me draw 3 even if I knew his deck was better than mine under Standstill. It's a very complex card to play (and to play against) but I would never cut it. Also it is not true that is dead versus control and versus Zoo. That's my opinion...
Watching the SCG: Open from last weekend, a UBG Landstill player ran out a Standstill with a single Mishra's Factory staring down 2x Mother of Runes, even though the opponent was playing against a deck packing Wasteland. The line of play is clear: if the opponent doesn't have the Wasteland, he will be forced to break the Standstill in order to hope to apply enough pressure to be able to win the game. The opponent can't just play draw-go until he finds the Wasteland. And even if he does have the Wasteland, double Mom isn't an exceptionally fast clock; the landstill player has several turns to either find another Factory or simply sculpt his hand to the point where he nearly always wins the game. A lot of players wouldn't have cast Standstill in that spot. I was impressed when I saw it. All in all, Standstill is a very powerful card; it is also very complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
I'm good, know how Standstill works and played this format and deck enough so lack of skill is not an issue.
With that out of the way I think it is undeniable that Standstill is inherently powerful but also inherently unreliable. If you have the time as well as the long-term advantage should no one play anything for a certain period of time then you can drop it, otherwise not. And in a Meta filled with decks to beat (Goblins, Merfolk, Ichorid, Mox Opal Affinity) and established decks (Landstill, Lands) it is bad against combined with the inherent unreliability in nearly every matchup I just don't think the effect when it works is powerful enough to justify having a dead card all the other times.
Guys, this thread is a mess.
I'm glad to see you're cutting Standstill for creatures and no one can see where Crucible is good.
It's hard to post any kind of response that isn't very akin to trolling, but there is so much wrong here. This is my list, piloted by my friend and teammate
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36639
A few cards off of my list that took 10th in Nashville but with very much the same concept.
It stands to reason that you can't fit Counterspell in your deck that is tapping out for low value cards every turn. I don't see how you can really combat decks like merfolk, Goblins, opposing Countertop decks with an anemic control suite and such weak win conditions. This deck is only a temporary solution waiting for the opponent's inevitability to crush it.
Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you. If you're concerned about the opponent being able to answer them you could do what I do - board them out. This is a great trick that has been passed down from control player to control player for years now. There is little better feeling than when the opponent flashes you a hand of Krosan Grips and you take your moat out of the sideboard.
I don't know how anyone can be playing this deck without Cunning Wish right now, All of the UBG players are playing it, the CAB Jace deck is playing it, it turns so many matches around with just a single card.
At least people have stopped discussing Firespout.
Also, make sure that your Explosives go to 4. And with Bant and counter-top decks coming back, Elspeth is going to be insaner than she already is.
Oh yeah, people still have no answer for Peacekeeper.
The list ( http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36639) looks like made to totally annihilate all the bad aggro or other tier-2 decks on it's way. And to just loose to all good decks, because of being to slow and having lots high costing cards. This might be because of no Wastelands in the metagame, I suppose...
[EDIT]Counted Wastelands - 16 for all top16 decks, counting 2 at that Standstill's list, ok.
*no offence, just don't like the decklist
Good is a relative term that you did not qualify. The deck had two losses in the 9 rounds - the mud deck that came in second and Dredge. Do those both qualify as good decks for you? Just post a reply when you feel like filling in the blank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajsmirnov
Also, with this being your first post in the thread, I was surprised to see that you didn't offer any sort of constructive argument. A Negative argument, which you proposed does nothing to further the conversation and is simply trolling. Was that your intention?
I was going to say I don't like the deck, as I did. There are 232 pages of discussion about Landstill and many people agree that the deck like this is simply too slow for today's legacy.
And what matches you win? Yes, Dredge is good enough. MUD - we will know soon, MUD is new.
I can suggest you to test more casting costs light version, and do not rely on Moat you're siding out often. Also, is 3 Cunning wish ever good?
p.s.: 1sth post here doesn't mean I know nothing about the deck.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but performance means more than words. What MShake is sayingn if you have criticism/opinions, back them up with arguments. Shake's backed his list up with results, and what you feel is 'slow' is all relative to the metagame they were preparing against. IMO, Humility and Moat both shut out a ton of decks at the moment. The permission/removal suite seems to look good to stabilizing up to turn 4. (5 counterspells/snares, 5 StP/Path, on top of 3 EE and 4 Force).Quote:
p.s.: 1sth post here doesn't mean I know nothing about the deck.
