I board three in against miracle. I think three is enough for they seem to not play 4 counterbalance recentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
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I board three in against miracle. I think three is enough for they seem to not play 4 counterbalance recentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Placed 5th at SCG Indy. Played poorly in the top 8 to lose to RUG Delver. List is posted on SCG.
I see people wondering about grim tutor. I'm not so sure about today's consensus, but I personally feel it is very powerful.
I'd say that in game 1 I'm winning about 35% of the time without needing AD and its often thanks to grim (I can also grim tutor for an LED if thats all I need and don't have it, to set up for next turn if I don't think that they will somehow interact with me, or I can get a cabal ritual if I need more gas and I'm at thresh.)
and I've learned that even if I lose game 1 against non-interactive decks with slower clocks, I might want to play on the draw for game 2....
Grim tutor is pretty lose IMO, cost 1BB, pay 3 life... It's a real demonic but the cost is so high, even though I feel It's a necessary evil, I mean, talking about UB ANT version, 4 tutors is just not enough, I wish I could play 6 infernals so Grim is the best alternative, since I'd like to play as less bad tutors as posible I went down to 1 Grim an add a couple of preordains which are fairly good, It has been performing well for me.
In the Burning wish version is necessay in order to make your wishes a real bussiness spell.
Did you need all those wish targets? It seems like a lot, especially with only 2 red lands main. Usually it seems like people have the 1 PiF main, 1 IGG Side, and then 1 Tendrils and 1 Empty split between main and side.Quote:
Originally Posted by End3r000
Congrats on your finish...I've come to a similar conclusion, that it wasn't really worth the effort for me to try a green splash.
I don't know what non-interactive decks with a slow clock you're talking about that you could possibly ever lose G1. Either way...I really don't think this deck ever wants to be on the draw, the extra card doesn't really speed up our clock much.Quote:
Originally Posted by End3r000
I've played T.E.S to a reasonable success at my local game store. However it has way to little game against RUG for me to justify playing it at a large Grand Prix. With Strasbourg coming up, i've been playing this deck and it seems strong. I'm wondering if there's anything i should look out for, that is way different than with T.E.S. Obviously Ad Nauseum is a bit weaker (though you sometimes need it) and Past in Flames is really strong. Haven't played against Deathrite Shaman yet though :).
Just wondering: How can it be, that after ANT was seriously hurt by RIP, DRS and the metashift towards BUG, this deck made it back to the DtB section over TES?
ANT is easier to play, for one. The metagame is also not the same everywhere, and what the player is comfortable with matters a bunch, too - I feel much more at ease playing Elves or ANT than TES, for example. So even though TES is probably a better deck than those two, I'd do better with them.
You can murder RUG pretty well with TES. A fast Warrens is something they just don't recover from. It's a volatile match, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoyrm
ANT is more consistent (DTB only looks at large tournaments), and it's more popular, RIP is a fairly niche card that's played in a deck that has no clock, DRS isn't really that hard to play around, and BUG isn't much different than RUG against this deck (very close matchup, not particularly close if the BUG deck cut Force).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And discard hurts TES way more than ANT.. It does hurt ANT a lot as well, but players often side in Dark Confidants that are often absent in TES sideboards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
Diminishing Returns, Brainstorm, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames all make discard negligible to TES. The move from RUG to BUG is actually favourable for ANT players playing Dark Confidant because in the RUG match up, Lightning Bolt doesn't come out, but in the BUG match up, Abrupt Decays do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89
im testing ub ant (see prosak article) but with 1 grim tutor and 3 preordains. The deck looks fine, but i think that tnt is just better, the only issue with this is the green splashQuote:
Originally Posted by Sigyn
The wish targets all have won me games. Iggy and Tendrils are the most common, but Grim, EtW, PiF have all pulled out games that I would have otherwise lost. As for the Pyroclasm and the Shattering Spree, they stop you from losing to random hate. Your second quote which has my name on it is not mine either. I would never want to draw with this deck. Also the only time I've lost the non-interactive mu was when I got too greedy with AdN.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
Can I suggest you look at my list from Indy? Aside from the SB it's Teemo's list that he won the GP with. I've found the extra cantrips are just too slow most of the time. I'd rather be winning than cantriping.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
I played a really small local tournament today. it was only 4 rounds and i made a few misplays but i feel very good about the deck. here's the list i was playing
-----
2x bloodstained mire
2x misty rainforest
2x scalding tarn
1x polluted delta
2x marshflats
2x underground sea
1x badlands
1x volcanic island
1x island
1x swamp
3x lion's eye diamond ( the fourth didn't come in the mail in time! x_x', it should be -1 fetch +1 LED)
4x lotus petal
1x chrome mox
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x infernal tutor
2x burning wish
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
3x gitaxian probe
4x duress
3x cabal therapy
2x inquisition of kozilek
1x ad nauseam
1x tendrils of agony
1x past in flames
------
2x chain of vapor
1x echoing truth
2x wipe away
4x dread of night
1x pyroclasm
1x cabal therapy
1x inquisition of kozilek
1x empty the warrens
1x past in flames
1x tendrils of agony
-----
i don't have notes but it went something like this..
