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Yeah, sliver is probably the best answer, although O-Ring and Krosan Grip are good in the matchup already too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm surprised anyone is played cursed totem, both this match and Elves shouldn't need the help from Miracles' board.
Hm, surprising people are giving Maverick/Death And Taxes that much credit these days. I cannot see anyone bringing that in vs stoneforge or deathrite shaman. I have used harmonic vs cursed totem/moat in the past, as well as E tutor and Serenity out of the board.
I would bring it in against Miracles (regardless of E-tutor or not), Lands, and Show & Tell. Vs Stoneblades, creature spot removal and planeswalkers is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Oh, I meant people bringing in cursed totem against us. Yes, harmonic seems great in those matches you mentioned though, as does leonin relic warder, though leonin would be better in vial builds and harmonic better in GSZ builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
BTW I am going to that GPT at knightware on Oct 13th. You going to be there?
Just saw this build in the MTGO DE decklists. It looks a bit unconventional, but also kinda interesting:
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rule of Law
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zealous Persecution
Looks like a pretty sweet junk/maverick hybrid. There was another one a little higher by troll slayer too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Hello everyone. I just had great weekend in Milan. I played maverick at the legacy part of Ovinogeddon and went all the way to the finals, where I split the prizes with my friend.
The list is something that is not popular here right now:
Creatures (24)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Garruk Relentless
Lands (23)
4 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
Spells (12)
4 Aether Vial
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
Short report:
407 players, 9 rounds, top8
R1. Grixis 2:0; Won with Dark Depths in first game and mother of runes - scavenging ooze - knight of the reliquary - equipment in the second, lived through perish. There were no confidants and lavamancers, but there were tombastalkers.
R2. UWr RIP Miracles 2:1; Won 1st game with dark depths, and with pithing needle+hatebears in the 3rd game.
R3. ANT 2:0; Turn 2 Revoker naming LED won me 1st game, and I mindbreak trapped in game 2.
R4. Grixis 2:0; It was a tough race. Jitte let me answer all confidants in g1, pithing needles and revokers let me answer lavamancers in g2.
R5. Canadian Thresh 0:2; Mulliganed to 5 in g1 and to 6 in 2. Also my opponent countered most of my early threats, also delayed my Dark Dapths activation with stifle and raced with creatures. Now I am 4-1 and have to win all the rest to be in top8.
R6. Goblins 2:0; G1 won with Dark Depths and G2 won with Sword of fire and ice.
R7. UWr thopter Miracles 2:0; Dark Depths in G1 let me champblock a lethal angel token and let me win next turn. In g2 needles, revokers and harmonic sliver gave me victory.
R8. UWr Miracles 2:1; It was one of the most difficult games that day. I had no chances in G1 - Terminus and Entreat the Angels for 6 didn't leave a chance. In g2 and 3, however, I managed to block his game with pithing needles, wastelands and hatebears.
R9. ANT 2:0; Feature match. He had a slow hand g1 and I was able to save my live with scavenging ooze and finish his life with finding Thalia with Garruk. G2 I mindbreak trapped his Ad Nauseum.
overall 8:1
In top8 I think I was all the time on camera. It's difficult for me to recollect the games, but they were very hard and completely mind blowing. The things that let me win against both DnT were: side out my vials and needle/revoker their vials, Marite Lage, Birds of Paradise wielding Sword of Fire and Ice, Garruk killing opponent's Stoneforge, making an army of wolves and finding me KoTR, needle on wasteland, sylvan library.
Top8: DnT 2:1
Top4: DnT 2:1
Finals: split, getting 2 of each dual and fetch.
The videos should appear soon. Eagerly waiting to watch and analyze my play. Overall great weekend, great italian people met, one of the wishes accomplished (win a big tourny with my own brew).
Great thanks to Luis Viciano aka M@verick, whose vial build was a foundation for my current D2D Maverick. Birds of Paradise which you signed for me was keeping me up all the day! Also huge thanks to my russian test team: Roman Nikolaev, Nikita Shavirin, Oleg Silyukov and Vladimir Padve, with whome I actually split the finals.
The mtgq.it asked me to write a primer on my list, so perhaps it will appear there soon, so if you have questions you can wait for the article, or shoot me here/in pm but I'm not sure I'll be able to answer fast. Thanks for reading!
