Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
This is kind of where I was going back to before: the deck should be running Darksteel Citadel in multiples, if not four. I use it as an alternative to Wasteland. In Post-based builds, you're looking to advance your resources as opposed to setting yourself back. It's different in Legacy than Vintage, because you don't have Moxen and broken accelerates to cheat your way out of mana screw. In Legacy and especially the Post builds, you need to develop your resources.
Wasteland is great if you're playing a more taxing variety of MUD with additional sphere effects, but I just don't think it's worth the space here. I would feel so much more comfortable dropping a Darksteel Citadel turn one as opposed to a Wasteland or some other mana source that is sure to be destroyed by an opposing Wasteland, even if sequenced correctly.
I know I'm the guy who is coming in and saying Lodestone Golem and Wasteland might not be the way to go here, but what I can offer is some outside perspective from someone who is a closet-MUD fanatic and player and has paid attention to and studied whatever video there is out there to determine the deck's strengths and weaknesses - aside from the obvious general inconsistencies the deck presents.
Don't hack me to pieces for trying something a little different here, but does anyone think a build with
Razormane Masticore - which seems extremely good in this deck right now - could be used in conjunction with, say, a singleton or pair of
Ghost Towns? Ghost Town could help feed Masticore as a de facto Squee of sorts, in addition to allowing you to play a freshly drawn business spell that you don't want to discard. During your opponent's turn, bring the Town back to your hand and discard it to Masticore.
Just an idea.
When I first got into legacy with this deck I couldn't afford wastelands at the time so i started with citadel and after playing with both I found I always preferred citadel. Wasteland sometimes leads to free wins but it is really just wishful thinking that you will get them a lot of the time. MUD doesn't have a whole lot of trouble getting free wins either because of 3sphere and chalice.
While I don't necessarily agree with cutting lodestone, given how little success the deck has seen relative to others, it isn't unreasonable to want to move in a different direction.
I have played Masticore in the board before for death and taxes and given how much blanks the deck draws sometimes I can see it being reasonable in the main. Ghost town is a little deep but it might be ok? Im not sure. Maybe just moving away from the 12 post completely could be the solution, I have had some success with Daretti welder MUD before cruise, i haven't played it since khans (i dropped it for no particular reason i can remember) so I might try exploring that again. I think what we mainly need to look for is cheaper ways to have an effect on the game, which is the main reason that drew me to Daretti in the first place. I'm not entirely sure where we should go from here but I do think we have to go smaller, not bigger, so we don't just get tempoed or wasted out of the game before we can drop our bombs.
I might try a daretti list. Cutting forgemaster and some of that package for masticore (does a good job of enabling welder) and some extra card draw like staff of nin or maybe coercive portal.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Masticore? Serious? Against what deck? If you play it right youll smash aggro decks.
cutting lodestone is wrong. I dont like his body, but he wins so many games against combo decks + decent damage per turn ratio. Im happy dropping t2 lodestone if i dont have a trinisphere on hand.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
Masticore? Serious? Against what deck? If you play it right youll smash aggro decks.
cutting lodestone is wrong. I dont like his body, but he wins so many games against combo decks + decent damage per turn ratio. Im happy dropping t2 lodestone if i dont have a trinisphere on hand.
Masticore beats pretty much every playable creature in the format. The only exceptions I can think of right now are a giant KotR and TNN or eldrazi. It kills delver, Young pyro and friends, SFM, DRS, lingering souls tokens, mother of runes, infects creatures, snapcaster, baleful strix, the list goes on and on and that is just the list of things it kills. If there is a big goyf you can deal three and attack into it because of first strike, same for tasigur, even griselbrand. It also enables welder, survives burn spells and its hard to block and burn out as well. It is always a 4 turn clock as well with little commitment on your part. An added plus is that it beats the deck death and taxes by itself. Even if it gets plowed after you discard you probably didn't just discard a useful card but a redundant land or lock piece, as this deck has a lot of poor draws.
I'm also not saying that cutting Lodestone is correct, I am planning on playing the full four in the deck I'm currently working on.