round 1 i played against maverick.
g1 t1 i play inquisition of kozilek and get thalia. t2 i ponder into some business and t3 i storm him out with some ramp into past in flames and a tendrils.
g2 i land an early dread of night. he plays an ethersworn canonist. and then another. i wish for pyroclasm and next turn i wipe his field and play the 2nd dread of night. a few turns pass and i try to go off but i pop my lotus petal for black instead of red and force myself into a mini tendrils instead of a bunch of goblins x_x i end up getting beat down by an ooze.
g3 we have less than 3 minutes to play. i keep a pretty bad hand and get beatdown by 2 moms and a jitte
round 2 is mirror against an ant list without burning wish or grim tutor.
g1 i have some discard and business and get there off PiF
g2 he has the discard and business and gets there off an ad nauseam
g3 i have discard and a t2 ad nauseam with 1 black floating. i draw a bunch of rituals and a burning wish but no lotus petal. i end up killing myself with ad nauseam trying to find the petal. in retrospect i should have just fired off a dark ritual and some discard to strip his hand and try to go off again next turn.
round 3 was against goblins
g1 i went off t3 with some ramp, infernal tutor, past in flames into tendrils.
g2 i went of t3 into an empty the warrens for 14 tokens and won shortly after.
round 4 was against my buddy playing big red
game 1 i go off t2 or t3 and make 14 goblins. he draws something, but i guess it wasnt good enough because he scoops.
game 2 he plays a t1 pyrostatic pillar. on my turn i duress him and get a trinisphere. he draws lands for a few turns and i play a few cantrips and sculpt my hand. once im at 10 life i find an echoing truth. i bounce his pillar on the end of his turn and then on my turn i go off and finish with a tendrils.
and that's about it. all in all i feel very good about the deck and i feel like i could have done alot better today if it wasn't for a few minor misplays. i definitely plan on playing this list again in a few weeks at the next event.
Why this deck usually makes DtB status instead of TES usually?
Having a more consistent mana base, more cantrips and just more consistency overall is better in the long run.
Playing 8+ Rounds in SCG Opens, GPs, etc exposes your matches to more variance. TES adds more to the variance part with a manabase more vulnerable to Wasteland and games less resistant to disruption. Being faster with those drawbacks is great on paper, but when you play so many rounds you expose yourself to greater chances to mulliganing, hate, etc.
I find it funny that ANT only top 8s and TES wins, yet ANT, not TES, ends up in the DTB section.
More people are probably prone to pick up ANT. It seems to be a bit easier to play. Also Bryant is a great player with TES! Less Colors also makes it a bit more consistent in some peoples eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by End3r000
The stronger late game also helps in dealing with the variance that was mentioned before. Besides that, it's a bit about aggro/control personality, too. TES is far more of an aggro deck than ANT can ever hope to be, and vice versa to a good extent.
