Could someone explain why Ancient Grudge is played over Pithing Needle as an answer to artifact based graveyard hate? To me it Needle just seems better.
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Could someone explain why Ancient Grudge is played over Pithing Needle as an answer to artifact based graveyard hate? To me it Needle just seems better.
Ancient Grudge doesn't have to be in your opening hand, as it can be dredged. And it answers more than usual artifact-based hate, namely Ensnaring Bridge and Batterskull as usual targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
But, Pithing Needle seems strong if you feel like people are only bringing Crypt/Relic.
My primary concern is that grudge doesn't deal with Crypt/Relic properly since they can still activate them in response to Ancient Grudge and still leave you with nothing, or am I missing something?
The problem arises when you don't know which they are using or if they run a split of relic/crypt. It's pretty awesome when you t1 needle on relic and they drop a crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
You have to look at it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
It's right that Grudge can't prevent them from exiling your graveyard if you dredge into it. Still it's great for you if you force them to use their hate as soon as you dredge into the Grudge. You mostly don't lose a lot and can just restart your engine with a discard outlet.
Pithing Needle deals with the hate entirely. However, it has to be in your opening hand. Don't forget that Ancient Grudge can also be in your opening hand, at which point it also deals with their hate right away and before they get the chance to use it at all.
Also, most people diversify their hate, so as stated above, Needle could be entirely useless if you name the wrong card.
After all, Grudge is at least as good as Needle in your opener and much better if you dredge into it. That should make it clear why you should really go with Grudges.
As a sidenote. If I really wanted a Needle-type effect, I'd probably run Null Rod instead. That would stop all kinds of artifact based hate as well as fast mana of combo decks and Affinity.
Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge may be better than Memory's Journey. The mana cost matters. Even if Memory's Journey is blue (making more of your mana base relevant to hardcasting it), the CC matters more (otherwise cards like Tolarian Winds would see far more play). This is the sort of card that you often want to be hardcasting, flashing back only when necessary - otherwise you telegraph your play, and then a counterwall becomes more relevant. Speaking of which, 1cc cards will play around Daze and Spell snare more effectively. Additionally, you are more likely to be able to hardcast + flashback (in the same turn) when it only costs 1 to hardcast, which matters if they do happen to counter the hardcast but lack a counter for the flashback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
Obviously, exiling your card is not nearly as good as shuffling it back. You also get to do more than just protect one card from Surgical Extraction, you can also put back Narco's. On the flipside, working as hate, I'd prefer exile.
peace,
4eak
By the way, if my opponent targets an Ichorid with Surgical, and I exile it with Coffin Purge in response, the Surgical fizzles, right? Even if I have more Ichorids?
If so, then probably Purge/Purify the Grave is better indeed.
Correct. After you purge, Extraction doesn't have a legal target anymore, so it fizzles. This is what enables Memory's Journey to work against Surgical Extraction as well. Furthermore, even if you had multiple Ichorids in you GY, you wouldn't Memory's Journey the untargeted Ichorids (that would slow you down for no good reason) - Surgical Extraction can't 'change targets'. The target you chose when putting a spell/ability on the stack must be the same target when you try to resolve it. You only need to find a way to get rid of the targeted Ichorid.Quote:
By the way, if my opponent targets an Ichorid with Surgical, and I exile it with Coffin Purge in response, the Surgical fizzles, right? Even if I have more Ichorids?
peace,
4eak
I like the idea on Coffin Purge, Anyone else tested it and can share? Looks useful against reanimator as well.
@4eak: Got it, thanks.
@Gui: Yeah, that looks great, but against Reanimator you'll probably want at least 1 Coffin Purge in the early game, that makes it's number of slots required at least about 3. I don't think we can afford wasting those 3 slots. I still prefer Chain of Vapor as a Leyline-hate and also an option against Reanimator.
If Surgical extraction (in addition to Snapcaster) continues to be played in large numbers, I think we can easily spare 3 slots. If they hit both Bridge & Ichorid, especially early in the game, it can be very difficult to win. Snapcaster really helps decks reach that critical mass (which may just need to be 2 extractions in many cases) early and consistently.
peace,
4eak
Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge seems tricky, and Surgical Extraction is by far the most used hate nowdays.
I'd say that we could remove some combination of Nature's Claim and Rays for it.
