Miracle Control

Hello,

for the podcast I think Casten got some point here. Yes if you have 3 Snap Casters in the deck there is an Option to board in more removal to abuse the
abillity of the Snapcaster, but if i am not wrong they play 4 deathrite Shamans which make Snapcaster much less reliable as it shoiuld be. Then you have to commit more
Mana in the Snapcaster Trick as you would need to set up counterbalance.
Third you have 8 answers for 6 enchanment threats ( 4 cb, 2 rip) 4 of the threats ( Charms) can be countered by the Cb. So you have 6 threats and 4 bulltet proof solutions for it so you cb should be safe for enough turns to get you a huge advantage even more if you play a misdirection or Venser in their Decay.
Last but not least you don´t have to board something out necassarily if so I would board out Snapcaster becasu I plan to bring in the Rip and then Snapcasters are not realy good.
So for me it looks safer to overload them with threats so that they will commit on solving them and stop threating you with creatures and planeswalkers. Because every turn they cast a charm to try to kill you cb or kill it with a decay only to face a new one next turn or get their decay bounced or redirected is creating an advantage for you. Yes you may say that Decay and Charm a instants but also for them to use them in my turn you have to leave mana open at ur turn and since you can´t use wasteland for the spells the Bug deck will have problems to cast a threat and a solution with their Mana so it is high likley that they resolve the problem first and then cast a threat which inb fact brings you atleast 1 turn against the deck and give you an advantage because at this point the tempo deck loses the tempo.

So all in all I think it is the right choice to leave the Cb in and board out the Snapcasters in return for RIPs here.

Best Regards Teveshszat

Listened to the podcast now. Obviously I disagree strongly with everything they say about Miracles, seems like I couldn't convince everybody. But that's how it goes. I made my point, not going to explain it over and over and over again.

Greetings

Hello guys i was an Uwr delver player but i decided to switch to miracles due i am bored to play against jund,miracles and bug delver.
i have a few questions:
1)How do i beat karakas and mangara combo against death and taxes?
2)what is the best sideboard card we have against jund?(is supreme verdict any good here?!)
3) can i have some advice to beat death and taxes?!

Thank you in advance!!

Looking at TC Decks today, I noticed that almost everyone is packing 2 Stoneforge Mystic + 1 (saw even 2) Batterskull in the board :frown:. Hope I'll dodge that @BoM Annecy ^^! If I know that my opponent plays it I can always side my 1-off Needle, but when I don't know (and I won't in a large tournament :P) it's to much of a gamble...

I don't like the general idea of siding out CB just because your opponent have Abrupt Decay and probably Golgari Charm. What's more important is to think of which cards you expect to counter with CB. Against BUG for example you have enough removal to handle most of their creatures anyway, even with CA. You don't NEED the eventual CA from CB as you have 3-4 Jace and all they have is a Sylvan Library. There is no NEED to go over the top just because it's nice to counter their Thoughtseize or Ponder with CB because at the same time you risk a scenario where you are dying to Tombstalker or True-name Nemesis with a Counterbalance on board. As I was saying in a previous post; I side out CB against BUG-delver because of how unreliable it is. I ALSO side it out versus Patriot for the same reason. And I consider Patriot more or less a bye at this point. I would keep it against RUG because where it's awesome but that deck is much tighter without bad topdecks, like discard, and also have a lower curve. I still struggle to find an elegant solution to Liliana of the Veil... Any new ideas?

I don't like;
Pithing Needle
Celestial Purge
Spell Pierce
Oblivion Ring

I kind of like;
Creatures with flash
Counterspell
Entreat the Angels
Jace, the mind sculptor
Ignoring it (but that only works if she comes down later than turn 3)

I really like;
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Originally Posted by janluis1

Hello guys i was an Uwr delver player but i decided to switch to miracles due i am bored to play against jund,miracles and bug delver.
i have a few questions:
1)How do i beat karakas and mangara combo against death and taxes?
2)what is the best sideboard card we have against jund?(is supreme verdict any good here?!)
3) can i have some advice to beat death and taxes?!