Edit: I'm going to try to post a list tonight so it can be critiqued in context.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BTY
Masticore beats pretty much every playable creature in the format. The only exceptions I can think of right now are a giant KotR and TNN or eldrazi. It kills delver, Young pyro and friends, SFM, DRS, lingering souls tokens, mother of runes, infects creatures, snapcaster, baleful strix, the list goes on and on and that is just the list of things it kills. If there is a big goyf you can deal three and attack into it because of first strike, same for tasigur, even griselbrand. It also enables welder, survives burn spells and its hard to block and burn out as well. It is always a 4 turn clock as well with little commitment on your part. An added plus is that it beats the deck death and taxes by itself. Even if it gets plowed after you discard you probably didn't just discard a useful card but a redundant land or lock piece, as this deck has a lot of poor draws.
I'm also not saying that cutting Lodestone is correct, I am planning on playing the full four in the deck I'm currently working on.
Edit: I'm going to try to post a list tonight so it can be critiqued in context.
A kill rate of 1 creature a turn isnt very good.
A combination of welder does seem nice, i dont know if people still use welder? Havent seen him in a while.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I have been pretty successful with a Welder/Daretti version that is running scuttling dumb dumb. (scuttling doomengine) Mostly as an Alternate to Sundering Titan. There is so many things that cannot block him, and if they do, they're taking 6. He's even funnier when you chain a daretti + welder to the face of your opponent. The more Hollywood mentions razorkitten Masticore, the more I want to try out again.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
A kill rate of 1 creature a turn isnt very good.
A combination of welder does seem nice, i dont know if people still use welder? Havent seen him in a while.
I was talking about using it in a welder shell. I haven't played it a whole lot with it in post variants besides out of the sideboard, even still though kill one creature a turn is still reasonable if it allows you to attack for 5 a turn. Killing creatures is never bad, even if it is slow, and the first strike is always relevant in combat. I'll try to get my list up here later tonight or tomorrow morning.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Even though I hate double posting this is probably going to be the only time when I can get this up. Anyway here is the list I have been trying. I haven't tested it much so a lot of this is still theoretical and I have no idea how if a lot of these numbers are reasonable/warranted/necessary but this is what I'm planning on tweaking in the few weeks.
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Razormane Masticore
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Myr Battlesphere
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
3 Daretti, Scrapper Savant
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain
SB
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
2 Blood Moon
Firstly I just want to state I have no idea if this is aware close to correct or not but this is where I have settled for now.
I don't know if I want to play grim monolith or not. I could be wrong for not including it but in testing so far I have been benefiting greatly from the extra threat density. Maybe after I play some more it may prove that grim monolith is necessary or/and great in the deck but until then I'm going to stick with none and see how well it performs. It is worth noting that monolith plays really well with welder, allows for turn 2 Daretti's and has a lot of advantages but right now I think I want to be more threat dense.
Another card I omitted was forgemaster for a couple reasons. It does create some tension with welder, you want random artifacts in play to weld out and forgemaster wants to eat the same random artifacts. I also kind of feel like Forgemaster leads to the deck getting too cute and I'd rather just get back to more simple things, sometimes you just need a beater to get the job done and you don't need to get to fancy.
Razormane Masticore has been pretty good at beating down and clearing the way for other creatures. Enabling Welder is nice and a big reason I like it right now. One of the biggest problems with Welder MUD I have had in the past was no great way to get stuff into the yard without opposing discard, counterspells, and what not. I don't want to play cards like Faithless looting that lead to no chalices and having 7 ways to dump fatties into the yard while also threatening the opponent has been pretty solid.
I have 4 Wurmcoil because I think it is the best creature that doesn't have any broken activated abilities. 6 life a turn is great, it beats almost every creature and it has a nice built in resilience to removal. Flipping Wurmcoils with welder is fantastic, especially with one in the yard and one in play.
2 Myr Battlesphere is just to take advantage of goblin welder. So far two has been a good number, I don't want to draw many and I really only want to dump it into the graveyard for welder to reanimate.