Gratz. Very cool build! I played against "M@verick" online and gotta say it's indeed a surprisingly solid deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by door
Q: Why Birds over Hierarchs - just for SoFI?
Edit: 23 land seems excessive alongside 3 Birds, 4 Vials and 2 Wayfarers. Obviously 23 didn't keep you from winning, but don't you think 22 might the correct amount?
Congrats on your finish,
Few interesting questions (can be a hint to article which are you writing):
- Singleton rishadan port - is 6th off-color land gives enough value for its cost of destabilize your color mana - specially when your vial wasn't on opening hand ?
- how Eladamri's Call as GSZ substitute for vial build was working for you ?
- single crop rotation - I understand that it powerup your DD-Sage plan did it matter in your plays ?
- Surgical Exctraction / Oozes - you didn't face any gy-based decks - with crop rotation did you would replace 1 Surgical for Bojuka ?
- 3 Revokers MD and 2 more Pithing Needle on sb - that's quite a lot - how it was in practice ?
- 3 Miracles in Swiss - thats very though MU for Maverick specially Vial build - from perspective on those matches what would you change MD/SB ?
- in top you faced two D&T - looks like meta was very focused on Vial decks, you said that your strategy was take off vials and name them with revokers - your sb didn't contain more removal which is the key in creature-centric mirrors how you deal with turn 1 mom - keeping hands with StP, like vs Goblins ?
Good luck with writing I will link the article in primer (probably should also update it with few recent lists based on last tournaments)
Grats on your finish, door.
It seems like Dark Depths did quite a bit of work for you. When did you normally get it online?
I'm also suprised that you only run one SFM. Vial Maverick is normally more equipment-centric to compensate for the lack of GSZ.
Congrats on the split! It's great to finally see someone go all the way in a huge tourney with Maverick with Depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by door
No maze of ith? Is that standard in vial builds?
I am glad you did such a good job. Congratulations on your finish, Door.
You won ANT 2-0 twice, wow!
Birds of paradise is undervalued (even more if it is signed :P). It´s a beast carryng a SOFI.
There is a common belief that GW can´t beat miracles. That not happens to GW vial, at least in my experience. I dont know Ilya´s deck, which have a fast clock with DD, but I main 2 gaddock very hardly countereable thanks to vial and caverns, and protected with mothers and safekeepers. Stoneforge is also a house, and with equipments in battlefield, all creatures become killing machines.
I am surprised that Ilya just play one stoneforge. ¿what about oozes? ¿did they work well?
I have never thought about siding out aether vial agaisnt DnT. But I will consider in the future.
Congratulations door, I’m really happy you did great with Vial Maverick + DD combo, my favorite deck!
Your rework of the list is extremely interesting, love your land toolbox. Only question, why two basic plains?
Thanks everyone! As Fatal suggested I will use these questions as tips for my primer.
birds let block delvers and tombstalkers, also they deliver equipments past blockers. Sometimes it lets you not lose against fast delver or win on a spot just with a BoP and sword. I am convinced that this is more important than some additional damage dealt with exalted from hierarchs. I won against DnT with bird wielding jitte with one counter, when there was Thalia, Mystic and jitte under opponent's control. As a bonus I can name noble hierarch with revoker in mirror match.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
23rd land is Dark Depths, which occupies a spell slot. 22 mana lands is thoroughly tested and is optimal for me in the current build.
Thanks a lot! Those are some interesting questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
- actually it's 7th - on turn1 Gaea's cradle doesn't give mana either. But for me it's optimal. In M@verick's list from BoM it was 6/22, where two lands are Cavern of Souls, which sometimes miss the next needed creature type.
- Call is better than Zenith here for 3 major reasons: it searches for not just a green creature, it searches what you can currently put with aether vial, and it's instant, meaning it's much better in responce to show and tell at least. It is sided in when the game is around my particular creatures and it is completely unpredictable. You can call for Teeg and put it into the battlefield from vial in responce to a miracle trigger, for example. Call searches for an instant answer unlike zenith, which is more like a 1 each additional green creature.