Ah it's good to see you back in this thread shake :).
Regarding your list (and comparing it to your last some pages back) I noticed that you've cut the 3rd DoJ and the Eternal Dragon, together with the Pate in the board, any suggestions about this?
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
I tested Wish and didn't like it, I mean, sometimes it's broken but other times all it can do is pitching to will, probably I don't like the fact that it eats 8 slots of my sb. Also only CABJace and few variations of UWx run it.Landstill UBG (called Jace Landeed ) doesn't run it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
I think 4 EE is overkill, and maybe a bit more of spot removal instead of the 4th one is better. But I guess it's all about your playstyle. Elspeth is already insane...Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
True. The fact is that I can't find any...^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Some constructive critiques.
We all know that primary idea of the deck is to Sword/Counter 1st turn threat opponent has and play Standstill. In the list from Indy it doesn't work because of only 3 Standstills and even no Enlightened MB. 4th Standstill or Enlightened should be maindecked.
Then, against decks with creatures there are two kinds of lock - Humility+Elspeth, and Moat. All 1-ofs. Tutorable only after Cunning for Enlightened resolves, wich takes an impermissible amount of time and mana investment. We can spend 2 turns assembling and fail because of simple Spell Pierce, or Vindicate, or double Wasteland on white mana(6 fetches do not support an easy finding double plains).
...ok, we board out Moat/Humility against green or splashed green opponent. They have usless Grip in hand. Can this deck ever stop ex. Goblins without those enchantments?
Also Humility without Elspeth is very soft lock, esp with only 3 Mishras.
Isn't it better to change Decree for board sweppers, Wrath/Firespout? Decree without Crucible rly looks like Raise the Alarm+draw.
True, the "classic" 4cc bombs Landstill shell is very viable. I played UWr at Indy and finished 4-3-1, but doing less than stellar was more my fault than the deck's.Quote:
Concerning cards like moat and Humility, they are exceptional against the tribal decks, also any other deck that really wants to play creatures or attack you.
My tie was against UG Show and Tell when he had two cards in his library as extra turns expired and no way to kill me. He spent a over minute on a Brainstorm earlier that match, I asked him to please make a decision, and it ended up being another 20 seconds until he finished resolving it-I was watching the big clock. I should have done something about that. I lost to the one High Tide player in the room I saw, game three I had three hate cards and a counter but he had triple Force. I played Jason Ford in round six, playing UB Ant. I was up a game because of tardiness and I mulligan to oblivion trying to find blue cards since I knew what he was playing. The next game I mulligan into a turn two Canonist. I am forced to play Standstill since I lose if he has a bounce spell. He casts Chain of Vapor targetting Canonist as a response. He untaps, Dark Rits (draws me into blue spell, Force), Cabal Rituals, and Grim Tutors. I Force, hoping he doesn't have another tutor, then he casts Petal, LED, Infernal-Nauseum-kill me. I punted into a draw round eight and conceded since neither of us would be able to make prize with a draw.
The deck is incredibly powerful, but the storm matchup needs some work, even with Canonists, REBs, 2 other storm hate, and Pierces side they have given me problems in tournaments and testing. My wins were against two Goblins (2-1 should have 2-0'd AJ Sacher, but I messed up a Jace brainstorm, 2-1), BWG Bob/Goyf/Knight (2-0), and Aggro Loam (2-0, I ran 0 Wish)
I do not like it maindeck at all, but I played them sideboard at Indy and they were fantastic all day, I would even go as far as adding a third. The Goblins matchup is ok without them, but it makes it basically unlosable, and it helps the Zoo and Merfolk matchups as well.Quote:
At least people have stopped discussing Firespout.
I love Wish, but I find it too slow. Most of the time I was spending four mana for an expensive Path to Exile when I played it. I haven't missed it since, unless someone has Pithing Needled Explosives. I will have to try it again, the meta seems to have slowed down slightly, with the lack of Survival and the absence of Zoo.Quote:
I don't know how anyone can be playing this deck without Cunning Wish right now, All of the UBG players are playing it, the CAB Jace deck is playing it, it turns so many matches around with just a single card.
