[Deck] Solidarity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

You don't need to see a Tide in your opener to beat aggro by turn 4; you need to find one. Running 4 Cunning Wish and a High Tide in the board ensures that you will be able to grab it on turn 3 and go off on turn 4 if you can't find one naturally with your cantrips. I don't see whats so hard to understand about this. Further, this is not even 'my' playstyle, someone else in the thread came up with it and I was not the only one to play a 4 Wish/3 Tide build.

Sorry but you are not making the deck any stronger by holding onto dreams of turn 3 wins. This point will not make sense to you until you can accept that a 4 Wish/3 Tide build makes Solidarity FAR more consistent on turn 4. Why? You have 7 virtual copies of High Tide; of course, you only have 7 if you consider that you will have your High Tide on turn 3 to set up for a turn 4 kill.

It seems you've like the word only ... Remand is great as a virtual Time Walk, I'm well aware of all its interactions, and its use as a soft-counter to delay the game. I was referring to the fact that there are several phases to the combo itself:

Phase 0 - Set-up
This is where cantrips are played to find the golden ratio of [High Tide, Reset, Meditate]. You don't NEED this combination to go off but its the ideal hand you are trying to scuplt in addition to other cantrips.

Phase 1 - High Tide
If High Tide resolves then we are good to go. If not, a counterwar of sorts ensues.

Phase 2 - Meditates
The means by which we get enough card advantage to hit the 20 storm count. Now ultimately you also play cantrips and such in this phase but they are mostly to find Meditates so that you can gain card advantage and don't have to scramble with your mana and spells to get to a high enough storm count to get the kill.

Phase 3 - Kill
Either we play an arbitrary number of spells and then Remand our own Brainfreeze for the kill, or we play a natural Brainfreeze with storm 20. Then we Cunning Wish for a spell like Stroke/Words of Worship to make them draw a card.

My point was that Remand and Brainfreeze are cards that are relevant to Phase 3. The 4 Wish build makes it far easier to get to Phase 1 by turn 4 because you run MORE copies of High Tide; 7 is greater than 3. The Three Wishes functioned as a means by which to get the card advantage you need in order to have enough spells to get to phase 3. With a heavier business focus, and more Impulse effects, you can consistently dig into the deck for either Resets, High Tides, or Cunning Wishes. You aren't consistently getting to Phase 3 without some card advantage. I decided that I didn't want to be cantripping for 3 different combo pieces and limited that scope to 2 instead, at the expense of Remands strength in turn 0. The metagame didn't force me to play Remand so I didn't. I know how good it is and the current metagame isn't too good for Three Wishes. I would still play a 4 Wish/3 Tide list any day of the week.

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Only that Remand falls into Phase 0, helps achieve Phase 1, and makes killing people with Brainfreeze in Phase 3 happen after you are winded from another possible counter-war in Phase 2.

phaseeee.
phaseeeeeeee.
phaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

This went from discussing PtD vs FoI (as mentioned before it is possible to make the easy cut by going up to 4 Wishes and running 2 PtD 1 BF main) to discussing cutting Remands and Tides from the main-deck. If you run PtD you should REALLY have absolutely zero problems running into Tide without casting Wish. You are going to looking at the top like 20 cards of your library before turn 4 rolls around.

Phases.
Phaseeeeeeee.

I like Remand. I actually plan on playing it in the near future. Three Wishes is kind of like Turnabout. I don't want to play Turnabout but its the next best untap we have access to. The next best version of Meditate is Three Wishes, so I choose to play it to ensure a decent amount of card advantage. Keep in mind I played this in a pre-Mental Misstep metagame. I didn't mention anything about everyone cutting Remands and Tides from the main deck. I was trying to explain how my list worked and you took it as me preaching the gospel truth about how you should change YOUR list. Chill the fuck out man.

In regards to Tides though... I'll continue to rep the 4 Wish 3 Tide config. because its just that good. PtD just makes the deck more streamlined. Running it doesn't mean you shouldn't run more copies of High Tide anyway. If you don't have Cunning Wish in your hand, PtD can find it while FoI could not. I can see where you take issue with Three Wishes vs. Remand. That was a metagame choice. PtD vs. FoI and 4 Wish configs have been pilot styles for quite a long time. They aren't necessarily played together either.