- I think I would not. While oozes serve as a universal anti BGx and graveyard strategy hate, surgicals are sided in mainly against punishing fires, combo decks and miracles (when they don't play RiP against me) and can give a more various effect. Bojuka bog is a 1 timer and too clunky for me today. When I extract something I prefer to be sure my opponent doesn't topdeck another copy in future. Also sometimes it's very useful to shuffle their topdeck away. So it's not all about anti graveyard..
- in my tests revokers were always rocking in two most difficult matches - miracles and jund. They have only two disadvantages - 2 in manacost and being a subject for a creature removal. I had 2 slots in my SB and couldn't decide whether I put chokes there or mirran crusaders or smth else. Then I realised I could fix both matches with pithing needles. As a bonus they are awesome against grim lavamancers, the most deadly t1 creature against me. I didn't encounter jund this time, but played 3 times against miracles, and needles made a huge contribution to my victories.
- Though miracles is still a very difficult match up, I'd like to play well enough against other match ups too, so I think I would not change anything. But indeed, there can be done more. Krosan grip would be better than harmonic sliver and 1 or 2 surgical extractions might be changed into chokes. I think, miracles match up would be around 70% after sb in this case. But in a big tournament you can face anything, so I would not make my sb so narrow. Perhaps, it's easier to pick up another deck to fight miracles, isn't it?
- I was preparing for a more midrange/control/combo metagame, so I didn't put additional removal into sb intentionally. Against DnT my hope was to get early equipment online or at least play revoker/needle naming mother of runes. I play only 3 of my own mothers and 2 sylvan safekeeper, so it would not hirt me that much. Also I knew, no one was ready for the Dark Depths combo so it always was my secret tech, especially against non-white decks.
I always play careful with the combo, as it takes lots of my resources in case of a fail, so I try not to blind play into it. Usually it is assembled with an active knight when there are no wastelands on the horizon and mom/safekeeper can protect it from a possible StP. So it is more about a perfect moment than an AS SOON AS POSSIBLE strike. I had some best case scenarios on turn 5 I think during Ovino. Anyway, it is always faster, even with time for assebling the combo, than it would take through an old school beating with a knight, especially when they can have infinite blockers with Young Pyromancer these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Stoneforge is not as good as it was some time ago, so I decided to lower it's count. There are too much stifles, lavamancers (grixis) and abrupt decays, together with sb Wear/tear, smash to smithereens and ancient grudge these days. Partly it was changed into dark depths+crop rotation and oozes to help me with most problematic matches. On the other hand I left a minimum package, which mainly serves as an anti tribal hate and an additional card advantage in grindy situations. I don't think GSZ can be compensated by Stoneforge mystic. GSZ mainly makes the deck more consistent overall and helps to get early Teeg/ooze online, while SFM serves as an additional game plan of assembling a nearly unanswerable robot + always helps in a tribal/control meta.
no place for maze unfortunately, even with crop rotation. Also all decks that I want to have maze against play wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Thanks, Luis! Oozes served their role against Grixis and ANT, though they are mainly against Jund, but I'm happy I did not encounter it. The problem with SFM is that they are always much worse after SB. So I decided to lower their count. Against DnT I sided out 3 Thalia, 2/4 Vials (depending on who was playing first), 0-2 oozes, 0-1 crop and DD (depending on how aware of it was the opponent) and put in 2 oblivion ring, 1 sliver, 1 grip, 2 pithing needle, 1 e-call. I think DnT is more vial-dependent than merfolks and goblins, and without vials it is a very-very slow hate deck, while maverick plays easily with only lands and birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by M@verick
Thank you! I have more white than green t1 plays, besides it is much more important against delver decks to be able to cast StP and have less forests to play around Submerge, plus wayfarer likes white mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
I had a quick question for you Door. Why did you go Sword of fire and Ice over the other options (notably, Sword of light and shadow or Sword of feast and Famine)? Is there a specific reason or do you think the sword of fire and ice is just the better sword, overall?
How is maverick surviving in this meta? There's so much red around with punishing fire, pyroclasm, and rough/tumble.
Curious as to what I can do to help the bant list.
@door
Congrats!
Questions:
How was Garruk Relentless?
How was Crop Rotation?
Would you make any changes to the deck now?
