What would, in your experience, be the main differences between LED dredge, non LED dredge and manaless dredge other than the explosiveness of the LED verion? Is LED dredge a far superior deck or does each deck have its own pros and cons?
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What would, in your experience, be the main differences between LED dredge, non LED dredge and manaless dredge other than the explosiveness of the LED verion? Is LED dredge a far superior deck or does each deck have its own pros and cons?
You may refer to the Manaless Dredge thread for specifics on that version, but in my experience, the manaless deck seeks to sacrifice some speed in order to run around blue disruption to employ a "combo" finish that doesn't involve a lot of spells. Manaless is a bit better against targeted disruption like Extraction and Extirpate; it also weakens a lot of commonly played "other" disruption like Hymn to Tourach, Thalia, Liliana, Therapy, and other things like that. Both kinds of decks have the same cards but play differently so whatever you feel most comfortable with will surely be the superior version for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Txisvurger
Some more points of view:Quote:
Originally Posted by RThomas-
In a meta with Discard-Spells all over the place (I'm looking at you Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize) LED-Dredge should be better than all other forms of the archetype, because it doesn't get timewalked by them most of the time. Most important parts of the deck are 4-offs, so you can rely on surviving one early discard spell hitting LED or draw-spell. It's very redundant, streamlined and still has the ability to walk through blue disruption with ease.
Manaless offers more fuel from the grave, is MUCH better to survive Extraction-Effects, a little bit better against blue-disruption, worse against RiP-Decks, and weaker against Storm imo.
LED-less seems outdated since the printing of Looting.
So, choose your weapons. ;)
Congrats on the results. I don't get it why you don't see much more dredge decks topping events. Right now there is not much gravehate despite Deathrite Shaman. And shaman does nothing against LED Dredge...there must be something overseen by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by grip
Eh...people playing Aluren, Burn and Werewolf Stompy arguing Dredge is dead and has no rights to exist?! Dafuq am I reading??
As mentioned above you should refer to the corresponding thread for details but in summary:Quote:
Originally Posted by Txisvurger
Explosiveness:
LED > LEDless > Manaless
The first ones can race fast combo (or not) decks with poor sideboarding but in contrast with manaless is by far less sensitive to countermagic and surgical extraction which is an advantage off course but it has a lower rasponse capability to hard situations.
As an example:
If go against elves which dropped 5 -7 green man in the fisrts 2 turns probably you're done with manaless but not with other versions. But please do not take this a true fact but just as an example. Moreover you dont depend on your opening like manaless does.
Im concern top manaless i think that it resilience against countermagic and extraction effects are the only advantages.
Just take your choice! Dredge is always a bomb deck!
GC.
Went 4-1 on a local store tournament. I'll write an report as soon as I can. List went perfectly.
Miracles (2-0)
GWb Maverick (2-1)
GWb Maverick (2-0)
Enchantress (0-2) (damn you, Elephant Grass)
Esperblade (2-0)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
Slamming with Ghouls. Such an awesome card.
This is my third time writing this, my blackberry keeps deleting it right before I got to post. Either way, I have been lurking around here for quite a while, and this thread has really helped me get better at playing the deck to the point that I have been doing really well at my local weekly's with my LED-less build. I am on the verge of biting the bullet and trading my FoWs for LEDs. I'm scared to remove my Dread Return package, but that's a topic for another post.
I want to make sure I understand a line of play regarding LED and faithless looting. I've tried digging through the thread, but either I'm missing it or am really bad at searching.
My hand:
City of Brass
Faithless Looting
LED
Troll
Stinkweed Imp
I play City, I play LED. I cast Faithless looting. Can I respond by cracking my LED to float 3 red, discarding my hand and dredge the Troll and the Imp, then discard them, flashback Looting with the 3 red I floated and dredge them again on turn 1?
I'm pretty sure I can (and that is the whole point of LED) but I wanted to confirm. Thanks for the help.
It's not the whole point of LED but yes that's a line of play and works just like you said.
Just remember that you have to explicitly state that you are retaining priority after casting Faithless Looting or else it doesn't work. Saw someone lose the third game of a match because of that at a 1k, it was pretty miserable.
Does anyone run a couple Dakmor Salvage for additional mana-support?
I've been running 2 in the main, together with the 12 usual mana-sources. I have some Tarnished & Undiscovered in the side also.
The reason is not just Wasteland, but to also activate Coliseum after a T1 combo play (potentially), should it have been the only mana source I drew in my initial grip.
What's the consensus on Dakmor here guys and gals?
Good or Bad?
Not sure how you're going to activate a Coliseum with the Salvage.. but if you find a way to do so tell me more about it ;)
Otherwise in a non-Bloodghast-Deck I'm not fond of it, it dredges for so little and the most usefull application is as a manasource for Ashen Ghouls after bording and for them I'm allready boarding in some lands.. Yes there've been times were my land was wasted and I couldn't return some Ghouls, but these times are not that common since most matchups were you board in Ghouls your opponent don't play Wastelands or at least not the full playset.
Whoops, didn't quite read that too well.. ha ha.
For those of you who do play with these, what's your deck look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
And is Ashen Ghoul a sideboard-only card?
Yes strictly a sideboard card to combat extraction.
My Mainboard is mostly Quadlaser, sometimes -1 Thug +1 Darkblast and/or -1 something (Ichorid mostly) +1 Land.
Sideboard is allways different but if I do play Ghouls there (depends on the meta) I will add 2-3 lands (depending how many I play main) there.
I prefer the traditional quadlazer sb:
1x Ancient Grudge
4x Nature's Claim
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Ashen Ghoul
Game two I almost always want to board in 4x Nature's Claim, 1x Ancient Grudge, and the three lands. Of course this will depend on the opposing deck, however, a good amount of the time thats my strat.
