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Not much LED decks in my meta. There's one guy who runs it but wasn't playing it that night. I'm still pretty new to lands. I had to sell my old lands deck for college money a year ago :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Mainly people scoop when I would waste/ Loam lock them and yeah, make them draw out too. Banefire is okay as a finisher. Emrakul is good once you cast him anyways.
At least you can turn your hobby into cash if need be. You could condense your list and give room for better %s. What decks are giving you trouble?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicanto
Goblins/ Elves because they're pretty fast and sometimes I can't get chasm/ Tabernacle/ bridge/ propaganda out in play quick enough. I need to have some K-grips instead of the Ray of Revelations in case I do need to destroy a bridge and attack with Emrakul/ Geist/ manlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Nic- Fit: played this recently and don't really know how to get around this. I haven't played legacy very long and when I played a year ago, already the decks have changed a bit since then.
Has anyone considered the land Unstable Frontier to turn Chasm into a basic land until end of turn? And I have been reading the Lands primer on mtgsalvation too. There was some talk of using Cursed Scroll in place of Punishing Fire. Maybe I will change out my Howling Mines for 3 Crop Rotation instead.
Scroll doesn't work well with all the singletons, too slow to kill a T1 DRS (or lackey), easy AD target, and can't be recovered as fast as fires. It's a win-more card. You also have 3 howling mine so that's a nombo right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicanto
Is frontier supposed to be mana fixing on your chasm? Just play city of brass then because with chasm out you don't take damage.
Goblins gets better with p.fire. If you don't have fire then use 4 maze. That was the standard config before fires and works more consistently in your list with multiple manabonds and draw effects. I would look to add 2-3 Intuitions because resolving one against creature spamming decks should be gg (ie elves). Piles take a while to think about though, but it can expedite a Marit Lage kill too.
Nic has ooze which needs to be answered. Pfire answers this pretty handily... Deed wipes the accelerants, so amass a board presence before this. They don't have waste, so Maze + pfire will give you enough time to setup a lock before they stick a thrun. Look at a nic fit list again. There is nothing scary about it. Lands has more than enough tools to beat them g1 and they have loads of dead cards. SB chalice on one makes port shine and kgrip is a beast here. They may just be better at racing you with howling mine.
Alright, nix the Scroll and the Howling Mines (just need to figure out what cards to buy now...) And frontier was supposed to be another "stage" on chasm to not lose the life. Like on the upkeep of my turn, change chasm into a basic land and not lose the cumulative life.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Current oracle text:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicanto
"Cumulative upkeep—Pay 2 life. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)"
So the trigger will still hit the stack at the start of the upkeep and resolve regardless if chasm now changes to a basic land and loses all abilities in the upkeep.
Ohh ok. I and some people on Gatherer were thinking that it would not be cumulative upkeep. Thanks for clearing that up!Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Hey all, my first real post on these forums. I mostly just look over this post (and the one on MTG Salvation) for any new ideas or approaches people talk about on Lands. I've been playing it for a little bit over a year and a half. I've been working on experimental lists for a while. I took one to GP DC and it was way too inconsistent.
I recently did a write up on a local tournament I went to. It's a bit too long for this forum read, so it's on a google Doc.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1..._ok/edit?pli=1
Basically, I won all of our bad match ups and lost 2 of our decent - good match ups. My breakers were not good enough to get me into top 8.
I'm unsure if I am going to stick with crop rotation. 3 feels like too much. I only ever really want to see 1 in a given match up really and I found myself to be drawing multiples of them much too often. Since I've made the cut, I see them just the right amount.
Bojuka Bog is a great card, but I don't think it has as great of an effect that we want it to. I would prefer it to be a tranquil thicket, or bump up my groves.
I wouldn't play this deck with less than 3 groves since DRS decks are so heavily played and he can really hamper the game plan. DRS has to die. I'd snap cut the Bog for a Grove #3 and I am close to adding a fourth in my own list. Grove+Pfire also makes the deck less reliant on Mazes and Fastbonds for survival (critical vs Delver) and can buy lots of time vs Stoneforge packages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jastern101
Crop Rotation here seems fine because you have Marit Lage pieces to assemble and you can sac a an early thicket or Twest to then recycle. Also, getting utility lands into play EOT saves time and mana from main phase Loaming and using a Twest. It's easy to play around taxing counters with it and responding to a Wasteland basically acts as a Stifle. You may be able to use Riftstone Portal here.
I am trying out entomb now to serve as an extra Pfire, Loam, and land target.
Yea, I will be cutting the bog for a third Grove. I personally haven't had trouble finding Grove, I've had more trouble finding P.Fires for the moments when I need them. But I do prefer consistency over the few possible chances(which haven't even occurred in the past 3+ tournaments I've gone to) where crop rotating into Bojuka Bog acts as a groundbreaking play.