Since Maverick kinda sucks in the current MTGO meta, I'm going to brew and test some G/W stuff on Cockatrice:
- Elvish Spirit Guide: The general problem of our hatebears in the combo match-up is often that they come into play too late. ESG might help here (and helps against Blood Moon, too). The card disadvantage is probably going to be the bane of the card, but who knows until it's actually tested?
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Sigarda on T3? Sounds hilarious! Having another fetchable, broken accelerant aside from Cradle certainly has potential and is the stone-cold fucking nuts with Quirion Ranger/Scryb Ranger. Already had a game where I was able to cast a Batterskull (:6: due to Thalia) and Sigarda on the same turn, despite being stuck on 3 Savannah +1 Hierarch the entire game. Also one of the reasons why I'm trying out Garruk Relentless.
- Sigarda: An absolutely game-winning bomb. Hopefully even easier to power out with Rofellos.
- Garruk Relentless: Easier to cast with all the green mana accelerants than Elspeth (although I might slam her somewhere into my 75 again for more value). Has also synergy with Master of the Wild Hunt, although that synergy is proably hardly going to matter.
Sideboard:
- Sylvan Safekeeper: Sometimes good, sometimes terrible. He's needed in certain match-ups, but blows in others. He might fit better into the sideboard, but needs to stick around somewhere in the 75 to keep your key cards alive.
- Cold-Eyed Selkie: Tech from Sunyveil. Between Exalted triggers and Jitte, it's an absolute must kill for all Islands players. If it can stick around, it takes the game over quickly. An unblockable beater who not only beats down for 5-6 damage, but also draws 5-6 cards a turn is nightmare for player on the other side of the table.
I left a small mystic package in my list basically for additional card advantage in control match ups and as a strategy against tribal decks. In these cases sword of fire and ice serves me in the best way. Additionally it is good against the popular young pyromancer decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
As long as the metagame does not shift, I wouldn't change anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by litenkatt
Albeit I rarely saw Garruk in my hand that day, he was very good. I resolved it only in couple of games, but it won me those games.
Crop rotation is mostly for a faster comboing off, and against any deck it is always a big surprise. I like it in my list.
@ door
Congratulations on your finish! And it's great to read your thoughts and insight behind your card choices.
You didn't play against any of the S&T based combo decks (Sneak and Show or Omni-tell). How do you feel about these matchups? and could you go over your boarding strategy?
I'm playing in a large tournament this weekend where I expect a lot of combo ( Storm, omni, sneak n show, elves) rug delver, punishing jund,some esper blade I have this list and wanted some input on it
4 savanna
4 windswept Heath
1 verdent
2 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy
2 cavern of souls
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 geaa cradle
1 sylvan library
4 green sun
2 jitte
4 swords to plowshare
4 noble
4 mom
4 knight
4 Thalia
1 teeg
2 pridemage
2 aven mind censor
1 scryb ranger
2 revoker
2 scavenging ooze
1 sylvan safekeeper
SB: 3 oring
4 canonist
2 path
2 rip 3 choke( maybe Armageddon?)
1 flex (bog, harmonic sliver,angel of dispar,linvala
I wouldn't be too keen to run Maverick in such a meta. Those combo match-ups are mostly terrible (Storm when they win the dice roll, Omni and Elves are horrible, Sneak and Show is ok unless they get one of those nut hands) and Punishing Jund is going to ruin you as well. You have been warned.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdiamonds
2 Cavern of Souls seems excessive, especially if you want to to cast stuff like Teeg or Pridemage. Maybe you should run another fetch instead.
You're quite heavy on combo, so I would also recommend a second Teeg in the MD.
Since you run Cradle, I would try to fit in a Sigarda as well. She's a huge bomb and if you're up against DRS, KotR isn't that hot as GSZ target.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Bog in the sideboard.
4 Canonists and 3 O-Rings in the board seem excessive. I would cut two Canonists and at least one O-Ring for 2 E-Tutors and a Tormod's Crypt.
I took Mav to Cleveland this weekend and my first 4 rounds were Lands w/ P-Fire, Punishing Jund, Punishing Nic Fit, and Goblins. It was like my worst nightmare realized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Someone posted somewhere he did some initial testing with a full playset of Elvish Spirit Guide some time ago.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/69.jpg
Maybe it's just me being impatient, but against quite a few archetypes out there Maverick feels to slow. So I played about 20 games with ESG and came to the conclusion that she deserves further testing.