So we evaluate the strength of a deck not because of it's performance but of the a) amount of players which pick it up and b) the linearity to play it without practice? No wonder Burn was considered a DtB last year on TheSource lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
It may not be elegant, but it's simple and consistent. Either way, if people wanted to spike the DTB status, they could all play Dredge for 4 weeks straight, and that would work just as well. The DTB isn't tracking "most powerful deck"; it's tracking "the most likely deck you'll face". That latter does get influenced by the frequency of people playing a given deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well, the DTB is part what performs well, part what is played a lot. Basically, doesn't matter if Lich is the bees knees, preparing for it is largely useless.
There's a saying in Finland that goes roughly "When shit gets paired against shit, shit wins", or more politically correctly, be mindful of sheer clout.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4172&d=224385Quote:
Originally Posted by End3r000
its labeled as TES for some reason, but its obviously an ANT deck. actually the only 1st place on page one of storm is one ANT deck.
also i didn't realize this was the place to incessantly argue over which storm deck is better. each deck has its own strengths and weaknesses. people are going to play what they want to play. as far as i know, DTB is a representation of what people are playing and what you should expect to be playing against. not a representation of the most powerful deck in the format. obviously there is a link when comparing the two, but in no way does DTB status make a deck better. if anything being on the dtb page is worse for a deck because then everyone knows the latest tech.
a productive conversation on how to make either deck better would be time much better spent, rather than uttering repetitive babble over TES vs ANT. its a circular conversation. the ANT players are going to play ANT and the TES players are going to play TES.
Isn't the question if this or TES should be DTB kind of offtopic?
To be ontopic, I think Prosak did the right thing by splashing Gemstone Mines into the deck and this should be looked into further.
=> http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=53166 his list, for reference.
I've been toying around with that list a bit and came to the conclusion that, if one plays 4 Gemstone Mine (-1 Underground Sea, -1 Island), the disruption package can easily be changed to 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Duress, 3 Silence.
Which has been the bomb. Currently, I feel there is so much going on between Misdirectionn, Divert, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, etc. that Silence is an absolute monster. So I tested it and never looked back. The other change I made was swapping 2 Preordain with a Grim Tutor and a card that has imho been greatly overlooked in decks running GT - Chain of Vapor.
With the mentioned changes I made I'm actually testing (with GP Straßbourg in mind) the following list:
Lands:
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Spells:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grim TUtor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ignorant Bliss (love this so much)
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre
1 Tropical Island
Will post a small report of noticable events while testing this list when I have a bit more of time, so the list isn't so alone in here ;D What I can say (and can't say enough) that Silence is brilliantly good atm.
Greetings,
Florian
instead of going to all that trouble to play silence, couldn't you just keep the discard set up play SB xantid swarm instead? your already splashing for abrupt decay. carpet of flowers isnt very good so you already have 3 open slots. xantid swarm also dodges spell pierce, spell snare, flusterstorm, easily dodges daze, and fits into your colors without any trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
also imo chant effects are only good in certain matchups. i like that you can "chant-walk" against non blue decks, but again, imo, discard does alot more damage to a wider variety of the field.
I'm not a fan of Xantid Swarm. The choice Swarm against Carpet is imho solely dependend on the RUG matchup (which might be a german thing, because RUG makes a pretty big part of the meta here). So, Swarm does basicly nothing here, because they'll most certainly leave Bolts in, while Carpet nets you at least two mana, even if you get wasted to death. That was the most important point which got me to switch the two sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlleywayJack
Splashing Silence isn't trouble at all, it's just 2 up to 4 Gemstone Mines, which actually fit quite nicely into the mana base. Currently.. in this meta, combo is on the rise everywhere and I always felt kind of naked playing the mirror without Chanteffects while my opponent had them. Against Maverick it's a Time Walk where Duress might miss Thalia. It's super against a Force under a Top (yes, Swarm does that too, but you do have to untap with it). It helps at least a bit against Tin Fins / Reanimator / SnT. Snapcaster are everywhere, so discard doesn't do that much here again. And of course, being able to fetch it with Grim Tutor while comboing off (serving as bait, also) is great - which is, by the way, one of the situations I wanted to describe later.
So, in my oppinion, Silence decks most of the archetypes that are currently dominant better than discard does.
TES also plays City of Brass to make it more likely that we can cast our Silences. 4 Gemstones may not be enough. And for this deck relying heavier on a land that eventually depletes itself may be a problem.