I wasn't stating that Crop Rotation has been underwhelming or anything close to that. The issue with Crop Rotation is that it isn't a necessary spell. Those two slots are the most flexible slots in the deck. I've debated over changing them out to allow me to run Manabond, 2nd EE's + Oblivion Stone, Gamble/Entomb, ect... I suppose the issue is, I haven't found the cards to fill the slots to make myself satisfied with this version of the overall deck. Granted, Crop rotation has been the closest I've found in doing that. I was stating that I would cut them for Gamble/Entomb because if you don't have Life from the Loam active, then you are probably hurting which both of those tutors solve, and if it is active, Entomb simply requires you to Life the land you would've gotten with Crop rotation and then spend (one of) your turn's land drop on it.
I am interested in your thoughts on entomb. Have you tested the slots you have entomb in as Gamble as well? if so, which would you prefer?
In the sight of Rest in Peace/GY removal, I feel that I would prefer Gamble depending on how you would sideboard post-games.
Between the 1CMC tutors it depends what you are gearing towards. You lose a card with all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jastern101
Gamble is no doubt the most powerful, but you could be blown out by its draw back effect and timewalk yourself.
I have been liking the Entomb in my list, but I do have more black mana with the extra Tar Pit and an Urborg. It has been serving as a low powered Intuition, but has been quite impressive competing with decks running taxing counters and DRS. I am in favor of Entomb for Lands because I can EOT a critical piece with the most information available, which has great synergy with the control element of the deck. Although it cannot get a fastbond, I know Entomb won't hurt my hand and this makes the card itself become less of a liability because the target will always get binned. The limitation of only binning something can be annoying for a topdeck without a Grove in play.
Crop Rotation being only limited to transfiguring lands doesn't get your Loam engine active nor reliably complete the Pfire combo. There is no Cradle in the deck to look for, but having Marit Lage and winning the game can justify this inclusion.
Etutor gets you a fastbond or sb lock piece guaranteed. I never liked going for another color now with Pfire in the deck, but some still make it work. It paints a target on what to counter or AD the next turn and it doesn't assemble a Loam engine or Pfire combo (crucible is loose).
Vs decks that are running RiP I probably already take out Entomb to add EE or Kgrip/AD, so I wouldn't know how sb games would change. I like the tutors to make G1 more consistent, but in either case they are easily boarded out (similar to Manabaond).
I need some help guys. I'm a dark depths playing testing out this shell (lands Shell). I goldfished a few games and it looks like it has some fast plays that can get depths out quick. The more relevant part is its consistency in getting there. Between gamble and crop rotation and loam it seems like it gets there about as fast, probably a turn slower, as the all in build i was going for. From what I can tell just from the goldfishes it seems like p fire is going to be very good at holding creatures at bay / buying a few turns. Port answers a few of the problems that the all in build suffered from. I'm overall satisfied and looking forward to testing.
The issues / questions I have are...
The deck folds to combo game 1. With a sideboard devoted almost entirely to combo is that enough?
The deck also folds to blood moon. 3 grips in the board enough? doesn't seem like it. With S&T running moon and painter on the rise is this deck well positioned in the meta?
Not to sure about the control match ups but against miracles id imagine theres not much they can do especially if port is holding them back.
Is DRS a big enough problem to mess with loams or does p fire balance it out?
Also I'm sure this list could use a karakas somewhere. It was poached from a recent top 8 on october but was running 4 hexmages with almost no way to cast them. I swapped the hexmages for gambles.
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Savannah
1 Windswept Heath
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation
3 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
So you're running the "combo" lands build. First of all, this build doesn't auto-lose game 1 to other combo decks. You can turn 1 Manabond, dump full hand of lands with the 20/20 combo into play and then kill them the following turn. That's just about as fast as any other combo deck just using a creature to seal the deal.
I would reduce the number of Dark Depths you are running to 3 or 2. From people I've spoken to about the combo version, 2 seems to be the right number in the main. They sideboard the other 2 for the combo match ups so that they can go off faster.
Go ahead and increase the number of tranquil thickets you have with those available slots. The ability to cycle-dredge life from the loam with Manabond in play allows you to accelerate way to fast for any fair deck.
I would also reduce the number of Manabonds you are running to 2 or 3 of. most likely a 2 of. The card introduces many problems as it can make many keepable hands, although still keepable, very awkward to play out.
In addition to this, I personally am a fan of Ghost Quarter, running a basic forest (this will help against blood moons btw), and karakas.