Thank you in advance!!

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1) Mangara is not played anymore. IF it shows up it's not really dangerous if they don't have a vial @3. You can allways kill it in response to them using karakas.

2) The best sideboard card is Entreat the angels as they have nothing against it when you play it during their end step. Even if you are forced to mainphase it all they can do is play their 1of Maelstrom Pulse.

3) The most important thing against Dnt is mana. I can't stress this enough. Never fetch duals at any point, even if you allready have a turndra in hand. Deal with their threats, needle aether vial and try to play jace on an empty board. If that's not possible you should try and race with 3+ Angels pre-board (because of Swords to plowshares) or 2+ Angels post-board (because they only run Ratchet bomb). Also, don't be fooled by Sword of fire and Ice. It's a great card against you but the important thing is to keep their creatures of the board, not their equipments (unless it's Batterskull). Also, sensei's divining top is key. If all of their creatures are dead and you deal with Vial then Rishadan port should be no problem. Just find a top and activate it with the land they target with port. Try to get 4-5 Basics in play and sandbag the rest for the worst case scenario which is Cataclysm. Respect that card and Aether Vial which means do not cut any Force of will in the matchup.

We're free to disagree and have a reasonable dialogue on the situation. If only politicians did this.

I understand the reasoning behind the situation, I just don't like it.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Mackan

1) Mangara is not played anymore. IF it shows up it's not really dangerous if they don't have a vial @3. You can allways kill it in response to them using karakas.

2) The best sideboard card is Entreat the angels as they have nothing against it when you play it during their end step. Even if you are forced to mainphase it all they can do is play their 1of Maelstrom Pulse.

3) The most important thing against Dnt is mana. I can't stress this enough. Never fetch duals at any point, even if you allready have a turndra in hand. Deal with their threats, needle aether vial and try to play jace on an empty board. If that's not possible you should try and race with 3+ Angels pre-board (because of Swords to plowshares) or 2+ Angels post-board (because they only run Ratchet bomb). Also, don't be fooled by Sword of fire and Ice. It's a great card against you but the important thing is to keep their creatures of the board, not their equipments (unless it's Batterskull). Also, sensei's divining top is key. If all of their creatures are dead and you deal with Vial then Rishadan port should be no problem. Just find a top and activate it with the land they target with port. Try to get 4-5 Basics in play and sandbag the rest for the worst case scenario which is Cataclysm. Respect that card and Aether Vial which means do not cut any Force of will in the matchup.

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Thank you very very much for your advice.
One more.question please. Is then supreme verdict a good card against jund and bug decks? Or do you suggest to not be too bothered putting it in my sb?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I don't like the general idea of siding out CB just because your opponent have Abrupt Decay and probably Golgari Charm. What's more important is to think of which cards you expect to counter with CB. Against BUG for example you have enough removal to handle most of their creatures anyway, even with CA. You don't NEED the eventual CA from CB as you have 3-4 Jace and all they have is a Sylvan Library. There is no NEED to go over the top just because it's nice to counter their Thoughtseize or Ponder with CB because at the same time you risk a scenario where you are dying to Tombstalker or True-name Nemesis with a Counterbalance on board. As I was saying in a previous post; I side out CB against BUG-delver because of how unreliable it is. I ALSO side it out versus Patriot for the same reason. And I consider Patriot more or less a bye at this point. I would keep it against RUG because where it's awesome but that deck is much tighter without bad topdecks, like discard, and also have a lower curve. I still struggle to find an elegant solution to Liliana of the Veil... Any new ideas?

I don't like;
Pithing Needle
Celestial Purge
Spell Pierce
Oblivion Ring

I kind of like;
Creatures with flash
Counterspell
Entreat the Angels
Jace, the mind sculptor
Ignoring it (but that only works if she comes down later than turn 3)

I really like;
-

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I think our best answers for Liliana are Vendilion Clique, Venser, and Needle, as well as a timely Spell Pierce. A lot of times, Liliana will put at least your opponent into top-deck mode. When this happens, you can always flash in your Venser, bounce the Liliana, and rejoice as they have to discard her.