OK, Peer through Depths made a huge difference to my deck in it's first 2 days of testing. Wow, and thanks again.

Here is my current deck build (only 3 Cunning Wish as that is all I own so far -- it is a top priority for the deck though as I think that I am almost where I want to be).

2 x Brain Freeze
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Cryptic Command
3 x Cunning Wish
2 x Flash of Insight
4 x Force of Will
3 x High Tide
4 x Impulse
3 x Meditate
3 x Opt
1 x Peek
4 x Reset
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Peer Through Depths
2 x Turnabout
3 x Remand I am considering cutting down to 2 and make the deck 60 cards.


Land
12 x Island
1 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Blue Sun's Zenith
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Hibernation
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Rebuild
1 x Cryptic Command
1 x Turnabout
1 x Wipe Away

Still doing kitchen table tests vs other decks that I own or my group owns and now that the deck is becoming more consistent it has been noted that few people enjoy playing vs Solidarity. So thanks once again, as I enjoy pissing people off some times too.

Deck advice is always appreciated, and most specifically how to sideboard vs specific decks would help the most.
+1 Surgical Extraction vs certain decks sounds good on paper; but what decks to be specific and what do you take out of the maindeck.

Vs Pox, etc that use Hymn to Tourach I have been cutting Force of Will; but it is still a very very tough game to try and beat "The Rock" etc.

Have you thought on Disrupt before pierce? Is a bit less effective as a counter but it's a cantrip at the same time as disruption.

Cut an FoI from the MD. 2 is at least 1 too many; you think you hate multiples of a card, well you absolutely DESPISE multiple copies of flash of insight in your hand. Not to mention the flashback cost is the main reason and if you have 2 FoI in the graveyard you can only really use one (minor detail). I would also try to get ahold of SNAPCASTER MAGE since snapcaster is sweetness in here and provides CA as well as the occasional answer to a hatebear.

I would also try to fit in the 4th opt, probably over FoI again since FoI isn't the greatest.

@SupREME10
How have you been liking your singleton Cryptic Command? I think it would be better as a Cunning Wish. Rarely will you ever want a 4cc counterspell in a counterwar (how will you play it and keep comboing), and there are better methods of delaying the game. Its a swiss army knife but its expensive at 4cc. Might as well play Repeal instead you know? I really would recommend the wish count at 4 if you want a tide in the board. Its generally accepted as keep your Tide count at 4 if you want to find it with cantrips, and if you want to find it with Wish, then run the full playset.

Glad to hear you like PtD. I swear the more you play with it the more copies you'll be running. Its just that good.

I'm also of the opinion that 1 x FOI i usually enough. you rarely ever want to see that second copy of FOI. i think peer through depths make it likely enough for you to be able to find the copy of high tide you need to go off.

Also, i think fitting in snapcaster's into the deck just makes it all the more consistent.

Heres the list im running

3 x High Tide
4 x Reset
3 x Meditate
1 x Brain Freeze
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Opt
4 x Impulse
2 x Peer through depths
3 x Remand
3 x Snapcaster
1 x Twincast
1 x FOI
3 x Cunning Wish
2 x Turnabout
4 x Force of Will
3 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strands
12 x Island

SB
3 x Flusterstorm
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Wipe Away
1 x Rebuild
1 x Snap
1 x Turnabout
1 x Blue Sun Zenith
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Surgucal Extraction
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Pact of Negation

Not sure if i should cut the twincast to another remand, but have been quite have with that singleton for a while.

I use 1 Peek in place of an Opt and honestly I like that option to check out an opponents hand before I go off. Anyway that is a Mute Point overall.

Cryptic Command has been a little disapointing and Disrupt might bery well take its place. Althought there are times to use it's double effect to tap creatures and draw a card, etc. It is mana intensive and that hurts more often than not.

I like the Twincast idea I see in your deck and that is certainly another option to replace the Cryptic Command.

