Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
Not to pick on your list in particular but I am curious as to how people are blurring the line between BUG control and tempo. The lack of synergy between shaman and goose? The presence of hymn but not daze? It seems wrong to me to hit your opponent over the head with a hymn and then proceed to nibble them to death. Does anyone else feel that going big with Jace of our own is just superior to threatening Jace with a mongoose in these colors?
Signorini, I noticed you were jamming your cantrips extremely aggressively, do you think 3 Tombstalkers might be too many or would Thoughtscour be an efficient use of resources?
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Three Tombstalkers is the right number after lots of testing. He is the most robust threat in the deck right now and I want to see a copy almost every game. As far as cantrips are concerned, during one match I can remember having multiple brainstorms in hand, and trying to find some early action with them. In the early game if you are threat light or just want to hit someone with Hymn, it is correct to aggressively use your cantrips to generate some tempo. There is such a thing as being too patient. This is not really a control deck, you need to put pressure on people.
Thoughtscour is just not very good. It offers you no selection and really doesn't do anything but cost you a mana. On rare occasions it might enable 2 Tombstalkers, but I would play Preordain any day over that card. The deck doesn't have much trouble casting a timely Stalker as it is.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Moving forward, it seems like the graveyard is a resource that will be attacked more and more. Deathrite mirrors are going to become more common, good UW Miracles builds already include at least 2 Relics and/or Rest in Peace in the 75, etc.
Given that, is Tombstalker really going to be a viable card in the future? I guess the only profitable answers are StP, Jace, and Baleful Strix (love that guy!), but just casting him seems hard.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telperion
Not to pick on your list in particular but I am curious as to how people are blurring the line between BUG control and tempo. The lack of synergy between shaman and goose? The presence of hymn but not daze? It seems wrong to me to hit your opponent over the head with a hymn and then proceed to nibble them to death. Does anyone else feel that going big with Jace of our own is just superior to threatening Jace with a mongoose in these colors?
Blurring the line between control and tempo because the deck runs 2 Liliana?
There is also a lack of synergy between Shaman and Goyf and Shaman and Tombstalker. The lack of synergy between Shaman and Goose has never been an issue. Usually, you can eat lands your your opponent's graveyard - we play in a fetch, non-basic, and Wasteland heavy environment. Eating sorceries and instants comes later in the game, and you can eat those out of your opponent's graveyard, too.
I originally tried Delver in this build, but I was having trouble with blind-flipmanship. You look at Signorini's and Hatfield's lists - 20 lands, 14 creatures, 1 Sylvan Library, and 25 instants/sorceries (with 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders). Without a cantrip, you've got about 50% odds to blind flip (considering that you will be thinning your deck with fetches). The build I am running has 20 lands, 15 creatures, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Lilianas and 23 instants/sorceries. I just wasn't flipping Delver enough, so I switched to Mongoose. So far, it has worked very well.
Hymn and Daze? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive? I think the lack of Stifle and Daze seems more prominent to me. I'm also running 4 1-cc discard spells, which can let me know if my Daze is good or not. Could you explain this? I don't see why Hymn/Daze is overly strong in unison- they are both solid cards, but I don't see why they are particularly good together.
Jace of our own is good, but I think this is where we begin to blur the lines between tempo and control. If BB1 Liliana blurs the line, does UU2 Jace push it over the line? This deck already wants to have BB for Hymn and Tombstalker (which I'm not running in my build). Liliana seems like a natural way to lock down the game. If Jace is a concern, I think the best bet is splashing R for REB/PB. I noticed Nitewolf ran Clique and Jace, Alix opted for Pithing Needle and other small-costed options. I am interested as to the decisions that led each player to make their sideboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Moving forward, it seems like the graveyard is a resource that will be attacked more and more. Deathrite mirrors are going to become more common, good UW Miracles builds already include at least 2 Relics and/or Rest in Peace in the 75, etc.
Given that, is Tombstalker really going to be a viable card in the future? I guess the only profitable answers are StP, Jace, and Baleful Strix (love that guy!), but just casting him seems hard.