Another question.please. how would you feel with miracles in this metagame? Thank you

Punishing maverick 1
Death and taxes 2
All in red sneak attack 1
Affinity aggo 1
Ant storm 1
Rug delver 1
Bug delver 1
Elves 3
Sneak.and.show 1
Jund 2
Reanimator 2
Omnitell 1
Ur delver 1
Bug delver 1
Bug veteran pod 1
Imperial Painter 1
Burn 1
Merfolk 1
Cheers

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Originally Posted by sdematt

We're free to disagree and have a reasonable dialogue on the situation. If only politicians did this.

I understand the reasoning behind the situation, I just don't like it.

-Matt

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First of all, Kotter writes for SCG a lot. If you read enough of his articles, you'll notice a glaring pattern: He pads his articles A Lot, like unusually Frequent, relative to other writers. If you take away the pads, the essence of his article is about one paragraph. The only redeeming thing he mentioned on the podcast was his take on Survival. He's correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I don't like the general idea of siding out CB just because your opponent have Abrupt Decay and probably Golgari Charm. What's more important is to think of which cards you expect to counter with CB. Against BUG for example you have enough removal to handle most of their creatures anyway, even with CA. You don't NEED the eventual CA from CB as you have 3-4 Jace and all they have is a Sylvan Library. There is no NEED to go over the top just because it's nice to counter their Thoughtseize or Ponder with CB because at the same time you risk a scenario where you are dying to Tombstalker or True-name Nemesis with a Counterbalance on board. As I was saying in a previous post; I side out CB against BUG-delver because of how unreliable it is. I ALSO side it out versus Patriot for the same reason. And I consider Patriot more or less a bye at this point. I would keep it against RUG because where it's awesome but that deck is much tighter without bad topdecks, like discard, and also have a lower curve. I still struggle to find an elegant solution to Liliana of the Veil... Any new ideas?

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Above is not true. You CANNOT have the same SB plan, IMPOSSIBLE. BUG's win condition is creature Beatdown. RUG and WUR Delver's win conditions are creature Beatdown AND Lightning Bolt. How could you treat a deck with Lightning Bolt/direct damage the same way you treat a deck without? If the game goes long into the attrition war and both you and your WUR Blade opponent are on Top-deck mode, then here's the problem: since you decide to SB out CB, you are totally dead to a Top deck Bolt.

CB, by nature, is a soft-lock. No one argues that it has to be reliable. Perhaps you can lower your expectation. If you watch enough Lossett's stream and SCG feature match, I'm sure you saw him surprising Liliana killing herself using Venser.

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Originally Posted by janluis1

Another question.please. how would you feel with miracles in this metagame? Thank you

Punishing maverick 1
Death and taxes 2
All in red sneak attack 1
Affinity aggo 1
Ant storm 1
Rug delver 1
Bug delver 1
Elves 3
Sneak.and.show 1
Jund 2
Reanimator 2
Omnitell 1
Ur delver 1
Bug delver 1
Bug veteran pod 1
Imperial Painter 1
Burn 1
Merfolk 1
Cheers

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I'd be comfortable, yes. There are a good number of decks in this meta that Miracles has a very strong matchup against (particularly, elves, UR delver, Burn, Merfolk, Omnitell, Show and Tell, Storm, and Affinity)

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Originally Posted by exallium

I'd be comfortable, yes. There are a good number of decks in this meta that Miracles has a very strong matchup against (particularly, elves, UR delver, Burn, Merfolk, Omnitell, Show and Tell, Storm, and Affinity)

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cheers again

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

By the way, my first article should go online tomorrow, next one to follow in about 2 weeks from now.

Greetings

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Why is it still not online =(?

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Originally Posted by Lans89

Why is it still not online =(?

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I have no idea, sorry. I'll link it as soon as it comes up!

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

I have no idea, sorry. I'll link it as soon as it comes up!

