[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Artifacts 20
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Magus Of The Tabernacle

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Just quoting the list first up above.
In my recent matchups, the real issue for me has been losing critical pieces to either EE or being taken out by fast aggro. Working with the principle that lock pieces can only be replaced by better lock pieces, I tried to find a better piece. Suppresion field is now maindeck because of this, it slows down some of the top contenders and leads to a "must counter or destroy" kind of lock piece (especially against fetch lands).

I was running WU in order to have Propaganda and Ghostly prison, but realized that it was now not as good even as Ensnaring Bridge. No bottled cloister combo or what not, just Ensnaring bridge. It certainly dwarfs out New Horizon's and other aggro strategys.

One of the worst topdecks has been a Mox Diamond for quite some time, with Ensnaring bridge you can simply drop it and let it die to it's own trigger and maintain a low hand size. Ensnaring bridge get's around the worst of the discard contender's and often stop's discard strategy's. When you have one card, Even Nantuko shade isn't coming through for pumped hits.

By doing this though, it eliminated the need to have a Tabernacle system. While this might seem like sacrilege in a Geddon Stax thread, Tabernacle became one of the weakest cards except in Goblin or Fish matchups. Player's who do not have an answer for Bridge will let their creatures die in order to find the answer with their mana. Reliance on Crucible became slightly less (still a 3 or 4 of for Wastelock and similar). This freed up quite a few slots. After this, looking toward's the win condition, it became necessary to now have a reliable win condition. In this way Magus became a two of.

Elspeth fills that slot. Even as a two of, the diminished need for win condition's with factory's become oustanding. Of course with Ensnaring bridge you now have to meet it's own requirement to attack; but Ensnaring bridge also saves Planeswalkers in a way that Prison/Ganda could not.

So what's my point?

I believe you are entirely correct that card quality can be increased and free up more room.
Crystal ball is certainly looking good. But the Temple bell seem's better to me. While mutual draw system's are rarely what is wanted, the no life penalty, and the ability to control the draw time to make the most of Ensnaring bridge provides real depth.

Trinisphere has been better then ever for me. And is back up to a 4 of.
My core is now looking like this.

4 Trinisphere
3 Suppression Field
4 Mox Diamond
2 Elspeth
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Temple Bell
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

28 Cards with more available slots then ever.

New tester card for the week is Ajani Vengeant.
His ability to tap and hold something down is impenetrable. Often times that which might be able to deal with him becomes tapped down as he becomes a one sided Armageddonantion!
Supporting a R isn't so hard either. A single Plateau and a Arid Mesa has worked fine. The single fetch is often a non issue with Suppression field. Mox diamond's pick up the slack. And Flagstones can still find them should they go to the grave; of course sometimes Wastelanding yourself (horrid situation) can be necessary.

Other tester's involves a 2 of Riftstone portal in the landbase. It provides a way out to Ancient tomb damage and easy WW or G taps. That let's us enjoy Choke in MB or SB and get's out of Blood moon! (They become Mountains with tap for green or white aka jungle shrine!)

Ensnaring bridge opens up new options in Planeswalkers, which is still something that is not that easy to deal with short of an Oblivion ring.

Maze of Ith is filling my own Tabernacle spot. And I will be testing KoTR over Magus in the next week.

Enlightened Tutor generates no real CA, but think about games you've won and games you've lost. Games I've won have all amounted to having a relevant soft lock piece down on t1 or t2 (Chalice/Trinisphere/Prison) either followed up with a beater they couldn't stop or with a harder lock (Wasteland/Smokestack + Crucible). When I lose, it's either because I didn't have soft lock by t1/t2, because I mulliganed down to oblivion while looking for a relevant lock, or just from bad late game topdecking. Enlightened Tutor fixes two of these problems and potentially helps the third (admittedly it potentially hurts the third as well simply depending on gamestate).

That being said, I've been goldfishing games using 3 and 4 Enlightened Tutors in place of some combination of Crucibles, Smokestacks, and Oblivion Rings and have found that my chance to goldfish into a t2 soft lock is highly improved, while my chance to t1 into a soft lock remains the same. I'll keep testing it out, but I encourage others to do some testing of their own and not write it off completely.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

As a deck, Stax is actually impressively consistent simply because of the number of 4-ofs we run. The problem is that we need a lot of pieces, and we need each one at a particular time. We're asking for the deck to predict future gamestates and always give us the perfect card.