2 Steel hellkite is my catch all answer to whatever nonsense my opponent is playing.
I'm running blood moons just because I want ways to punish greedy manabases and make random match ups that would probably be bad like Lands or Loam Pox into positive or winnable match ups. I know I want 4 in the 75, I don't know exactly how I want to split it yet but 2/2 has seemed fine. Blood Moon helps quite a bit against other black midrange decks that seem to be picking, mainly shardless bug.
2 Staff of Nins help grind and also get more fuel for Daretti or just more threats.
1 Staff of Domination to just kind of win when I draw it with Metalworker. It might just be better as an Ugin, Karn, Spine, or a 3rd blood moon.
For the sideboard, I think it is kind of a mess. I know I want the blood moons somewhere, they may just be better in the main but having two hedges kind of in match ups where it isn't stellar. I can bring in the other two when I want them or have two easy cards to board out when I need to. I also want at least two tormod's crypts, Dredge and Reanimator are powerful so I want a way to deal with them. I want two spines for sneak and show, it combos with welder, and it just answers a lot of nonsense out of midrange/control decks. I probably want Ratchet Bomb as a way of cleaning up small creatures and revokers are never bad. I definitely want Trinisphere or another sphere effect for storm, trinisphere seems like it has the most impact of the spheres so I'm running that for now. I've been thinking about changing sundering titan into an Ugin or Platinum Angel or Emperion, but I'm not sure yet.
Anyway with my limited testing I've been pretty satisfied with the deck, maybe extended testing will show otherwise but so far I think it is pretty reasonable. Anyway thoughts, criticisms, or any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BTY
Even though I hate double posting this is probably going to be the only time when I can get this up. Anyway here is the list I have been trying. I haven't tested it much so a lot of this is still theoretical and I have no idea how if a lot of these numbers are reasonable/warranted/necessary but this is what I'm planning on tweaking in the few weeks.
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Razormane Masticore
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Myr Battlesphere
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
3 Daretti, Scrapper Savant
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain
SB
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
2 Blood Moon
Firstly I just want to state I have no idea if this is aware close to correct or not but this is where I have settled for now.
I don't know if I want to play grim monolith or not. I could be wrong for not including it but in testing so far I have been benefiting greatly from the extra threat density. Maybe after I play some more it may prove that grim monolith is necessary or/and great in the deck but until then I'm going to stick with none and see how well it performs. It is worth noting that monolith plays really well with welder, allows for turn 2 Daretti's and has a lot of advantages but right now I think I want to be more threat dense.
Another card I omitted was forgemaster for a couple reasons. It does create some tension with welder, you want random artifacts in play to weld out and forgemaster wants to eat the same random artifacts. I also kind of feel like Forgemaster leads to the deck getting too cute and I'd rather just get back to more simple things, sometimes you just need a beater to get the job done and you don't need to get to fancy.
Razormane Masticore has been pretty good at beating down and clearing the way for other creatures. Enabling Welder is nice and a big reason I like it right now. One of the biggest problems with Welder MUD I have had in the past was no great way to get stuff into the yard without opposing discard, counterspells, and what not. I don't want to play cards like Faithless looting that lead to no chalices and having 7 ways to dump fatties into the yard while also threatening the opponent has been pretty solid.
I have 4 Wurmcoil because I think it is the best creature that doesn't have any broken activated abilities. 6 life a turn is great, it beats almost every creature and it has a nice built in resilience to removal. Flipping Wurmcoils with welder is fantastic, especially with one in the yard and one in play.
2 Myr Battlesphere is just to take advantage of goblin welder. So far two has been a good number, I don't want to draw many and I really only want to dump it into the graveyard for welder to reanimate.
2 Steel hellkite is my catch all answer to whatever nonsense my opponent is playing.
I'm running blood moons just because I want ways to punish greedy manabases and make random match ups that would probably be bad like Lands or Loam Pox into positive or winnable match ups. I know I want 4 in the 75, I don't know exactly how I want to split it yet but 2/2 has seemed fine. Blood Moon helps quite a bit against other black midrange decks that seem to be picking, mainly shardless bug.