I think you hit the nail on the head - RiP wrecks this deck. RiP may be a very good reason for running Delver, because without Delver, Goyf, Goose, Tombstalker, and Deathrite are all neutered. Even after Abrupt Decay, the graveyard is still only contains 1 card.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nitewolf9
Three Tombstalkers is the right number after lots of testing. He is the most robust threat in the deck right now and I want to see a copy almost every game. As far as cantrips are concerned, during one match I can remember having multiple brainstorms in hand, and trying to find some early action with them. In the early game if you are threat light or just want to hit someone with Hymn, it is correct to aggressively use your cantrips to generate some tempo. There is such a thing as being too patient. This is not really a control deck, you need to put pressure on people.
Thoughtscour is just not very good. It offers you no selection and really doesn't do anything but cost you a mana. On rare occasions it might enable 2 Tombstalkers, but I would play Preordain any day over that card. The deck doesn't have much trouble casting a timely Stalker as it is.
How did you feel about the singleton Library and Snuff Out? The list you guys ran is nearly identical to what I've been testing, but I have a couple Grisly Salvage in those slots. I'm not totally sold on it yet, but I do like that it digs really deep for land or creatures, and I almost always want more of one of those, and it powers out Tombstalkers like nobody's business. So far at least, it's been a really solid cantrip in that regard.
Also, care to weigh in on Hymn vs. Thoughtseize?
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Library beats control if it resolves, and I really like having the 5 removal spells in the maindeck, probably going to dismember instead of snuff out. Salvage does seem interesting though. I'm not sure how to evaluate it because I haven't really played with the card before, but it seems like having either a threat or wasteland when you need it could be potent. It's also cute with the sideboard darkblasts.
Hymn is just the more powerful card, and easier to cast with Deathrite. I really enjoy a turn 2 that consists of Waste you, Hymn you off of shaman. Or simply being able to play it early through daze. It also complements the LD alot of the time.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Congrats on the top 8, I was rooting for ya. I've always been a fan of thoughtseize over hymn, but the mana boost you get from deathrite shaman might be enough to make me change my mind. I was thinking that abrupt decay and deathrite shaman are great cards and that I could play this deck again...then I saw Shaheen rip lingering souls and it brought on horrible flashbacks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
Jace of our own is good, but I think this is where we begin to blur the lines between tempo and control. If BB1 Liliana blurs the line, does UU2 Jace push it over the line? This deck already wants to have BB for Hymn and Tombstalker (which I'm not running in my build). Liliana seems like a natural way to lock down the game. If Jace is a concern, I think the best bet is splashing R for REB/PB. I noticed Nitewolf ran Clique and Jace, Alix opted for Pithing Needle and other small-costed options. I am interested as to the decisions that led each player to make their sideboard.
I don't think it's a matter of keeping to a strong macro strategy so much as it is filling holes. While Jace doesn't kill your opponent, it's kind of like the idiot-proof way to go long. It also helps that most of the decks that go long also get shut out by a Jace, particularly off of shaman on the draw.
I'm also trying Liliana the Game-state Preserver in my board for a similar role, as some decks just can't ever beat a good walker and she fuels stalkers. She looks pretty silly when Jace comes down though.
Dan, your list is packing a relatively heavy green requirement. I haven't really jumped onto the abrupt decay bandwagon yet, a little because I don't like paying 2 mana for an answer but mostly because I dislike exposing green sources. Was that problematic at all? To what extent is it worth the risk?
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Abrupt Decay is the first two-mana removal spell you don't have to feel bad about playing in Legacy. It's uncounterable, which is a concise way of saying you won't get embarrassed by Daze every time you spend your second turn trying to kill an attacking Delver. And it's versatile; now we have a Threshold-style deck that has access to a full playset of maindeck Disenchants when it needs it.
I've yet to meet anyone who hates paying two mana for a removal spell more than I do, but Abrupt Decay impressed me. It's definitely better than the Smothers and Go for the Throats we're used to.
As far as exposing green sources goes, I also had similar concerns prior to Sunday, but Deathrite Shaman does a lot of work in this area. I also don't find that you have to cast early Abrupt Decays very often; I think it was wanting to deploy Tarmogoyfs that forced me to expose my green sources most of the time (and if they want to Wasteland you while you're beating their head in with a 4/5, so be it).