Enabling turn_1 Thalias, SFMs, Gaddocks, Canonists, Vial+MoR, Safekeeper+Wayfarer, Turn 1 Bird+Mother-->turn 2 protected KotR, etc. felt actually quite powerful. Needless to mention her bear body is underwhelming, which is why I recommend maxing out on SFMs and thus increasing the chance to be able to pimp her via equipment if you draw her in the mid/late game.
Has anyone given her a spin? What were your findings?
You are just telling the best case scenarios and i see only the bad ones. It is one time "consumable" mana source which means you got 1 card less than your opponent and please dont talk about its body, vanilla 2/2.. Imagine you use this to cast 2nd turn KotR and it gets fowed or dazed, you are royally screwed. Against aggro decks the card advantage is the key, not the fact that you have something fast in the table. I mean compare this to a BoB, well im not even gonna do it.. And as for the early hate against combo decks, if you play 1st turn hatebear with this it again means that you have 1 card less and it couldve been another hatebear and in my experience usually how i win combos is to have either turn 1 discard followed by hatebear or 2 x hatebears. Cause they can easily kill 1 hatebear.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
You make it look like a bad Lotus Petal, while its vanilla body can indeed become a threat when equipped. As I mentioned before, ideally the SFM count would have to be upped +1/+2 to pimp those midgame 2/2ers more reliably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkku
It's funny how you bring up Daze as a counter argument, since ESG is awesome at dodging these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkku
Being able to counter strike your Aggro opponent with a Jitted critter one turn earlier can actually make the difference. You have to acknowledge that the MtG cosm is not as black and white as you want to make it appear. Maverick is a super flexible deck and can adjust to the game better than many archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkku
Being able to disrupt your Combo opponent via discard on turn is beneficial, however I had a straight GW list in mind when posting my thoughts on ESG - my bad: should have specified. One of the main reasons I started testing ESG is that hating combo on turn 2 (especially when on the draw) can be too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkku
Let's be realistic here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkku
ESG is only worth testing in pure GW since combo can stomp it on the play before it can get any hatebear online. And that happens quite alot. Since GW Maverick has no access to T1 discard, it might a possible workaround, even if it isn't ideal.
Of course it's an underwhelming draw later on, but the main problem I could see with it is the card disadvantage.
As far as running into Daze is concerned, if you misplay it like that, you deserve to lose. It actually counters Daze if played correctly.
In the end, ESG might not be worth it, but testing can't hurt, can it?
PS:
On a not so serious note if one wants to be flashy: Chancellor of the Tangle + Fauna Shamans for hilarity. Makes me wish SotF wasn't banned.
Went 3-3 at the Gpt in La. Beat dredge, maverick, and esper blade. Lost to tin fins, painters servant, and goblins
I'm heavily leaning back to Maverick in recent weeks. Part of it is because I'm sick of these motherfucking Delvers messin up my tournaments. Have y'all seen tge top 16 from Milwaukee? Six Delver decks in the T9-16. Ridiculous!
What has been people's impressions with the black splashed Maverick for DRS?
Has Thoughtseize proved useful vs Combo? Does it matter vs Control?
How shaky has the mana base been?
Which Planeswalker is the best in the main? Which planeswalkers have been best post board? One or two?
Has reliance on KotR been sidelined?
Is RIP worth including if it shuts off Knight and DRS?
I went 4-2 at Jupiter I think I played pretty well I like the list and will tune it for GP DC
[DECK]
4 savannah
4 windswept Heath
2 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
1 plains
1 cavern
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 gaeas cradle
2 forest
1 karakas
1 elspeth knight errent
4 swords
4 gsz
1 sylvan
1 jitte
1 batter skull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 noble
4 knight
4 mom
4 Thalia
2 sfm
1 sigarda
1 teeg
2 pridemage
1 scryb ranger
2 ooze
SB
2 enlighten tutor
1 oring
1 angel of dispar
1 canonist
1 dragons claw
1 harmonic sliver
1 crypt
1 rip
1 linvala
1 thorn of amathyst
1 revoker
1 jitte
1 graffdiggets cage
1 path
[/DECK]
R1 mana less dredge 2-0
R2 maverick 0-2
R3 pyromancer opposition 2-1
R4 maverick 2-0
R5 TES 0-2
R6 TES 2-0(
Over all is cut it to 61 and put more anti storm cards in SB
Since the MODO metagame still sucks for Maverick, I'm currently experimenting with a modified list of Fabian Görzgen's GP list:
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Punishing Fire
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
PF is for fighting off Jund, BUG Shardless and Planeswalkers. Debateable - could be and Abrupt Decay/Bob package as well since GWb would have a more stable mana base.