2 Staff of Nins help grind and also get more fuel for Daretti or just more threats.
1 Staff of Domination to just kind of win when I draw it with Metalworker. It might just be better as an Ugin, Karn, Spine, or a 3rd blood moon.
For the sideboard, I think it is kind of a mess. I know I want the blood moons somewhere, they may just be better in the main but having two hedges kind of in match ups where it isn't stellar. I can bring in the other two when I want them or have two easy cards to board out when I need to. I also want at least two tormod's crypts, Dredge and Reanimator are powerful so I want a way to deal with them. I want two spines for sneak and show, it combos with welder, and it just answers a lot of nonsense out of midrange/control decks. I probably want Ratchet Bomb as a way of cleaning up small creatures and revokers are never bad. I definitely want Trinisphere or another sphere effect for storm, trinisphere seems like it has the most impact of the spheres so I'm running that for now. I've been thinking about changing sundering titan into an Ugin or Platinum Angel or Emperion, but I'm not sure yet.
Anyway with my limited testing I've been pretty satisfied with the deck, maybe extended testing will show otherwise but so far I think it is pretty reasonable. Anyway thoughts, criticisms, or any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Since you run red;
have you considered godo, bandit warlord? (5)(R) 3/3 EOT: place a equipment on the battlefield + samurai and godo have a extra combat phase
Back in the day i played this to get a free batterskull into play then next turn get a double attack with it attached (or not) to godo. Also godo is a human + magus of the moon true cavern of souls.
Funny since i started playing scroll rack (to some succes i like to think) i started thinking about bonfire of the damned again. Would be nice to use some miracle fueled one sided board wipe / win con (massive fireball) with it.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
Since you run red;
have you considered godo, bandit warlord? (5)(R) 3/3 EOT: place a equipment on the battlefield + samurai and godo have a extra combat phase
Back in the day i played this to get a free batterskull into play then next turn get a double attack with it attached (or not) to godo. Also godo is a human + magus of the moon true cavern of souls.
Funny since i started playing scroll rack (to some succes i like to think) i started thinking about bonfire of the damned again. Would be nice to use some miracle fueled one sided board wipe / win con (massive fireball) with it.
I have not considered it. 6 mana is a lot for a creature that dies to bolt, and sure batterskull is great but I'd rather just run wurmcoil. Godo is expensive, sometimes it can be hard to get to six mana through wastelands, and it can't be welded in if I discard it with Daretti or Masticore. The fact that it isn't an artifact itself makes it a lot less appealing to me.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Top 4ed with Ghost Town MUD yesterday at the local. Ghost Town worked well with Razormane, allowing me to play an Ugin off the top of my deck. Masticore shot down Young Pyromancer.
I also Jester's Cap'd out three Sword of the Meek against Thopters, which sealed the game.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Top 4ed with Ghost Town MUD yesterday at the local. Ghost Town worked well with Razormane, allowing me to play an Ugin off the top of my deck. Masticore shot down Young Pyromancer.
I also Jester's Cap'd out three Sword of the Meek against Thopters, which sealed the game.
Jester's Cap, nice Mister. How was your list performing overall? Thats out-of-the-box. I can see the appeal of Ghost Town, did you have Crucible of Worlds? Also was it Razormane Masticore or just Masticore? The latter is currently on my list, but a 5/5 First Strike is just much more beefy.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Hollywood, I'm very interested in seeing your list. It sounds like something I may want to try to incorporate into my existing list, or perhaps try a completely different list.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I am horrified by a i think sub par razormane masticore/ ghost town combo. But if you insist on trying it at least play eternity vessel next to ghost town :laugh:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
When paired with Ugin, I don't see how Razormane is bad at all. 3 is fine, 6 is insane.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Jester's Cap, nice Mister. How was your list performing overall? Thats out-of-the-box. I can see the appeal of Ghost Town, did you have Crucible of Worlds? Also was it Razormane Masticore or just Masticore? The latter is currently on my list, but a 5/5 First Strike is just much more beefy.