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

We get enough keepable hands but know woefully little about whether they will work out even during the first few turns.

The first part is the very definition of inconsistency, isn't it?

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This may lead us down the dark hole of semantics, but here's a thought: perhaps we've built Stax up to actually be too consistent. The problem with consistency is that you lack versatility. Card quality engines give you precisely what Stax needs: not the same card every time, but the right card at the right time. Depending on the opponent and current state of the board, your optimum topdeck changes, and tutors are a way to help manage the topdeck. In other words, tutor DOES decrease your consistency by making the deck do different things each game, but that could very well be a strength.

Consider the use of ETutor in recent Death and Taxes lists. It's used to construct a toolbox sideboard filled with singletons that each address a particular threat. Why doesn't Stax use a toolbox? The prevailing Stax philosophy is that we don't need specific solutions to individual problems: all of our cards handle many threats. Again, you see Stax valuing the idea of consistency: we just do the same thing come what may. However, it's increasingly obvious that consistency isn't enough. Even when each card is generic enough to handle many threats, there're always some cards that will be more useful than others in a given situation. When people say that the deck is inconsistent, it's probably being quite consistent: but it still can't predict the future and give you what you'll need. In that case you need directed, deliberate inconsistency: you need a tutor.

However, the problem of card disadvantage still exists. In the case of D&T, the ability to pack five copies each of several game-breaking cards into the side is deemed more significant than the occasional loss of a draw step. Does the tutor in Stax grant such strong advantages that it's worth the same price?

In the case of Stax, there's dissonance between tutor and other cards in the deck. Even if we can say that the tutor's card quality strengths outweigh its card advantage weaknesses, there are these other problems to deal with. But it's time to abandon the idea of consistency above all, because consistency isn't enough. If it were, Stax would be doing better than it is. We need to influence the deck to be inconsistent in our favor. We need it to do different things in different games, but we need to control those differences. ETutor might not be the way to do so, but we need something like it.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Stuff about consistency

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http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products...202011/203.jpg

A full night on Workstation. Played against New Horizons, against some Fish, one Gobo, and actually only lost Gobo.
I must say this is working well. The sad face of having to pay 2 for some activated ability's is worth the pain on locking out fetchlands for turns on end or totally. Versus gobo's, it makes aether vial a sad face. I had little issue with consistency, and mulli'd about one in 3 games and was happy with the new hand. Ensnaring bridge was great except when you hit a huge land bust up. But that would be loss anyway, so I'm okay. Otherwise you can run out things to get low on Bridge and be comfy.

AJ is amazing. A tapper, a clock, removal, it's what we need.
Lightning helix can remove a small threat and life gain you. Occasionally getting rid of the Riftstone short of a Mox is hard. In which case it produces colorless on field till you can Waste it or Ghost quarter it or Smokestack bump it off. But that tech has saved me from countless deaths to Ancient Tomb!


1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

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Originally Posted by Q-Ball

3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

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playing no geddons is bad at all especially with 4 trinisphere and 3 suppression field main.
i guess it is better to go for bridge than for the prison if playing no geddons in geddon stax. but not playing the good cards to make the worse cards better seems strange to me.

the problem with the bridge is that it will never stop first turn lackey when you are on the play - with prison you got at least the chance to go for t1 prison t2 wasteland/prison#2/geddon/... .
my games against goblins with durchstax told me that 1st lackey which is able to attack you on their 2nd turn is their only way to win as they can win on their turn 3 after hitting us once.

ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

suppression field is a nice card but there is no space for them ... get those in your sideboard and start running fuckin' geddons.

the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...


post your sideboard!
as you are running red i would hardly recommend 4 BOIL for it.

best regards

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

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Yeah, I was thinking that the only reason to run less than three is if you start using ETutor. You don't necessarily want to see a stack in your opener anyway.

