Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
makochman
Playing no MD Dread Return targets is a mistake which makes his list slower and more vulnerable to random locks. GGT is Path to Exile fodder.
The consensus seems to be that Leyline of the Void is bad in Legacy Dredge. As a 3-of it must be even worse.
He's basically saying Dredge beats most of the field both game 1 and game 2, and GY hate doesn't matter. Because big tournament results (reality check!) don't support this claim, he says people have been playing the deck wrong, and his own list is the optimal, because he had some success with it. Someone on their forum pointed out the tournaments he won with Dredge were relatively small with weak top 8's, nothing to brag about. Dredge is a great deck, but it's unlikely to ever 'annihilate all of the StarCityGames.com Legacy Opens' because it's so hateable.
The arrogance is so annoying.
The only reason to play Dread Return targets is if you're worried about combo mirrors. Most people aren't.
You basically never draw a card from your library if you're playing dredge, so if you want to board for the mirror, you'll need a card that's good in your opening hand. Leyline is far and away the best card to have in your opening hand.
I remain confused as to why the deck doesn't destroy more tournaments, but I think it's basically the same as Tendrils; people are totally incompetent.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogboy
The only reason to play Dread Return targets is if you're worried about combo mirrors. Most people aren't.
You basically never draw a card from your library if you're playing dredge, so if you want to board for the mirror, you'll need a card that's good in your opening hand. Leyline is far and away the best card to have in your opening hand.
I remain confused as to why the deck doesn't destroy more tournaments, but I think it's basically the same as Tendrils; people are totally incompetent.
Let's agree that DR targets are a metagame choice.
He should have 4 Leylines then.
I believe that if Dredge was in fact capable of destroying more tournaments while fighting through hate and locks, the tournament results would reflect that. I don't think that the "people are stupid" argument, which is also used by Mr McCall, is valid here. The deck has been around for a while, people have had time to learn to play it and to play against it, and it's not so difficult to play, so there's no reason to think that its performance has been hampered by the players' incompetence any more than any other deck.
NB Mr McCall also says the deck is "pretty easy" to play.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Thanks for that fast answer!
I was going to change the Chains to Claims anyway when I can pick up some in the next time, weird that I have none... .
Playing 3 Therapies wasnt bad in many games because if I need them as a 4 of I board that way. But this is very precious sb Space indeed. Against Goblins I never had a problem even without Firestorm, but against Merfolk its very good, true point there!
I think I am going to test the Version thats posted and do my best.
I think the problem in general is that a lot of dredge-players dont want to realy "earn" their victory out of a game, they want to do a total blowout or just scoop. It is definetly not an easy one to play. I just play it because I love to carry a win home by making the right decisions at the right time and feel confident about that after the game.
Thanks again!
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HokusSchmokus
Exactly my list. But I have to say that German dredge players are somewhat blessed because of Torremond(Dennis)'s excelent Primer on german forums.
From having no DR targets to only running 3 Ichorids, it's just so well tested, explained and optimized. To me definately the non plus ultra LED-less list.
I would totally agree that that list is (close to) the optimal build one can run for most metagames. I play the same list. Only sometimes it will occur that I might add a maindecked Dread Return tagret over the 4th Thug if I feel I'll desperately need it in the metagame. My sideboard also looks the same, except that I sometimes play the 3rd DR over the 4th Firestorm.
Chain vs Claim:
Nature's Claim is the better choice as long as your metagame doesn't feature lots of decks that board in Yixlid Jailers (though Firestorm also helps here, but you'll often not board it for game 2, so it mostly works in game 3). Same goes for Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg. Also Chain is the only solution against Blazing Archon or Iona @ Black. And in general it's just the most versatile anti hate card which can be blindly boarded for game 2, when you don't know what hate to expect. Other than that, as I said, Claim is better.
@ Boarding plans: You can cut Ichorids down to 2, or even to 0 against Storm combo. Then, one can cut down to 10-11 Dredgers. If running 15 lands, cutting the 3rd Tarnished Citadel is also viable, especially against super fast decks, against which you don't want to eat those 3 damage each turn. Against some decks one can also cut Cabal Therapies, for example against things like Affinity, the mirror, Lands and so on. But I would never go below 2 Therapies for the simple reason that you'll still need them occasionally, for example for discarding some trolls from your own hand, and for splitting your creatures with Bridges. After that, as stated above, drop as many Careful Studies as you need.
And in the maindeck, I also think that anything below 4 Cabal Therapies is not right. This card is so incredibly useful against almost each single deck. And even against thise it's not that useful against, it's still a backup discard outlet for you and it splits creatures. It happens so often that you have 2 creatures and 2 Bridges by turn 2 and need the Therapy in order to cast DR...
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
makochman
Let's agree that DR targets are a metagame choice.