Razormane Masticore; I run him as a two-of. Ghost Town also has other neat applications in the deck as well:
a.) I run Smokestacks in my list, so I'm able to use Ghost Town to recover from a situation where my board will be cleared with an opponent's board.
b.) Ghost Town can make Liliana less effective in protecting key spells. With a likely resurgence of BUG, it's a nice utility to consider.
c.) The obvious interaction to "Squee" it away with Razormane Masticore.
d.) Has the ability to protect itself against land destruction spells.
e.) Adds a layer of trickery based on the card's obscurity against turn-one Wasteland.
f.) Bounces back to your hand in the event you need mana to escape Rishadan Port shenanigans.
Jester's Cap is a one-of in my sideboard. It's a nice catch-all to cripple decks like the one I played locally. It's just a good card for what it does and can dynamically castrate an opponent's core engine. I can see it crippling 12-Post, as well.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
The other day i worked on the Cloudpost variant and gave it a spin instead of my ussual Turbo "all-in" Welder build. After i played a number of games against different decks (Punishing Maverick, Patriot, ANT, Reanimator) i decided i will stick with the list and tune it for a little bit. My main was 61 cards and my board was 16 cards. Actually i am torn with what to take out of the board to get down to 15 cards. Also i really like to put Ugin #3 in the main, but there is no room.
I tried Scarecrone and Razormane Masticore. I never got to see Razormane, so i will need more testing. But i imagine it being solid when resolved. Scarecrone was actually pretty much fun. Along with Lodestone Golem i was able to keep recur and block with the Golem and do some other cool trick. Also i resolved Ugin quite a few times and even resolved it T2 versus Punishing Maverick. How awesome was that. Aside from Pithing Needle it is near unstoppable. Also played against the nightmare matchup Patriot (with Stifle main) and after boarding in Revoker, Grid, Razormane and an extra Ugin i felt like it was grindy but pretty doable. All in all i was enjoying some solid games of Magic the Gathering.
Main:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Scarecrone
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard:
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Trinisphere
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
This is what i run now; very minor changes.
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Scroll Rack
4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
2 buried ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
Now i did had some CRAZY IDEAS, i just couldnt make them work. But maybe someone else can.
Since i played scroll rack and i liked it so much i went looking for cards that could go with it. I tried RED for his. RED gives acces to Bonfire of the Damned- a assymetrical board whipe aka finisher when you have a lot of post mana. Plus i figured chaos warp was a nice card. Not only is it instant removal for permanents-it can also cheat in ugin or big guys with scroll rack shenanigans. Anyway i couldnt get it going, but feel free to try.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
This is what i run now; very minor changes.
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Scroll Rack
4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
2 buried ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
Now i did had some CRAZY IDEAS, i just couldnt make them work. But maybe someone else can.
Since i played scroll rack and i liked it so much i went looking for cards that could go with it. I tried RED for his. RED gives acces to Bonfire of the Damned- a assymetrical board whipe aka finisher when you have a lot of post mana. Plus i figured chaos warp was a nice card. Not only is it instant removal for permanents-it can also cheat in ugin or big guys with scroll rack shenanigans. Anyway i couldnt get it going, but feel free to try.
I see you have changed Scracrone's, probably for Buried Ruins. What was the reason for that change?
Although Bonfire shenanigans are cool along with scroll rack, i think that Ugin is good enough on its own. Probably would be Ugin nr 3 before running Bonfire.
I am interested with Chaos Warp. The problem is that you shuffle the deck before putting the top card into play. Because it is part of the spell resolving you cant interact with it. A card that basicly dies the same (without being able to shuffle away opponents cards on the field) is Temporal Aperture. That card used to be freaking hot in the times of Wildfire in standard. The excitement of every activation (sometimes even 2 or 3 due to Voltaic Key) it was amazing. Sometime you would just flip lands and sometimes bombs after bombs (Covetous Dragon, Wildfire, Phyrexian Colossus, etc). I will probably try one or two instead of the Scarecrone's. Problem is with flipping Chalice (cast for 0) and 24 lands makes it a bit cheesy. But on the other hand it can flip an Ugin for just 5 mana (7).