Greetings

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Meh =(! Was hoping to read it before packing for BoM.. I leave tomorrow at 07:00 :P

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Originally Posted by Lans89

Meh =(! Was hoping to read it before packing for BoM.. I leave tomorrow at 07:00 :P

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Meh I am sorry, there have been some seroius delays in the publishing of multiple articles. I can post the decklist I'll use for the BoM, though. As long as I don't get surprised by certain meta-anamolies on Thursday I'll be rocking this. Testing has obviously gone hillariously well.

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

I leave soon, before 5 am :)

Greetings

What exactly is the extra counterspell in the board for? Looks insane, good luck!

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Look, I thought I would be the best mirror-player in the whole world (please don't take that any serious) - then I lost 3 games at the GP to mirror, all 0-2. Since then I had to rethink my strategy. But the basic plan is -4 Swords -4 Terminus -2 Entreat + Counters/Creatures/Win-Cons that stick.

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Won't that plan leave you vulnerable to the Stoneforge mystic/Batterskull package? How do you adjust when you expect your opponent to have them?

So it looks like you are embracing the cantrip.deck that Carsten Kotter conceived years ago. Any chance you can further narrow down lands and play Preordain as well? When I was playing Kotter's Caw Cartel (for those of you unfamiliar with it, it's a UW control deck based around Squadron Hawk + Brainstorm effects to gain massive CA) I used to play 6 4cc drop in the main deck (4 Jaces and 2 Moats) , 20 lands and 10 cantrips (4 Bs, 4 Ponders, 2 Preordains) and the deck was extremely smooth. I understand in miracles you have Entreat which is mana hungry but when Miracles were first spoiled I played Miracle Caw Cartel for a while and I had no problem in resolving big EtA's even with 21 lands.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...win-in-legacy/

This article..., yeah the message is clear enough. All the Miracle examples, I don't know how to react to that. Better question, does Joe have anything to respond?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...win-in-legacy/

This article..., yeah the message is clear enough. All the Miracle examples, I don't know how to react to that. Better question, does Joe have anything to respond?

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I think for Bazaar of Moxen, given competent pilots, Miracles will be the deck to beat for the Legacy portion. Partly because the "I win" cards are so cheap and so backbreaking, and partly because few have considered board cards for only Miracles, per say. I know many people in my group have tested against Miracles, but I really don't think they've considered a good boarding plan as much.

Good luck to all the Miracles players in this thread going to BoM, and good luck to everyone else playing against it :P

-Matt

Is there any good source for a comprehensive sideboarding? I'm not talking just how to sideboard, but also the logic those decisions are based on. So far I've mostly been watching Lossett's stream to get an idea of what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by winglerw28

Is there any good source for a comprehensive sideboarding? I'm not talking just how to sideboard, but also the logic those decisions are based on. So far I've mostly been watching Lossett's stream to get an idea of what I'm doing.

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I can message you my SBing guide if you're interested and if you have any questions you can just ask. I don't have time necessarily to go over each decision though.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I can message you my SBing guide if you're interested and if you have any questions you can just ask. I don't have time necessarily to go over each decision though.

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I would really appreciate that! I've only played 2 local tournaments with the deck so far so my experience is fairly low right now.

Ein, why Ponder over REB? Ponder only seems strong when you are digging for Top. I suppose the assumption if you have Top, you're way ahead?

In the Pimp thread someone posted their miracles list with 2x Unexpectedly Absent. Has anyone else tested the card? If so, why was it not good? It seems halfway decent.

I had a match vs. Sneak and Show tonight with some interesting openers which myself and some friends can't really quite agree on. First, a list since I know people will want that (postboard configuration):

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
2 Scalding Tarn

2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Humility
1 Detention Sphere
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
1 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict

I'm on the draw, post board. I open: Island, Volcanic Island, Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand, 2x Top, Brainstorm. Do you keep this hand? If you mulled, would you change your mind if you were on the play?