I think getting into semantics isn't going to help us any. ;p If you've played the deck to any extent, you know "the problem". You're playing Burn, your opening seven has 2 mox diamonds, 3 land, a Ghostly Prison, and an Armageddon. Do you keep and hope you draw into a better lock piece or mulligan and hope you get a better lock and have the mana setup to cast it early? You're playing Goblins on the draw, can you afford to keep a Flagstones, an Ancient Tomb, plains, Trinisphere, Chalice, Mox Diamond? Their turn one will be a Lackey or an Aether Vial. Playing your Chalice or Trinisphere will do barely anything to slow them down, if that. You can mull or you can draw, either way, hoping to pick up a Ghostly Prison (perhaps a Supression Field) before they completely overrun you.

Of course, these games could just as easily gone the complete opposite. T1/2 Chalice@1 or Trinisphere spells the end for Burn. Or had you been on the play, Goblins would have under tremendous pressure. That's the conundrum with Stax. If it weren't for the potential to make such devastating T1/2 plays, Stax would have been long abandoned because many times you are defeated by your own lousy draws, not anything in particular an opponent is doing.

Moving on... Ajani Vengeant VS Baneslayer as a finisher:

AV has very relevant abilities, namely tapping permanants and destroying lands. The life gain is helpful, but because it's a - ability, it can't race well.

Baneslayer can race better than any creature.

AV's cmc is 4, compared to Baneslayer's 5. They both require 2 colored mana, however Ajani requires WR while Baneslayer is WW.

AV is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their creatures (Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Rings).

Baneslayer is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their resources (Trinisphere, Chalice@1).

Either is good under a hard lock, obviously.

AV tries to slow the game down, Baneslayer tries to speed the game up.

While Ajani V is a good card and fits our theme very well, I wouldn't replace Baneslayer with him. Perhaps it's still worth consideration in another slot though.

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the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...

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I must say your off your rocker a little bit.
The mana base is averaged out by priority and casting cost; with proper utility.
27 Lands including one that doesn't make mana (unless riftstone hits grave)

1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

There are 10 white producers, again plus four mox. My only double white is Elspeth.
If flagstones hits the grave, and it normally does, 2/3 of games, everything produces white and green.
Otherwise, there are four green producers, not counting the Flagstones inherent ability to find a Savannah.
And "2" red producers, plus the flagstones, plus the mox.
That is 14/8/6. Without Ghostly prison, everything I mainly play to lock is colorless.

Again, not running Geddon means I don't need the extra plains.

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ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.

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As explained; and as you have clearly not used him, he is not a clock.
He is a lock piece. He has a one sided geddon built in under a soft lock, he can help lock down important mana or even a Mox, he can hold off an attacker much like a Maze of Ith and make a player take out a second threat to deal with him, in which case if they can even get that, it has to fit under Bridge.

Because of this, Magus and Mishra's are still the same finisher with Elspeth support.

I could see myself dropping the Suppression field based on meta. Here there is mass fetch lands and alot of planeswalkers. In which case I'd add another Smokestack and 2 ghostly prison. Suppression field however does help with goblins. Blocks vial rather well.

Instead of being rude, I would suggest actually reading and letting the gears turn.

Suppression Field MD is a pretty interesting idea that I had been thinking about actually. It seems like most decks either run fetchlands or Aether Vials. I definitely wouldn't run them alongside Mishra's Factories though. I already think Factories are weak, SF just makes them more so.

CRYSTAL BALL

This card should be taken into consideration imo, since (and I think all of you would agree) consistency is THE issue when comes to Stax variants.


EDIT: Here's an experimental list featuring The Ball:



2 Crystal Ball
1 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrelvale
1 Maze of Ith
(-30-)

4 Mox Diamond
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
(-30-)

SB:
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 New "you have shroud" Leylines

Yeah, there has been an SCD started by Infinitium here.

klaus, you have so many one-ofs and two-ofs and three-of Wastelands and Trinisphere? The only decks that can pull stuff like that are with Brainstorm and Ponder. Crystal Ball might be good, but it's definitely not that good.

Also, I think for Crystal Ball to be noticeable, we need at least three, maybe four.

Edit: I've been messing with this same build with Enlightened Tutors in place of Crystal Ball for a couple days now. I'm going to give Crystal Ball a try though.