I have a question for those of you not playing quadlazer mainly because I play Dread Return with Flayer of the Hatebound.(I dont know which is better...) Do you find it hard combo win when your using Natures Claim G2? Or do you side out the combo?
Hi everyone! I've been wanting to play some Legacy again, and as always, I want to play dredge! I was playing Manaless before, but it's lack of explosivness is pushing towards LED(less) Dredge.
As I have some school exams till June, I can't really spend a lot of time on forums, but I'll catch up later; I would just like to ask, what are the 2 most standards list for Led & Ledless dredge for the moment?
thanks a lot!
After being a Manaless player for quite a while, I think you need to think about two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintS
How common is DRS, Scavenging Ooze type cards that can remove things in your grave, and whether you have LED's!
If you don't, why are you here! :laugh::laugh: :tongue:
The LEDless dredge list is very subpar compared to running LED's, and running a small amount of threats, as in Ichorid, Ahsen Ghoul etc., in LED/LEDless-dredge can be problematic against meta's running lots of DRS decks.
I've personally found Quadlaser to be my favoured list, as I don't find the Dread Return Package as playable here as in the Manaless lists, but that's just me - I'm sure many here favour the DR. Package too.
hey guys, im an LED player who runs MD flayer combo kill in his list. i was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on playing against stoneblade games two and three, right now I'm pretty much only trying to blow them out as fast as possible and it just doesnt work lol. right now just the play of snapcaster, surgical removing everything relevant kills me. any help would be much appreciated. right now my current sideboard is this
4 leyine of sanctity (most grave hate i face is the form of tormods and nihil spellbomb)
1 Elesh Norn
4 nature's claim
1 cabal therapy
1 dread return
1 Iona
2 firestorm
1 Ancient grudge
Deck: Dredge http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif
Threats
1 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
Lands
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ichorid
2 Street Wraith
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
2 Cephalid Coliseum
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics
I'm curious about few things. Dropping the Dread Return package from the main sounds powerful, but as I've seen it so far, you lose game 1 when 3 things happen:
1.) Your opponent exiles all your bridges
2.) A combo deck goes off
3.) You fail to dredge
The Dread Return helps in the first 2 situations. I see Combo as being the most troublesome matchup, and Griselbrand has basically been a mind twist for their handsize with a 7/7 lifelinker in play. By that, I'm referring to Cabal Therapies and flashbacks.
The third scenario I see adding more engine pieces would help against, but are you really gaining anything by putting more draw spells in your deck? I worry that only having 4x Ichorids and 4x Cabal Therapy will actually weaken Bridge from Below, which is the primary win condition if you don't have a single Dread Return maindeck. I've had games where 3 Bridges dredge early, and a single Bolt exiles them all on my Draw step. Now I'm supposed to win just off Ichorid damage?
I'm also torn about whether to run any Dread Return targets in the sideboard. Right now I have the Street Wraiths coming in for BGx decks, but that was just empty space I had due to not caring about a second dedicated DR target. I'm most worried about targets for the combo matchup, but is there another matchup where a DR target could be clutch? I would much rather keep draw spells in against all the grindy Deathrite Shaman decks than run Elesh Norn, for example. As it is, I'm running Flame-Kin Zealot for Combo, but I don't know with this deck whether it's better percentage to run more careful study, or to board in a FKZ. Girselbrand can strip their entire hand, but FKZ can K.O. them after they Show and Tell.
As far as lands go, anyone have thoughts on me taking out 2x Cephalid Coliseum for 2x Careful Study? As I see it the only reason you want 2 lands in play is so you can activate the Coliseum...circular reasoning. The other reason to not cut lands is the zero land hands you can draw. I did the math, and cutting 2 lands increased my 0 land hands by 5%. But if the only land I drew was a Cephalid Coliseum, the only spell it would cast was Breakthrough. A single Coliseum hand is always a mulligan for me. I moved the other 2 copies to the sideboard thinking that against blue decks, having the slow, but uncounterable threshold ability is still great.
This is what I got so far. I do great at tournaments, but...this is a Dredge deck, and nobody comes prepared since I play it infrequently.
First of all I don't like Flame-Kin Zealot as it demands bridges in your gy to do something at all. And even if you get it to do something it will just win one turn faster. Most of the time you will win anyway one turn later because after you "comboed off" you can strip your opponent of his most valuable spells and assemble a huge army of the undead. FKZ is useless against prison effects like Elefant Grass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
If you want to play the Dread Return package I would use Flayer of the Hatebound in addition to Griselbrand. Flayer can win without bridges, goes through prisons and turns your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts. My biggest concern with Flayer is the "need" for a third Dread Return.
You should not cut Cephalid Coliseums and Careful Study. Study is the best card to cast out of coliseum. It also helps in postboard games finding your antihate pieces. I would rather cut a breakthrough before cutting studies.
Coliseum on the other hand is uncounterable draw 3 (ok I know there is stifle) which is pretty useful. You may also do things like: Coliseum > Study > drop dredgers > next turn another coliseum > led for blue and win. Happens more often than one may think :D
If I would play with Dread Return + Targets ever again I would be playing something like this:
Deck: "Dread Return Dredge" http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif
//Maindeck
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Maindeck
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
//Maindeck
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
//Sideboard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen
But after switching forth and back between Quadlaser and DR-Dredge I finally settled with Quadlaser.
It is more consistent, especially post board. I never felt to slow G1, even against most combo decks.
It is just so much easier to grind out games 2 and 3 with the Quadlaserbuild.
Another good Idea may be the Quadlaser Maindeck with the addition of 1-2 Dread Returns. You can reanimate giant trolls with it while ammassing large numbers of zombies. Sometimes even DR on Ichorid is enough after comboing off to generate those extra tokens :-)
Mfg Mindlash