Another situation, also on the draw. I'm on a mull to 6 already and I see 2x Force of will, Counterbalance, Spell Pierce, Red Elemental Blast, Enlightened Tutor. I have Dsphere and Humility in the deck as well. Would you keep this 6? Yes, there are no lands, but is a random 5 card hand going to be superior to this against sneak and show?

I'll avoid leaving my thoughts for now so I don't influence anyone.

Can I safely assume that you forgot to put Punishing fires in your post?

Edit: NVM I see now that you said this was post board. That hand seems kind of meh, though top and BS gives you insane digging power to quickly change up your hand. Though vs SnS if you dont find anything you just die. Probably not worth it to keep.

It would be a rare rare instance that I would ever keep a no land no filter no dig hand with a miracle deck.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I can message you my SBing guide if you're interested and if you have any questions you can just ask. I don't have time necessarily to go over each decision though.

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I'd also love to see this.

Yeah that second hand is GARBAGE. If you had a DSphere or Humility already in hand, I could see MAYBE keeping it, but the fact that you have nothing relevant to put in off of a SnT is pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

SnT thingy

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The BS, Top + lands hand is decent and a definite keeper imo, reason being: SnT is unlikely to go off before turn 3/4 anyway, since they do like to have double counter backup - indeed more often than not SnT will play this MU more conservatively than is due. Remember that you might be up against a Combo deck, but not against Belcher.
There was a recent article (by Carsten) explaining the psychology you need to apply here. Switch perspectives to the SnT guy's and you'll find that Miracles seems to always have answers to your plays, which applies mental pressure and serves us well when keeping slow cantrippy hands. Consequently leading with "land, go --> next turn: fetchland, go" is the only way to play out this hand - bluffing one-mana counterspells and thus buying crucial time.
"Turn 1/2: Top" might be beneficial from a card quality perspective, but you'd be pushing Mr. SnT to go for your throat, catch you with your pants down and seize that small time window before Top has sculpted an unbeatable hand.

Furthermore, this MU is a hardcore war of attrition, and all about who's able to cast more counterspells when it's show time (pun intended). Thus mulligans hurt way more than against most other archetypes, as you won't really be able to employ your major C/A resources (Jace, Terminus).

On a slightly different note: I very very rarely see opening hands comprising 2 lands (at least one of them being a fetchland) and a BS that deserve to be shipped back. In fact the amount of times that has happened to me is so little that I'm willing to suggest this keeper as a rule of thumb.

After losing the first trial at the BoM against 12Post I won my second trial 5-0 (10-1). Meta is very controlheavy but the list still rockd.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

After losing the first trial at the BoM against 12Post I won my second trial 5-0 (10-1). Meta is very controlheavy but the list still rockd.
Greetings

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Congratulations; I assume that gets you a couple of byes for tomorrow? If you get a chance can you let us know what decks you faced?

@ Valtrix: I echo the sentiment about keeping the first hand and the second one being utter garbage.

The one thing I was wondering about was the 1 of Entreat still in the list. It LOOKS kinda meh esepcially post board... Was there simply nothing else to bring in?

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Originally Posted by lyracian

Congratulations; I assume that gets you a couple of byes for tomorrow? If you get a chance can you let us know what decks you faced?

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Ant, Elves, Lands, Dredge and Jund. In a different order though.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by nodahero

The one thing I was wondering about was the 1 of Entreat still in the list. It LOOKS kinda meh esepcially post board... Was there simply nothing else to bring in?

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I mean when you're bringing out 4 punishing fire, 4 terminus, 1 swords... I don't really mind Entreat in this MU. It stops show and tell with balance, and you need some number of win-cons still.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Ant, Elves, Lands, Dredge and Jund. In a different order though.

Greetings

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How'd the match with the lands player go? Have any notes from it you'd be willing to share?

talk about stupidity.

Bazzar of Moxen 535 Legacy players, 8.6% are playing Miracles, that's some ridiculous stat. Well..., in that kind of Meta, perhaps Lossett's version's better off than Ein's version.

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/fr/ba...e-bom9,24.html