He should have 4 Leylines then
re: DR targets: Sure; Sphinx and Zealot are a maybe depending on how many combo decks you think you need to beat. Iona, Terastodon, Primus, Angel, etc, are garbage, and are a pretty good reason why people don't win more tournaments with Dredge. Note that people who think that Iona actually contributes to win probability added are pretty likely to punt in other aspects of playing/sideboarding.
Are you contending that if you have four sideboard slots for the Dredge mirror that Leyline is the best card, but if you only have three WHOA BETTER WATCH OUT and cut them for Tormod's Crypt or something equally terrible?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Max is right on almost all accounts, but I disagree with him here. I think Terastodon is useful to not scoop game 1 against random-ass Stax or Lands decks. I definitely want one in the 75, and having it in the 60 is fine.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogboy
re: DR targets: Sure; Sphinx and Zealot are a maybe depending on how many combo decks you think you need to beat. Iona, Terastodon, Primus, Angel, etc, are garbage, and are a pretty good reason why people don't win more tournaments with Dredge. Note that people who think that Iona actually contributes to win probability added are pretty likely to punt in other aspects of playing/sideboarding.
Are you contending that if you have four sideboard slots for the Dredge mirror that Leyline is the best card, but if you only have three WHOA BETTER WATCH OUT and cut them for Tormod's Crypt or something equally terrible?
No, I'm saying that while Leyline is certainly the best graveyard hate for Dredge, you still need to play 4 to limit mulliganing. Dredge already has stringent requirements on the opening hand.
As for DR targets, I stand unconvinced.
Peace.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
The only reason to play Dread Return targets is if you're worried about combo mirrors. Most people aren't.
Not quite. The reason to play Dread Return targets is to fill shortcomings in the decks gameplan. Sometimes the problem you're trying to solve is "my deck has a hard time racing combo," but not always. There are other holes in Dredge's strategy that other Dread Return targets may be more suited to fill, depending on the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
re: DR targets: Sure; Sphinx and Zealot are a maybe depending on how many combo decks you think you need to beat. Iona, Terastodon, Primus, Angel, etc, are garbage, and are a pretty good reason why people don't win more tournaments with Dredge.
Care to elaborate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Note that people who think that Iona actually contributes to win probability added are pretty likely to punt in other aspects of playing/sideboarding.
Was this a serious comment, or was your intention to be inflammatory? If it was a serious comment I wouldn't mind getting some insight into your reasoning.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
makochman
No, I'm saying that while Leyline is certainly the best graveyard hate for Dredge, you still need to play 4 to limit mulliganing. Dredge already has stringent requirements on the opening hand.
Frogboy is right, though.
Leyline is the one and only grave hate card for Dredge. The only disadvantage it has in comparison to Crypt and the like is the fact that it has to be in your opener. Considering the fact that you will probably never ordinarily draw a card in dredge, you will have to have Crypt in your opener as well. So as you see there is no real disadvantage of Leyline for dredge. And if you only have 3 slots in your sb that can be dedicated to grave hate, still 3 Leylines are better than 3 copies of any other grave hate card.
As for the Dread Return targets, I guess that frogboy only referred to the main deck. The incredible power and utility of Terastodon in the sb can't really be doubted.
And I would also be interested in why Iona is garbage. Maybe it's just for me but I've won so incredibly many games only through her (and I mean situations where a Grave-Troll wouldn't have won)
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
So, Dredge took top 1/2/3 out of 39 people in a league tournament in Lisbon.
Here are the list of the Non-LED Dredge:
Discuss.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
No, I'm saying that while Leyline is certainly the best graveyard hate for Dredge, you still need to play 4 to limit mulliganing. Dredge already has stringent requirements on the opening hand.
a) you can keep hands that don't have sideboard cards in them
b) there isn't room in the sideboard to devote four cards to the mirror in almost any metagame
c) would we even be having this conversation if we were talking about Crypt or Trap? I suspect not.
re: Dread Return targets
d) I guess metagames might exist where you want a way to beat Stax and Lands but if that's the case you should probably move out of the bowels of Texas (:B) in seriousness, the sphinx/zealot package goes a long way towards racing Lands in game one. I've only ever played one match against Stax in my life; he got clubbed to death by Ichorids.
e) what deck is Iona even good against? It doesn't lock out most Tendrils lists. it's worse than basically every other target against Lands because it's not too hard for them to Tabernacle it away and get Loam back. like when you get Iona into play you usually win, but you almost never needed Iona to win and in many circumstances you could reanimate a creature - ham sandwich and that would be good enough. a lot of people who just assume that Iona is an autowin that people just scoop to are i) wrong and ii) demonstrate a lack of fundamental understanding that likely carries over into how they play the game.