Since you are running Savannah, I suggest cutting two of your Sphere of resistance and running 2 Thalia. She has the same effect but she makes for a great beater when you can't rely on your 20/20 combo.
From here I'll just go over your questions 1 by 1 to make sure I covered all of them:
1. Combo decks. You are a combo deck, There should be quite a few hands where you can make a 20/20 on turn 1 or 2 and race other combo decks just as quickly.
2. The deck does fold to blood moon however, there are very few decks that main deck blood moon. Some Miracle decks and Imperial Painter. Again, you are a combo deck with this version of lands. Your entire objective is to throw a 20/20 out there and get the kill as quickly as possible. Against miracles, this may be somewhat more difficult. Remember to port/wasteland them off their white at the end of their second main phase, then make your 20/20, kill them on your turn. Sideboarding K-grips is fine. 3 sounds like a fine number. I personally run 4 artifact/enchantment removal spells, however, I usually play the control/grindy version of lands. This will also help against back to basics, Helm/Rest in peace combo, Grindstone combo, Omni-tell, ect... Keep around 3-4 ench/artifact removals in your sideboard. I'm from MD and I know Speiss/Spoken with him quite a few times. Though not close friends, he seems like a really good player. Look at his lists for combo lands. He runs a different kind of artifact/enchantment hate. I'm not sure why, but I am sure he had good reason for it. So consider it.
3. You can help your Show and tell Match up by running Karakas. Helps a bunch when you don't have the other half of your combo, you can crop rotate into it and bounce whatever they put into play. post board you can put in your K-grips to deal with Blood Moon and Sneak Attack. Remember that with multiple red, Sneak attack + Emrakul will get around your Karakas.
4. You are absolutely right. Port is a big player in this match-up. You're objective is going to be to keep them off of playing helm(since you probably won't keep them off of Rest in Peace. They run Swords to Plowshares & Terminus. The two big spells that actually deal with your 20/20, so keep them ported off white when you go for your kill.
5. DRS can cause a lot of problems. Fortunately, all of the decks that play that guy really only run Force of Will as their counterspell. So usually a Punishing Fire is all you need to clear him off the board. Those decks also don't run removal for your 20/20. So if you can just throw that out there on the board before they get a chance to put a wasteland into play, you will win.
So... in all,
Just from glancing over your list, I would:
-2 Dark Depths
-2 Manabond
-1 Crop Rotation
(I just realized you are only running 3 Life from the loam)
+1 Life from the loam
+2 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Karakas
+1 Forest
You should check out some of Kurt Speiss' Lands builds. He took one to an invitational and an open and did well in both. Those are good lists to check out if you are trying to play the combo version of lands.
I like the fact that you're maxing out on the combo with 4 manabond. It makes you combo out way faster, but also makes you more vulnerable to graveyard-hate. Also, game two gamble or manabond can screw you over since you mostly can't afford to use them as you should have some hate in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
A solution could be to run Cabal Therapy as combohate, since its the only card available that functions from the yard (apart from raven's crime). You should run dryad arbor as well then, and enough fetchlands to reliably get it and flashback CT. The more discard you add in your sideboard (thoughtseize or duress), the more info you'll have to effectively cast CT.
One big advantage of CT is any matchup running swords to plowshares, since you can discard it before making the token, or at least you have knowledge if its safe to combo. So perhaps this card compensates the graveyardvulnerability of running 4x manabond as its more likely that the token endures swords.
I have been experimenting with CT in this way, but you need excellent knowledge of all decks to max out on its use, especially when you're brainstormed in response.
I find Chalice an excellent gamble target against fast combo as ANT, belcher or oops all spells, since the chance of keeping chalice after gambling (5 out of 6 on the play) are probably better than the normal odds against these matchups.
If you run 4x manabond, you should run seal of primordium instead of Krosan Grip, as you can cast it and fully abuse manabond loam/thicket, whereas Krosan Grip would be discarded or stop you from chaining lands. Its also a turn faster to cast, improving your odds against mooneffects. Once its out its out (whereas Grip needs a forest or three open mana to be effective).
How has this been doing? I don't like EE as the only critter removal as d&t has revoker on it and flickerwisp can blank it. The 2 Kgrip will be pretty extended on that mu as is. Do you not like pfire in your meta? DRS can still easily remove academy and ee on T1 can still be AD. I like Entomb with pfire to search it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystar
@ INGO & @ Jastern
I've tinkered my list quite a bit. I took out punishing fire and grove all together. Punishing fire begs for a long matchup and doesn't really eliminate any problems the combo runs into. DRS stops the Loam engine but if you have the combo you're pretty well set. I've played a lot of dark depths and the cards that hurt it are, wasteland, karakas, maze of ith, and swords to plowshares. Most decks that run DRS don't also run swords, so I won't need to recur the combo once its assembled.