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
You'll notice in Dan's list that he cut the second Tropical Island in favor of the second Bayou. This, along with 9 fetches and the Shamans, are enough to have consistent and reliable access to Green mana when you need it. I did a bit of testing online with the build with a few tweaks:
-1 Snuff Out +1 Dismember, as per Dan's suggestion
SB:
2 Jace, TMS
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb (kind of got the feeling that these may be better off as Tormod's Crypt)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
I went undefeated for the evening, beating Sneak and Show, BUG Control, BG Aggro (essentially TA minus the blue element and more creatures), TES, Death and Taxes, and Mana-less Ichorid. Granted, this is just cockatrice, where the decklists and playskill of the opponents are sometimes dubious at best, but I do think it's a fair indicator of the power level of the deck.
It's amazing how much work that Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman do, essentially giving the deck a 'pre-sideboarded' element by letting you interact with the graveyard and artifacts/enchantments in game 1. This also strengthens the archetype by freeing up some sideboard space for the more troublesome matchups, namely aggro. Beating Dredge game 1 shows how relevant Shaman can be. I was able to use Decay to kill Liliana otV a few times, as well as a Bitterblossom against my BG opponent. Shaman also pulled me out of mana-screw, and let me accelerate into a turn 3 Jace on the draw (which then answer my opponent's Shown Emrakul!) Even against my Storm opponent, Shaman did work by wittling down his life total, keeping Cabal Ritual out of threshold range, and (I'm assuming) cutting off Past in Flames/Ill Gotten Gains as a route to victory. But BUG has always preyed on Storm, so this result is nothing new.
I think Dread of Night is an essential card for the deck right now. It has a low mana investment and can be deployed proactively (unlike options such as Golgari Charm, which need to be held for the right moment -- and costing 3 against Thalia makes it seem pretty bad to me despite its utility). It being a static effect is incredibly relevant as well. Everyone picking the deck up should strongly consider playing at least one copy, and more if their meta warrants it.
I also love Massacre, because even against non-white aggro decks, it still functions as pseudo-Damnation. It's a bit questionable since we play Shaman and Delver, but there are times when you really just need to clear the board of a bunch of critters.
I think Dan may be right regarding a fourth-color splash being unnecessary, although I just wanted to present the option as completely reasonable if the meta ever warrants it. I had tested the red splash on a previous day and had no issues gaining access to Red mana against my control opponents.
We may see decks adapt to Hymn and Decay by playing more Misdirections or Diverts, but this shouldn't be a problem if you try to hold a Daze or FoW for their response. I suppose decks could also try bringing in Leyline of Sanctity, but this card is garbage, since a) they're forced to mulligan into it, b) it only pre-empts about 4 cards in our deck anyways, and c) any further Leylines they draw are a waste. Another approach that control decks may adopt is playing Ancestral Vision, which while a good card, is really only relevant if suspended within the first few turns. TA, unlike other BUG decks, actually has a fast clock. The most frustrating option I could see White bringing in or playing maindeck is Rest In Peace, but this too gets answered by Decay, and we can always just kill them with Delver, Clique, or Jace.
All in all, I feel like TA is going to be a DTB for the forseeable future. Even some of our most dreaded matchups such as Burn or Merfolk don't feel so scary anymore thanks to the new tools at our disposal. Hell, even Choke isn't as big of a deal.
tl;dr: AMERICA, **** YEAH, COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHER****ING DAY YEAH!
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Obfuscate Freely
Abrupt Decay is the first two-mana removal spell you don't have to feel bad about playing in Legacy. It's uncounterable, which is a concise way of saying you won't get embarrassed by Daze every time you spend your second turn trying to kill an attacking Delver. And it's versatile; now we have a Threshold-style deck that has access to a full playset of maindeck Disenchants when it needs it.
As far as exposing green sources goes, I also had similar concerns prior to Sunday, but Deathrite Shaman does a lot of work in this area. I also don't find that you have to cast early Abrupt Decays very often; I think it was wanting to deploy Tarmogoyfs that forced me to expose my green sources most of the time (and if they want to Wasteland you while you're beating their head in with a 4/5, so be it).
Yeah thanks for the good explanation. I usually hold my green sources as is for Tarmogoyf/Library but I also don't play anything else in the color (yet). And that's probably wrong for the time being, but whatever it's a learning process.
Quote:
I've yet to meet anyone who hates paying two mana for a removal spell more than I do, but Abrupt Decay impressed me. It's definitely better than the Smothers and Go for the Throats we're used to.
Nah you've met me before, but we talked about the greatness of Tidal Influence instead. Up until now I've been meaning to play with and learn from you guys in DC but Wednesday night classes kind of ruin that. I'd like to go over it more with you and Dan in the next few weeks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
It's amazing how much work that Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman do, essentially giving the deck a 'pre-sideboarded' element by letting you interact with the graveyard and artifacts/enchantments in game 1.