I reread the above and it's kinda trolly but I don't really know how else to put it.
f) your Dread Return targets should address specific cards. Terastodon/Primus beat Glacial Chasm/Ghostly Prison/Moat/other permanents. Angel of Despair is slightly worse against those lock pieces but is an out to Blazing Archon. Ancestor's Chosen beats Progenitus and is good against Tendrils but bad against Zoo. Zealot beats, well, Dark Ritual. Sphinx is virtually a second copy of whatever your target is. Iona doesn't actually beat anything.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Chosen is actually good at Zoo. The only way they can beat you is for you to be all-in on Tarnished Citadel and them to draw enough burn. Chosen takes that plan away.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HokusSchmokus
Exactly my list. But I have to say that German dredge players are somewhat blessed because of Torremond(Dennis)'s excelent Primer on german forums.
From having no DR targets to only running 3 Ichorids, it's just so well tested, explained and optimized. To me definately the non plus ultra LED-less list.
Can somebody give me the link to this german primer :)? I would like to read it, since I am planning on taking the deck to a 200+ player tournament next week, and it has been a time since i played the deck :)
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1maarten1
Can somebody give me the link to this german primer :)? I would like to read it, since I am planning on taking the deck to a 200+ player tournament next week, and it has been a time since i played the deck :)
Here it is: http://www.mtg-forum.de/thread-ledle...dge-69902.html
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Yay for necro'ing a conversation that happened 3 weeks ago.
I think Iona is better than some veterans have claimed in this thread (including people who have much more experience with this deck than I have -- so take my opinion with a grain of salt). I've won plenty of games in virtue of Iona. I'm far from convinced that there aren't any situations where Iona is strictly the best DR target. I don't even think Iona is always 'win-more' either. That said, even if there are games where it is worthy, this isn't sufficient evidence to play the card overall. Does it merit a slot in the sideboard? Does it provide as much benefit as what could replace it? Mmm...I don't know. Local legacy metagames can be very different from what we expect at very large tournaments, and I can certainly think of metagames where Iona is worth having.
peace,
4eak
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4eak
Yay for necro'ing a conversation that happened 3 weeks ago.
I think Iona is better than some veterans have claimed in this thread (including people who have much more experience with this deck than I have -- so take my opinion with a grain of salt). I've won plenty of games in virtue of Iona. I'm far from convinced that there aren't any situations where Iona is strictly the best DR target. I don't even think Iona is always 'win-more' either. That said, even if there are games where it is worthy, this isn't sufficient evidence to play the card overall. Does it merit a slot in the sideboard? Does it provide as much benefit as what could replace it? Mmm...I don't know. Local legacy metagames can be very different from what we expect at very large tournaments, and I can certainly think of metagames where Iona is worth having.
peace,
4eak
Well, of course there are some moments and situations where nothing else BUT Iona wins you the game. But, assuming you have done everything correctly, those situations tend to be kinda rare.
As a meta choice I'd say Iona has to be considered.Shes in no way a bad card. But the main problem is the loss of consistency and most people just don't like losing 5 games just to shmash your opponent with Iona in one game
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogboy
I remain confused as to why the deck doesn't destroy more tournaments, but I think it's basically the same as Tendrils; people are totally incompetent.
You should research that.
Did you make any changes to your build after the survival explosion?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HokusSchmokus
Well, of course there are some moments and situations where nothing else BUT Iona wins you the game. But, assuming you have done everything correctly, those situations tend to be kinda rare.
As a meta choice I'd say Iona has to be considered.Shes in no way a bad card. But the main problem is the loss of consistency and most people just don't like losing 5 games just to shmash your opponent with Iona in one game
QFT
All about weighing powed against consistency, or differently put: winning games only through Iona against losing games because Iona is a dead card in a place where the card you would otherwise use over her could save you.
For instance, IF I used Iona, I would cut the 12th Dredger for her. So I can roughly say that I will lose games through her if she's in my opener, but I don't have any Dredgers. That will happen in about 3% of 7-card-hands I draw. So mathematically speaking, if I expect to win more than 3% of games only through Iona, it's probably worth running her. I know that that might be a bit too theoretical, but isn't it math that the whole deck building in magic is about?
@Pltnmngl:
Personally, I think that our matchup isn't bad against SurviVine. So I don't think that we have to change lists too much in order to fight it. But it might now be the time when Chain of Vapor shouldn't be used as the only enchantment removal in the Sideboards any more. Against Leyline otV it might work almost as well as Nature's Claim or Ray of Revelation, but against Survival, it doesn't.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I'm curious, what is the difference between this deck and the Ichorid deck in the DTB subforum?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sclabman
I'm curious, what is the difference between this deck and the Ichorid deck in the DTB subforum?
The Ichorid thread in the Proven forums is the older, original Ichorid thread, which was created when Lion's Eye Diamond was in each list. This thread was specifically created for the newer LEDless version. But as the old Ichorid thread was moved to proven and this one here not, most LEDless players now post into the older thread as well. Due to the fact that LEDless versions are at the moment performing better than LED builds, the discussions in the old thread are about LEDless variants as well, that's why there isn't much of a difference at the moment.