Double Teeg + third in the board is for Miracles and various combo decks. Safekeeper is there to seal the deal vs. Miracles and other control decks.
Elspeth and Garruk are for the fair match-ups like Jund, BUG and Miracles. Xenagos in the board might be interesting, too, or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad if I go for GWb.
Needle over Revoker because creature removal sucks, especially against Miracles.
Grafdigger's Cage is against GY decks and Elves.
Grip against Miracles and other stuff you're going to hate to see, like Painter. Has been pretty good so far.
Extraction against PF, super-fast GY decks and random combo.
I'm not sold on Stony Silence and E-Plague in the board yet and need to see them in action first to make a verdict on them. I'm also not really comfortable with the lack of fast anti-storm answers and MD Bog is debateable.
Personally, I like the black splash. DRS provides lots of utility and T1 discard is pretty relevant vs combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
The manabase is pretty stable.
Can't really answer the PW question since I only recently bought a Garruk.
You can't rely on KotR as your main threat anymore since RiP and especially DRS makes her his bitch. RiP also hurts, so including it yourself is a bad idea. I like a 3/2 split between KotR and Ooze as main threats with Sigarda as GSZ target (totally doable since the GWb build can afford to run Cradle).
I sleeved up a GWb list with bobs and deathrites and found the mana wanting. There's a few turn 1 plays that you want to make with a turn 2 followup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Turn 1 mom, mana dork, GSZ
Turn 2 bob, thalia, teeg, mana dork (if the turn 1 play was mom)
All of this while being aware of Wasteland (and now blood moon, I guess). Playing Scrubland is really bad even though it enables turn 1 mom and turn 2 bob but it doesn't cast any green spells, which the deck is based around. In the same vein, Bayou can't cast Mom on turn 1.
If your metagame has a minimal number of wastelands and blood moons then you can probably afford to be greedy. I question whether or not black is REALLY needed. Why not another Sylvan Library or another way to get card advantage such as with Elspeth or little Garruk?
I'm back to my usual GW(u) build.
I'm meh on the black splash for DRS. While it gives you additional reach, lifegain, and mild mana stability, I've always preferred a more stable initial manabase versus the reach/answers that access to another color gives you. That said, I haven't tested extensively with a solid black splash, but I feel like a tuned G/W list is just as good against combo as a G/W/B list would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Elspeth is best in the main for straight G/W. Relentless is probably better for trip-color builds. I've considered boarding a second elspeth, but one feels like enough for most metas. I've toyed around with Primal Hunter out of the board in G/W with Cradle, and he's such a house. If you're anywhere close to an even board, he'll either stall and help you stabilize puking out 3/3's, or he'll let you bury them in card advantage if you have a huge knight or ooze out. I think having access to two postboard is good for the control/midrange matchups. Primal Hunter especially since his beasts survive Punishing against Jund, Shardless against BUG, and will trade for most creatures that you will encounter.
I think KoTR is still a really good card, but she's not the huge beatstick she used to be. I wouldn't count on finishing games with a 10/10+ knight smashing through with the same regularity as in the pre-DRS/RiP era. She's a lot more useful for utility, and I think ooze is one of the deck's main beatsticks now, as he multitasks shutting of DRS/shrinking goyfs while getting huge at the same time.
RiP is totally worth it. Opposing DRS can be a huge problem for a deck with only 4-5 point removal spells, and being able to shut them off with additional splash hate against some of the format's combo decks (Reanimator, Fins, Dredge, Storm) and fair decks (RUG/Aggro Loam/Jund/Shardless) is enormous. If you really are pressed for spots while boarding, you can side out knights in favor of RiPs, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having both.