I played a list with very similar numbers at the 4c slot as that one, 2 Humility, 1 Elspeth, 3 Jace, 2 Decree, 2 Wrath, 1 Fof. The Fof was in place of a 4th Standstill, which I was drawing too often against Vial decks in testing, and three Jace were amazing, I always wanted to have one in play.
The night before we cut the dragon, we were concerned about the speed of the environment and didn't want the liability that Dragon can sometimes present, the more stable mana base was excellent and no one missed dragon all day. The 3rd Decree was a cut made a while back and while I sincerely do love that card, we needed to free a slot to combat other decks. With Bant and Rock Decks really slumping in numbers during Survival's time in the spotlight, we were not seeing as many favorable instances for the card, although we are all still very big fans of it. Two has been an excellent number as it still fills all the roles it did before, but we just can't be as liberal as we were being with the use of the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
Concerning the Path in the board, it was mostly there for merfolk, and wasn't great against Goblins or too many other decks. merfolk has been largely taken care of thanks to Peacekeeper, so it seemed natural that one of the slots used to accommodate Peacekeeper would be a Path to Exile slot, we've all been pretty happy with this configuration.
The Firespout in the board turned out to be weak for most of us and was another last minute inclusion, it likely would have been better as Extirpate, but I wanted to be sure that we had Goblins covered. I'm still not sold on Extirpate in the current metagame, but we'll see what things look like.
I meant to imply 4 Chrarge counters. Killing Planeswalkers is important.Quote:
I think 4 EE is overkill, and maybe a bit more of spot removal instead of the 4th one is better. But I guess it's all about your playstyle. Elspeth is already insane...
This is a very linear approach to the deck, I am not entirely certain that we all know that or even that I know that is the main approach of the deck. The situation you've presented is a prime example of an opportunity to get full value out of Standstill, but I don't think that is the main goal of the deck. I feel that idea is to generate a lot of card advantage and quality over the course of the game and pair that with strong control elements to generate wins.Quote:
We all know that primary idea of the deck is to Sword/Counter 1st turn threat opponent has and play Standstill. In the list from Indy it doesn't work because of only 3 Standstills and even no Enlightened MB. 4th Standstill or Enlightened should be maindecked.
A lot of times if you're casting a 4 mana Path to Exile, maybe that should be a 4 mana Enlightened Tutor instead. Cunning Wish is an expensive card to play with and clearly isn't fast, but it makes it so that you're not forced to commit card slots to narrower things, such as additional copies of Path, which are dead against a good number of decks, or maindecked graveyard hate like the Baneslayer control deck does with Relic of Progenitus.Quote:
I love Wish, but I find it too slow. Most of the time I was spending four mana for an expensive Path to Exile when I played it. I haven't missed it since, unless someone has Pithing Needled Explosives. I will have to try it again, the meta seems to have slowed down slightly, with the lack of Survival and the absence of Zoo.
If this sort of statement were true, that would imply that every deck is a bad match as every deck is either fast or packs some form of disruption. Bant and Rock style decks are incredibly favorable despite access to Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize and Vindicate. These cards are all good because they do more than just Wrath of God. Wrath will always just kill creatures, moat and Humility generate concessions. Sometimes Decree is only a Raise the Alarm + a draw, which is surprisingly good enough to dig a few cards deeper. However, it is the flexibility of cards like Decree of Justice and Cunning Wish that have proven themselves over and over again to me which keeps them in my deck. I will be the first to admit that on some levels it is a matter of play style, but I also feel that styles that can see the strength of those cards are playstyles well suited to playing Landstill.Quote:
Then, against decks with creatures there are two kinds of lock - Humility+Elspeth, and Moat. All 1-ofs. Tutorable only after Cunning for Enlightened resolves, wich takes an impermissible amount of time and mana investment. We can spend 2 turns assembling and fail because of simple Spell Pierce, or Vindicate, or double Wasteland on white mana(6 fetches do not support an easy finding double plains).