Artifacts 21
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Crystal Ball

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 10
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

:)

Leyline of Sanctity
2ww
Enchantment Rare
If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

My new test is with Knight of the Reliquary
Is really a great card, you can use it to get a wasteland to wastelock with, crucible, a tabernacle, mishra, ... any land you need, is really BIG with armageddon and with chalice@1 cant be killed easily

My current test deck is:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of traitors
4x Plains
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
1x Kor Haven
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
3x Flagstones of trokair
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Mishra's Factory

26 Lands

4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives (Or 1 and 1 Oblivion Ring)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

16 Artifacts

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Knight of the reliquary
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

7 Creatures

4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Story Circle

11 Other

I'm not sure if moat is a good card here, because i can only kill with baneslayer angel if i use moat

With green you can use krosan grip and choke in Sideboard

I feel like your manabase would have trouble consistently bringing out either KotR or Story Circle in a timely fashion. Over half of your mana base is colorless and you want 2 colored mana by the time you have access to 3 mana. I worry about dropping Smokestack also. This deck generally takes a long time to kill and without a hard lock, that gives them a lot of time to find answers to either your soft lock or your beaters.

I have started doing playtesting with the following build, utilizing Elspeth and Grim Monolith:

4x Trinisphere
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The addition of Grim Monolith is a huge speed boost to the deck, allowing for more consistant turn one Trinispheres or Crucibles, as well as turn two Magus. Has anyone else found success adding in Grim Monoliths?

I decided to abandon the Baneslayer Angel route and stick with just Elspeth and Magus; Elspeth has a great amount of synergy with Smokestack, can create blockers, and is more difficult to remove than a Baneslayer. Any thoughts on this choice?

I've only been able to get a handful of games in via MWS thusfar but plan on getting a bunch of testing in sometime soon and will post my notes/thoughts.

So how often do you untap Grim Monolith? If you tend to just use it once, then I start to wonder how much more useful it is than any other card that takes X mana and returns X+1. Your argument then isn't really for Grim Monolith, but for more mana acceleration in the deck.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

So how often do you untap Grim Monolith? If you tend to just use it once, then I start to wonder how much more useful it is than any other card that takes X mana and returns X+1. Your argument then isn't really for Grim Monolith, but for more mana acceleration in the deck.

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I rarely untap the Grim Monolith, so yes, my core argument is that the deck needs just a little more acceleration. However, it does have the benefit of being an extra permanent that you can sacrifice to Smokestack. The other X => X+1 mana acceleration in the format is either off-color, a single-use spell, or is awkward with the deck construction (such as imprinting one of the few colored spells onto a Chrome Mox).

I had briefly tried running Metalworker, which is an incredible card, but dies to common removal such as Lightning Bolt, and the deck typically cannot support playing him until later in the game when you can set up a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void set to one. I was stoked to be able to untap with an active Metalworker, but setting it up requires a lot of front-end work to make it reliable, whereas Grim Monolith just works.

Grim Monolith really doesn't provide much better acceleration than a Lotus Petal would. Petals are easier to cast and provide colored mana (sometimes lacking in this deck). Not to mention the following:

Consider a hand with 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Grim Monoliths, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Probably keepable, but still slower than you'd want.

Now consider the same hand with Petals: 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Lotus Petals, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Not only keepable, but you have multiple strong t1 plays.

That said, you could also use Elvish Spirit Guide and/or Simian Spirit Guide with Petals for even higher chance to pull off silly t1 plays.

The added bonus that you can sac a Grim Monolith later in the game just doesn't cut it for me. If I make the call that the deck needs more acceleration then I'm going to give it the best acceleration I can. Stax's main problem is consistency. The deck is just as likely to mull into oblivion as it is to give you a good t1 play and it's just as likely to draw you a land halfway through the game as it is a wincon/lock piece.

So do I solve consistency by adding more mana acceleration and upping my explosiveness or do I look for some sort of CA engine or filter (Crystal Ball/Sylvan Library/etc)?

I'd be very interested to see how a Stax deck packing Spirit Guides and Lotus Petals performed. Turn 1 Smokestack, Turn 2 Crucible seems pretty hot. On the other hand, I think a filter like Crystal Ball might be the safer route to take. In any event, I'll be playing around with both.