So true, as I've been trying to profess in Junk. Also, Sylvan Library is a tank against Control, in my Team America build, I'll be running two, even if I see it a bit too often.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
A minor suggestion to Dan's build I'd make:
-1 Delver of Secrets
+1 Deathrite Shaman
Rationale:
-While this does lower your blue count, you still have a pretty healthy number of 19 blue cards, with potentially more in the board to pitch to FoW.
-Delver is not *quite* the powerhouse here as he is in RUG. Without Burn and Spell Pierces, one Delver is not typically enough to 'get there' against most opponents.
-This deck does not have quite as high of a density of instants/sorceries to consistently flip Delver blindly. Delver is often better as a turn two drop set up with a Ponder/Brainstorm. Delver is less threatening as a one-drop and can go unanswered for a period of time, whereas many decks can't afford to let a Shaman go unchecked. If I am holding both cards in hand on the play, I personally tend to play the Shaman first unless I know I'm up against combo.
-Shaman can be cast off of a Bayou. Those awkard Bayou, Wasteland + 5 spells hands are more keepable if you have a Shaman to deploy.
-Shaman provides graveyard disruption, mana-fixing and acceleration, helps you play around Daze, provides life-gain and even functions as an 'unblockable' threat (though at a slightly slower rate of damage). Delver just turns sideways.
-Shaman is a superior turn one 'answer' to cards like Goblin Lackey and Nimble Mongoose.
-A minor point: Shaman doesn't die to Snuff Out, Darkblast or Ghastly Demise, and also survives Engineered Explosives or a Deed activation on zero.
-Playing a full playset increases your density of graveyard hate, potentially freeing up some sideboard space. Additionally, it makes a sideboard with higher-costing bombs a more reasonable choice.
I would argue that Deathrite Shaman is the superior one-drop for this deck for all of the above reasons. I would also not want to cut another card or a land to fit the fourth Shaman in, but after looking at the list Delver honestly feels like the weakest link in the strategy (though is still strategically important and probably belongs in some number for the tempo build -- though cutting Delver entirely in favor of 2 Cliques and another card is a potential option...). The other option I would consider is cutting a Tarmogoyf, however Goyf is just consistently a powerful threat that is needed for a variety of reasons I won't go into here.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Agree with a lot that you say wcm8.
Here is I think what's going on:
People know Delver is nuts due to RUG's sucess
People realize BUG is strong with Decay and Deathrite
People want to play BUG with Deathrite & Delver and create decks with a higher creature & permanent count.
People realize Delver is not that strong anymore -> no natural flips and "conflicting" turn1 plays with thoughtseizes or deathrite.
People realize BUG has to offer such a strong lategame compared to RUG including supreme graveyard, hand, board & stack control as well as card advantage that it is not necessary to build a deck around delver closing the games fast/keeping opponents in the early game, but that favourable gamestates can be achieved accelerating into "good/grindy" stuff like (snapcaster mage, confidant, loam, library, jace, baleful strix, liliana, shardless agent,...).
If you check TCdecks (Decks: Team America & BUG control; yes they are in the process of separating), you will see that in November already a majority of decks choose not to run Delver.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
Agree with a lot that you say wcm8.
Here is I think what's going on:
People know Delver is nuts due to RUG's sucess
People realize BUG is strong with Decay and Deathrite
People want to play BUG with Deathrite & Delver and create decks with a higher creature & permanent count.
People realize Delver is not that strong anymore -> no natural flips and "conflicting" turn1 plays with thoughtseizes or deathrite.
People realize BUG has to offer such a strong lategame compared to RUG including supreme graveyard, hand, board & stack control as well as card advantage that it is not necessary to build a deck around delver closing the games fast/keeping opponents in the early game, but that favourable gamestates can be achieved accelerating into "good/grindy" stuff like (snapcaster mage, confidant, loam, library, jace, baleful strix, liliana, shardless agent,...).
If you check TCdecks (Decks: Team America & BUG control; yes they are in the process of separating), you will see that in November already a majority of decks choose not to run Delver.