Also, I've played decks with lower curves, even control decks. Despite better judgment I'm a big fan of the Counter-Top Thopter list with Future Sight. But this thread doesn't exist for the discussion of how to play that deck or a Counter-Top Deck with a Trinket mage package or other things, but rather for the discussion, critiquing and learning of Landstill, the old guard of Legacy control. While I did jut set the deck up there to be slammed by some cunning phrase talking about how it is the old guard, Landstill has sustained while the BUG, Speedstill, Dreadstill and Ultimate Walker variants have all flourished and faded, so there is clearly something to be said about the consistency and strength of the fundamentals of the deck, that is what I want to explore.
I really like the 4x Counterspell in your list. I currently run 4x Spell Snare, 2x Counterspell and am going to try out a 3/3 split. I do like Spell Snare because there is a lot of people playing combo in the area, and I like the cheap counter to help me out. However, there is also a lot of decks with annoying planeswalkers and Spell Snare clearly does not counter opposing TMS. When I go to a larger event (an SCG Open) I'll definitely play more Counterspell for random nuisances that Spell Snare is just cold to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Moat is a beating. Most decks can't win through it game 1. The same goes for Humility. I would never cut them from the main deck for fear the opponent is going to sideboard in K.Grip. I'll gladly go up 1-0 in the match every time. I can't agree more. This also brings up an important point: sideboarding with this deck is critical. Taking out the wrong card could cost you the game and possibly the match. Tonight, I was testing against a Sneak Attack deck and forgot to take out Spell Snare. It definitely lost me a game when I saw 3 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
This is 100% true. People assume it's no longer relevant due to Survival being gone. The look on an opponent's face when you cast (or Show and Tell into play) Peacekeeper is priceless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Even if they had answers to Peacekeeper, it's not an answer with Split second, and that's where Counterspell/FoW come in to blank them out. The only good answers to Peacekeeper are cards like Cursed Scroll/Lavamancers/Zoos/Gobs, which you obviously don't board her in in those matchups.
Shake, in testing, did you guys play 1 Elspeth due to the situations on drawing 2 Elspeths? That happens to me quite frequently actually given the digging of the deck. She's still insanely powerful although I've been annoyed by seeing twin Elspeths during the course of games.
@4Counterspells: I live and die with with 4xCounterspells. During Survival era, it made sense to play 4 Spell Snares before Counterspells, but that era is over. We're back to the bomb-heavy 3cmc and 4cmc meta (Ringleader, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Knight of the Reliquary).
This is my latest list that has been treating me well (although Zoo just sometimes gets in there with burn before you can do anything).
Lands:
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Board-control: 11
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
1 Humility
Draw/tutors/cantrip: 12
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
Permission: 8
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Win-condition: 6
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible
2 Jace
1 Elspeth
SB:
1 REB
1 BEB
2 Path to Exile
2 Orim's Chant
2 Negate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Etutor
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flex slots (could be Firespout, Pithing Needle etc).
The list is still Scepterstill. Testing has shown that many times, on turn 4 (you want to play it turn 4 to at least use it once or Counterspell the removal they played on it), Scepter either gets FoW'd (you 2-1'd them) or it resolves with protection and you start 2-1'ing them every turn. Scepters turn your x4 Counterspell and x4 StP/x3Helix slots into much more when it's online. If it's countered, you have simply invested 2 mana in digging out a Counterspell/FoW from their hand, and you can recur Scepter later if you need to.
I went up to 3 Cunning Wish despite feeling the slowness of the spell. But this is compensated by the early removal suite (4 StP, 3 Helix). Path is an all-time star but I'm not amazed by it as of now in the meta of tribal/Zoo. Helix has been quite successful in testing, killing everything in tribal/merfolks without netting them a land for tempo development. More importantly, Helix essentially spells out 1 more turn. There are many games where I wished I had 25 life when playing Landstill in Legacy than 20. Some games are quite narrowly lost because of the 5-10 life buffer. Helix also allows me to cut Pulse of the Fields from the SB. Despite being a great card, Pulse only does one thing - gaining life. It is not removal. The beauty of Helix is that it both stabilizes and deals with a threat. When you put it on a Scepter, it's obviously unfair.
The maindeck otherwise is very similar to stock landstill lists, using Cunning Wish to fetch up ETutor -> Crucible/Humility/EE/Standstill when needed. Cunning Wish does a little more for this build fetching up REB/BEB/Path/Chant/Negate to be imprinted on Scepter if I ever draw one. The SB does not play Peacekeeper since it has a favorable MD against Merfolks (Helix are MVP here). If you resolve a Scepter with removal, it becomes almost impossible for them to win. Against Emrakul/Progenitus decks, Chant/Scepter becomes important here (more difficult to setup than Peacekeeper) but with a combination of Negates/REB/Chants all boarded in, your goal is to get Jace/Scepter online asap and control the game from there.