I decided that entomb was great for getting loam because loam is essential if you don't have a crop rotation / acceleration.
Manabond was underperforming. It was good in some hands and bad in others. Since the land count for this version is low manabond got the axe entirely. running entomb, with gamble and 3 loams means that i'll start digging on t2 usually. Gamble is worth keeping because it tutors for my missing land too. If I have a depths/stage in hand and need the other I can tutor for the other piece and take a "gamble". Usually pays off because its being cast with several cards in hand. If I have a loam in hand then its doesn't even matter.
Exploration lets me still get a t2 token
Hexmage gets me a t2 token
Darkblast might earn a spot because of entomb.
I have 3 spots open in board. Not sure if they need to go towards combo or what. I was thinking maybe 1 riftstone portal to entomb in response to a blood moon or something so that I can cast my seals. Riftstone also helps the non mana producers.
Chasm has been lack luster in here. Since this version doesn't want to really lock the opponent out and instead goes for the kill it seems like a wasted slot.
This version plays much less like a lands deck and more like a depths deck. It looks like lands but its different.
Gemstone and city were put in instead of duals because Gamble is good when you can cast it t1, as is exploration and crop rotation. Playing with hexmage means that you need the black mana too. playing with fetches meant that situations would come up when i took the wrong one. Nothing has come up yet where I have regretted the city/gemstones.
urbogs benefit the lands that don't produce mana which is nice.
Biggest problem for the deck is surgical extraction, DRS is a close second. Chalice on 1 is the only answer it seems. Too bad they banned mental misstep.
Volraths stronghold has potential here because it can recur hexmage which can kill planes walkers. Other than that maybe recur an eternal witness but that seems like a long shot. If stuff has gotten to that point its probably over for you any ways.
Spells - 26
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
3 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
Lands - 34
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 Open slots
Final thoughts - so far the deck seems more consistent than the other versions I've played. It has some weaker match ups and I haven't really done nearly as extensive testing with it as the other versions.
No matter how you cut it the deck has lots of potential to be quick. there are 2 (hexmage depths and urborg / exploration depths stage land land) ways to make a t2 token and win on t3. In my other versions it only had 1 way (hexmage)
Also, I don't like discard against combo decks. It's not good enough. with brainstorms and tops keeping the important cards on top and them still having the potential to top deck it makes discard weaker than other answers. I prefer sphere and chalice. Possibly thorn too. Just haven't decided on the last few slots in the board.
I was brewing a jund lands list myself, but auto-included pfire. The other thing I didn't like was shutting yourself off with chalice at 1. Having recurable removal for planeswalkers is great though. Hexmage can also remove counters from chalice so it's not that bad if you are stalling to assemble the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Blood moon is brutal here, but you dont have space for fetches. My rough mu with lands in general is miracles. Sb seals are great there if they resolve(nice against omnitell too).
The random matches can be annoying vs a midrange junk deck or similar maverick list where they run swords and drs. D&t has many ways to deal with marit. They can block for days with just a mom and flying dork. Flickerwisp and swords can keep up with marit too. Karakas is whatevs vs lands. Although, I'd probably add a pyroclasm to the side or sulfur elemental if that deck is a problem. Mindcensor does a lot of work in this mu.
So definitely add a darkblast md so you can kill flying dudes before they get a sword equiped(d&t or vs clique). Great tricks with thicket.
This looks like a lot of fun to play!
Edit: With so few green sources and do nothing lands I would md a riftstone portal if chasm is contributing so little. Having a tabernacle out also buys time against many aggro decks and is a brutal surprise once crop rotated in. Have you tried this out before?
Some number of dark confidant has always been strong in the sb when the manabase can handle him.
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
35 Lands
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Punishing Fire
1 Zuran Orb
26 Spells
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
What my list is looking like at the moment. Long time lurker, first time poster. I love this archetype and traded into it after coming into an artist signed Tabernacle. I still play the control shell and a lot of my local meta is creature and midrange mostly. At some point I will try the all in combo versions.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Seems like a very legitimate card.
2GU
+1 prevent all damage dealt to and from a permanent an opponent controls.
-1 draw a card and play an additional land
-5 put a 9/9 kraken into play every end step (emblem)
Starts with 2 loyalty.
Let's discuss.
1) dies to lightning bolt AFTER you tick it on the first turnQuote:
Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod
2) TNN
3) It seems like its an Explore for 2 more mana.
I don't know that the emblem ability is stronger than a Marit Lage token, and Marit Lage can race (yes, this can race too. just several turns after it comes down).