I like the idea of an extra Deathrite, as I basically always wanted one in my opening hand. My only worry with cutting a Delver is going a little bit threat-lite? I tested a lot of games against the UW Miracles deck, and I found they had more than enough removal to make it so I couldn't keep threats on the board, then they ended up locking me out with Jace. Have you guys noticed any sort of trouble with UW Miracles? It could be that I'm not playing the deck right against them...
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I think Delver is important to the archetype (in the Tempo/aggro forms) in that it provides a much needed threat. Deathrite is not enough on its own. Goyf and Stalker are relatively late to the party by themselves. Delver gives you that immediate threat in which you can start to spam tempo answers (discard, counters, removal) while clocking them.
I'm tooling around with a list that runs Cliques for added disruption (combo heavy meta) and cutting Sylvan Library and 1 Daze to bump up to 4 Deathrites and adding 2 Cliques. I've also swaped the singleton Snuffout with Maelstrom Pulse as an answer to bigger threats like Jace or Batterskull.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FubsyGamer
I like the idea of an extra Deathrite, as I basically always wanted one in my opening hand. My only worry with cutting a Delver is going a little bit threat-lite? I tested a lot of games against the UW Miracles deck, and I found they had more than enough removal to make it so I couldn't keep threats on the board, then they ended up locking me out with Jace. Have you guys noticed any sort of trouble with UW Miracles? It could be that I'm not playing the deck right against them...
It's logical - you don't run mongoose. Wihout shroud it is much harder against swords/snapcaster. Problem is that mongoose cannot be played along with deathrite (whoever disagrees should test more :)
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
in response to catmint: Yes, but let's not be hasty and jump to conclusions about the other card choices.
I agree that Delver is inferior in BUG for the all of the reasons outlined in my post as well as yours, and realistically might be worth dropping entirely in favor of other choices. BUG doesn't have the reach that Bolts provide, so any amount of "tempo" generated by a few swings of Delver get lost once he's removed. Control decks can still claw back into the game at 3 life without fear of getting Bolted out of the game. RUG is simply the best pure tempo deck the format has to offer, and I'm not sure BUG should really try to emulate that style of play when it has stronger alternative options.
However, this does not mean that traditional cards such as Daze or Tombstalker aren't still valid options.
Daze enables the deck to more safely tap out on its own turns but still play reactively to the opponent. The deck still plays Wasteland, and decks will at the minimum be forced to slow down their big plays by a turn if they want to play around Daze. Daze remains potent in a way that Stifle can not -- you don't have to leave U untapped to represent the threat of the card, and it's (typically) less of a dead draw against most decks.
Tombstalker is your big trump against RUG. He outsizes all of their threats and aside from post-board Submerge or a miser's Dismember, is immune to all of their removal outside of them 2-for-1'ing themselves on bolts. Along with Shaman and Decay (and a slightly higher land count), this matchup has become hugely lopsided in Team America's favor.
A BUG deck that only runs smaller creatures and higher CMC bombs may still have many of the same advantages as TA and additional advantages against some archetypes; however it may have more trouble in other matchups without these two cards. Not having a big evasive threat can be a problem in some of the aggro matchups, and running a higher curve also exposes you to more difficulty in actually resolving those cards against decks packing mana disruption and/or taxing counters.
The beauty of TA is that it can sideboard into the control role as needed with minimal difficulty.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Daze is a valid card discussing in BUG control or "non delver BUG Midrange" (or whatever you want to call it). Also Tombstalker as an alternative threat can be discussed. I would not call it Team America anymore though.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I disagree entirely on the assessment that Delver is an inferior threat in BUG. Deathrite Shaman and Tombstalker provide plenty of reach, and Hymn/Waste/Daze can keep someone on the back foot pretty handily. He costs 1 mana, is blue, and provides the most efficient clock you could ask for. There is a danger of looking at Legacy entirely through the lens of tier 1 strategies; in reality you are usually playing against a different deck almost every round, and I want to be aggressive in game 1. Most of the time RUG's bolts are clearing a path for their guys anyway, unless they are paired against control. Abrupt Decay means you get to kill almost anything in your way.
And Tombstalker is the ultimate burn spell :cool:.
That being said, there are plenty of ways to take this deck in the spectrum of aggro - control. If a more grindy, planeswalker-based BUG is your cup of tea, that is certainly viable. But I think if you want to run the Daze, Hymn, Wasteland, Tombstalker, and Tarmogoyf package, Delver is a no brainer in that strategy.