I've done quite a lot of testing with Scepter. If you have enough instants MD, it's seldom a dead card, and there are only 2-possible situations if you play it correctly: Play it turn 4 against decks with counters/Pridemage and it will either be FoW'd (which you should have a counter/fow ready) so it will be online, or you can 2-1 their FoW if you feel you no longer need Scepter because they ran out of cards and you would simply play a normal game with the removal in your hand. Against decks without counters/Pridemage, lock in Scepter as soon as turn 2, and things start getting very ugly. For myself, Scepter is like a planeswalker in the deck (casting 2cmc). You protect it you win the game, they don't deal with it, you win the game.
I've been taking a little break from this deck, and hopefully we get more insight from this thread than we had before. In the meantime, playing the aggressor in Legacy is quite fun when I no longer have to keep dealing with people's shit :P
Hey Guys, First post on these forums.
I was turned onto Landstill over at the Official forums, and I keep seeing people refer others over here 'cause y'all know more so here I am lol. I've been tweaking this list for going on 3-4 months, and am relatively new to legacy, played casual for years and standard/extended, so If i start rambling like an idiot just tell me ^^
So when I was looking through decklists I liked I found another interaction in a deck that I though would be interesting splashed into the deck, and its the Counterbalance+Top Engine.
As a foreward, A thought I have had is putting In 1-2 Elspeths in place of Some Decrees
Counterstill:
Instant:
Counterspell x4
Force of Will x4
Swords to plowshares x4
Diabolic Edict x3
Brainstorm x3
Some explainations:
Counterspell and Force of Will are auto includes in my opinion, its hard to have a control deck without, well, control magic.
Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict, Are here for removal, in my meta Sea Stompy, Goblins and Merfolks are very prolific so having a strong suit of removal main board seemed a must.
Brainstorm was at 4 at one point, But I started finding it more and more just being force fodder, Cutting it for some more streamlining at least in my testing seemed to work better. Other testing may have proved otherwise, its one of the tweaks I have made I am unsure of.
Sorcery:
Decree of Justice x3
Wrath of God x3
Some explainations:
Decree is a win condition, and can also be used to stabilize, Though more for my meta, there are a lot of homebrew weenie decks, and the ability to drop so many chump blockers with it and to win out with it when I cannot seem to find a wrath is good.
Wrath Board Sweep and Removal, as I said earlier I play in a meta with a lot of aggro decks, so sweepers just seem like a good include
Enchantment:
Standstill x4
Oblivion Ring x4
Counterbalance x3
Some explainations:
Standstill DUH lol
O-Ring Using it for removal, I know its not a definite answer, but this deck gets hurt really bad by a Chalice for 1 or two, as well as Aether Vial.
Counterbalance I dont really know to be honest, I liked the idea of Counter Balance and Top in the countertop lists I saw and wanted to try it in a package like this, So far local testing is working very well, but it is not too varied.
Artifacts:
Sensei's Diving Top x3
Some explainations:
Top helps with card quality and is kinda needed for the Counter Top Engine.
Lands:
Island x4
Plains x3
swamp x2
Mishra's Factory x4
Creeping Tar Pits x2
Celestial Colonnade x1
Tundra x2
Watery Grave x2 (these will be underground Seas if I can get them)
Reliquary tower x2
Some explainations:
Factory is a win condition, plain and simpe
Tar Pits In the early inception of the deck I was using them to actually win games, so far they are still fairly good for me, and are also a major reason for wanting to include Elspeth, going from a 3/2 unblockable to a 6/5 unblockable flier just seems good.
Celestial Colonnade has won me slow control matchups before, a 4/4 with flying and vigilance has helped tremendously, I do find it too costly but am unsure what to replace with.
Reliquary Tower funny enough I was finding myself in control and actually losing cards after standstill being broken due to having too many in hand. I havent had a chance to test with them too much though they seem to be working fairly well in the few games I have played.
Well thanks for looking at it guys.