To be fair, you don't run a black splash because DRS is a funny guy, but because most fast combo will assrape you on T2 if they win the dice roll, hence the need of T1 discard because your T2 bears won't matter if you're already dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goin Aggro
I'm interested how exactly you plan to survive that with GW, except hoping for a combo-light meta or winning the dice roll. Do you run Leyline of Sanctity or Mindbreak Trap in the board?
RiP works in KotR-light builds, but Ooze also gets hit by it, so calling it the main beatstick now is a bit of overstatement. There are still lots of creature-light decks out there and some just don't put anything into the GY to feed it, like Miracles.
The black splash has been working pretty great for me so far. The reach of DRS, options of Abrupt Decay or Thoughtseize MB, and having access to more SB hate like Engineered Plague and Zealous Persecution in the SB have all proven useful so far. Having a lower amount of X/1s to soften the Golgari Charm blowout is relevant as well. Even though DRS blocking Lackey is a meme at this point, Goblins has been becoming more popular in recent months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Thoughtseize definitely feels important to live long enough to get hatebears online. As far as control goes, I've only brought them in to replace some of the dead cards and it's been working pretty well. Mostly only applies to Miracles though.
Only mana problems I've ran into is not being able to use DRS for ramping. Some combination of not having fetches in hand, them holding up a fetch until my EOT, quickly running out of lands, or even opposing DRS have been the most common scenarios.
My 75 now only has 1 and it's a Garruk Relentless in the side. Fits the mana base better, kills problematic creatures like Baleful Strix or Painter's Servant, defends itself through the token army better, shuts down most midrange decks with the flipped token army, and can tutor up finishers to end the grindy games. Jumping Knights just isn't enough for me as long as Strix is everywhere.
I've found KOTR to be even more important as far as sending creatures into battle goes. Dropping my exalted creatures from 6 to 3 has made my bears become a lot less intimidating.
RIP just doesn't feel as necessary with DRS being able to nail an important card in the same timeframe. Ooze and Bojuka Bog/Crypt are enough against decks like Loam, Punishing Jund, and RUG Delver.
I have done some semi-extensive testing with Elvis Spirit Guide (about 50 games) over the past week or so.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/56269db2f...riqjo1_400.jpg
..and I've fallen madly in love with her. I ain't shittin ya: we're beyond dating at this point - yes, you heard me right: she proposed and I said yes.
At first I was like: I hate losing to Oops-I-Win.decs and included her to power out hate bears on turn 1, which indeed worked out nicely, so we went for dinner quite frequently and hung out a bit more and soon I realized she's more than just a fling. Turns out T1 Thalia is a beast against numerous archetypes, gotta love the synergy with Wayfarer too and going to town with Jitte/SoFI one full turn earlier is nothing to sneeze at - trust me, the look on my opponents' faces was priceless everytime an equipped dude comes rushing in (pun intended) - Elvis helped me become the beatdown against archetypes against whom GW Maverick commonly plays the control part.
It's true, the Faerie Queen of Rock'n'Roll means card disadvantage, however Maverick can easily get away with that due to the sheer amount of C/A spells: SFM, Revoker, SoFI, Jitte, Wayfarer, KotR, Mother/Safekeeper (oftentimes 2for1s), and Gaddock.
As suggested earlier I upped the SFM count to employ a higher equipment density making up for her lameness after the early game.
Here's my current list for reference:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 SoLaS
I've actually tested something similar, and it works out quite nicely. At the very least the guides pick up equipment.
@klaus what's the reason you dont run any Scavenging Oozes? I saw another similar list that top 8'd that too didn't have any Oozes MB nor SB. How do you win against graveyard decks?
He has 6 ways to tutor for the bog in the mainboard (wayfarer and knight), as well as the extractions in the side. The coolest thing about his particular build is that it forgoes the zenith garbage all-together.
<3 you Klaus, finally someone that tests things to determine whether or not they like them, as opposed to just doing whatever some other guys says.
I had actually cut revokers to keep zeniths in, although since you cut arbor, the card seems to get worse and worse. I think I actually like revokers and the second canopy over an arbor and the zeniths.