Something like this:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Coffin Purge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return (if playing 1 md)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
@Vandalize
Playing just 3 Nature's Claim seems a bit risky, since we almost always want at least one of them in our opening hand. I'd remove the second Elesh Norn in order the open this slot. I really don't think 2 Elesh Norn is needed.
How do people feel about keeping enablers in the sideboard? I was thinking I could keep Firestorm in the sideboard to add for aggro matches. Is this viable or do we need to commit that much space for hate cards?
Of course we can. Firestorm in the side has been a good plan for ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
We definitely need anti hate, though. I can see myself going down to 3 Ancient Grudges now that people like to play Extraction over Relic/Crypt/Spellbomb. I'll always keep at least 4-5 answers to Leyline in there. 1-2 DR Targets against combo and one permanent killer should also be included imho.
That said, I'd play something along the lines of this:
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Wispmare
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Realm Razer
4 flex slots (Coffin Purge/Purify the Grave, Firestorm and Leyline of the Void for instance)
Oh, btw. Coffin Purge >>> Purify the grave. It looks much better with the old frame AND people don't know that card as much as they know the t2 card.
@Izor: Do you think Coffin Purge is better than Leyline of the Void, against Reanimator and Snapcaster? I don't like Leyline at all, for the record.
As a permanent killer, my favorite is Angel of Despair, and btw, i didn't see any in your list.
Elesh Norn seems to be a good DR target as well.
I don't know if Coffin Purge is better, for I haven't been able to test that enough. It really seems solid though. You can Purge your own card in resp to Extraction and thus save the remaining three in your deck/grave. And if they try to Snapcaster it back, you can even prevent that from happening entirely.
I don't like Leyline at all too. I've only played it once and that was in a metagame with 4 Dredge and two Reanimator decks out of 20 or so.
Oh, and Realm Razer is my permanent killer in this case. He beats Enchantress and Lands.dec all by himself. And Wispmare has the double role of being my 5th Claim vs Leyline as well as being my permanent killer against Moat, Enchantress and all that stuff. It can be cast for 1, and be DRed later. AoD is fine though. Wispmare + Razer is just a little tech I've come to like a lot.
I don't like Elesh that much tbh. She definitely is good against a variety of decks. My problem is that I usually want to sb something else as well and that would usually mean I board out a DR. By boarding in Elesh I have to keep my DR in and lose two slots. At that point I'd usually rather keep my enablers and draw effects high.
Yeah, maybe with Sneak and Show out of the field Realm Razer could be a decent option.
Here in Brazil I'm expecting some Emrakuls, so I opted for Angel instead.
I'm gonna play Nationals this Sunday with this sideboard:
4x Nature's Claim/ Chain of Vapor (not decided yet)
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Angel of Despair
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Purify the Grave (easier to find than Coffin Purge)
Standard list with 2 DR and Firestorm over Tribe. I'll play the second DR in the main over the 4th Ichorid because I needed it's slot in SB in order to fit Purify the Grave.
@4eak: You were right, Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction is just too powerful.
I recommend this SB:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Dredge can and should devote most of its sideboard to answering GY-hate. GY-hate, in its various forms, is the major barrier this deck faces.
I cannot recommend playing 6-7 answers to Leyline enough. You expect to open with answers to the card and still have gas to win in a timely fashion - playing 4 is not enough. Don't rely upon getting lucky, build to win.
Until I can find a better answer to Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster (or this form of hate declines), I'm stuck with Coffin Purge. I'm still not in love with the card.
These are the only DR targets that automatically make my list. At this point, I need a really convincing reason to play other targets.
peace,
4eak
@4eak: I would squeeze in a permanent destroyer: AoD, or Primus, elephat man. Against lands,thopter foundry, enchantress, or something off the wall like Stax you really need something.
I would even say a permanent destroyer is more important than elesh or Iona.
Elesh is good versus the mirror. But against the other tribal decks(cept merfolk which most people don't side her in anyway) you are usually favored anyway. It's quite often a win more card,especially if you are sporting firestorm main.
Iona I haven't been impressed with lately. Most decks can deal with her quickly, even something like enchantress. I know she is meant for anti combo,but I think Sadistic Hippie is better in that slot. Sadistic Hippie + Cabal Therapies= tough storming. Ant has unusually easy time bouncing Iona.
But yeah find some guy to kill permanents.