Funny that you mention it :D I actually played City of Brass on Sunday instead of Gemstone Mine (well.. because I got them altered and stuff) which got me almost killed in two games. I don't think you'll use the land more than three times, but if you happen to draw two, CoB could turn into a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Well TES usually does 4 Gemstones and 2 City of Brass. But it mitigates the life loss/depletion of counters by just being faster and therefore not using the lands as many times per turn. I have had issues of using up all of my counters on mine. Im sure that ANT probably would activate their Mine/City of Brass an average of almost one time more than TES. Which is why I am not sure if you really want to risk stretching the mana base too far here.
Not to mention that if you are playing something like this you play less fetches which not only weakens your Brainstorms, but Cabal Ritual becomes much slower.
I switched 1 Underground Sea and 1 Island for the two extra Mines, so no, no Fetchlands cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
And I don't get why you have issues with the depletion of counters. I mean, even if TES is faster, this is still a combo deck. So even IF you land a Gemstone Mine T1, you should kill T3, meaning your last counter goes into the combo turn. If not, I think something is going wrong.
Hey, list looks very nice. I think I will give it a try at my next tournament (btw. your list has 57 cards, I think you forgot the Silences :wink: ). Is Ignorant Bliss really that good? And ETW comes in against Canadian I think, wouldn't the 4th copy of Silence be better in that specific MU?Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
In my experience Delver's way of dealing with a fast Warrens is "die horribly".
That's true, but is this deck build to support an early warrens consistently? Just asking questions, I never tested mort's list but know the Etw-power from TES (really good in here) and from the UBR-WishANT (where ETW rarely shines during the first turns of a match. It seems to be more of a grinding card in here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Yeah.. Silences are missing. Whooops :D
I think I'll also upgrade to 4 Silences and cut the Duress.
And yes, Ignorant Bliss is that good. Nothing beats the face of "Hymn to Tourach, you." "Response, Ignorant Bliss". And then... the face :)
Edit: Yeah, early Warrens works quite well, especially with the Chain to add 2 / 3 Stormcounts.
I wouldn't board Warrens in. This is a longer game deck built on the power of Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames fueled by Cabal Rituals. Not ideal ground for getting off those fast Warrens.
Is there a reason that Carpet of Flowers or Xantid Swarm is favored over something like Defense Grid when boarding against RUG? I feel like I'd rather wait the extra turn and be able to fetch basics than have to open up a Bayou to Wasteland.
Amazing ... after burning wishes, chrome moxen, empty the warrens and Rainbow Land Players try out Silences in ANT?
I have no idea why ANT still Claims it's own identity because of Cabal Ritual and PIF maindeck (instead wishboard) if the Rest of the deck mimicries some TES' techs here and there in a rotation.
Divert > Ignorant Bliss
Both are pretty bad imo, if I had to run one of those I'd definitely agree with you, but since divert doesn't provide protection from duress I prefer running Dark confidant instead even though is sensible to removal spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I personally don't like silences at all in this kind of decks, I understand them in DDFT or TES since you want to stop all kind of interaction when you go diminishing returns/Tspiral/Doomsday, but in ANT is much better going for the discard plan, one of the strenghs of ANT over the other storm combo decks is the manabase, which is pretty solid, adding white makes it more vulnerable.
Hei Guys
Im from Switzerland and a great fan of ANT and TES but at the moment now i play ANT/TNT.
Here is my list:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Ponder
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pyroclasm (We have a lot esperblade player and it takes the hatebears)
SB: 4 Dark Confidant(Should be have to play! so good against Discard and Combo)
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay (I play 4 decays because: They are to good in the meta right now and in Switzerland we have a lot Miracle and other match up where are the decay so good)
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Meltdown (Changing Slot but when i know, someone play MuD, affinity etc)
The list perform very well with the green split to.
I like the SB very much.
I hope your enjoy my list:)
@Silence , i think its not a good card in ANT because its not TES! Why we should the mana base bader when we cut basics or discard for silence and gemstone mine? ANT play enough discard for protect the Combo Turn and it is more conistant with basic and discard.
I only like Silence in TES because its fast combo and have to go off faster then ANT!
Greets from Switzerland