I do have a full set of Snapcaster Mage; but honestly I am trying to keep this deck creature free, I do see how it could seriously double up your Reset's, High Tides, Meditates, etc but I just havn't tested it to see what would be replaced to fit it in. Your deck does give me ideas; but I also noted that you cut part of your control package and that would be dicy vs anything with control in it (Merfolk, U/W and U/B blade control are all very heavy in my meta and I struggle vs them already -- PS, I am one of the Merfolk players as well but I am trying to break the mold). I would have to playtest it a number of times to see if I like the idea. Thanks for showing it though (same to those that showed earlier in the thread).

As I mentioned earlier, I use 3x Cunning Wish because I don't own a 4th wish. It is as simple as that; but snapcaster mage might be a way to get around that totally.

Once again thanks for all the thoughts to consider.

Cheers

Cryptic Command has indeed been weak SupREME-10. Hulk just keeps smashing you.

I can see Snapcaster being berry useful in the deck, but what will come out besides the Cryptic Command?

Its worth noting that Twincast makes a copy of Brainfreeze, just like the storm trigger. Snapcaster, however, allows you to recast it from the graveyard. Granted, you can aim Twincast at your opponent's protection spells, but Snapcaster can recast Flusterstorm or FoW from the grave. Either way, I don't think we should skip over this card as Spring Tide material necessarily.

I'm probably going to test something like
-4 Remand
-3 Turnabout
+4 Snapcaster
+3 Snap

Given that, it might improve the turn 3 kill enough to warrant moving the 4th Tide back to the maindeck.

I am not building Spring Tide, I will not be bringing Snap into the Maindeck. And Snapcaster Mage may allow you to cast a FOW from the GY; but you will have to hardcast the FoW if you read Snapcaster, as it is very specific (thus he is better on High Tide, Brainfreeze, Reset, Brainstorm, etc).

Cheers.

Figured I would list the differences between Twincast and Snapcaster:

Twincast
- Can create a copy of Cunning Wish
- Can double your opponent's spells
- Creates a copy of the spell

Snapcaster Mage
- Recasts a spell, which means you can double Brainfreeze's storm much like Remand
- Can recast Flusterstorm from the graveyard
- Higher mana investment than Twincast, its 1U so that you can pay X to recast a spell, rather than UU for the same spell.
- Can be played with Snap to even greater advantage


Might Snapcaster be good enough to be played without Snap or are the two mutually inclusive?

I think snapcaster is good enough without snap personally though I haven't tried this deck yet as I haven't obtained snapcasters. Derping around with snap might be the wrong move because then our opponent can interact with us with things other than countermagic namely creature removal becomes live and I don't want to lose because my snap was countered for lack of a legal target. On in v. twincast. I like it more than twincast personally as you don't have to have it in hand for it to be good at the time you cast the spell you want to copy. Then again you can do better stack tricks with twincast like responding to your opponents FoW on your meditate by copying meditate with twincast and continue to go off and potentially resolve that meditate later with the FoW still on the stack. The same is not true of snapcaster because as a spell is on the stack it can't be targeted with SCM so you have to let them counter the spell then you can flashback it with snapcaster.

Also with snapcaster you can get away with running less copies of cards because if you have reset + SCM you essentially have reset + 2/1 turnabout. I'm pretty sure the right number in here is 4 but the omnipresent question remains what to cut. I'm not too sure right now I should get back in practice with this deck.

If I do incorporate Snapcaster I think that it would something like this.

2 x Brain Freeze
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Cunning Wish
1 x Flash of Insight
4 x Force of Will
3 x High Tide
4 x Impulse
3 x Meditate
3 x Opt
1 x Peek
4 x Reset
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Peer Through Depths
2 x Turnabout
2 x Remand

Land
12 x Island
1 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Blue Sun's Zenith
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Hibernation
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Rebuild
1 x Snap
1 x Turnabout
1 x Wipe Away

Wish me luck and feel free to add your comments and thoughts in this regard.

If I do incorporate Snapcaster I think that it would something like this.

2 x Brain Freeze
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Cunning Wish
1 x Flash of Insight
4 x Force of Will
3 x High Tide
4 x Impulse
3 x Meditate
3 x Opt
1 x Peek
4 x Reset
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Peer Through Depths
2 x Turnabout
2 x Remand

12 x Island
1 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Scalding Tarn

SB
1 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Blue Sun's Zenith
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Hibernation
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Rebuild
1 x Snap
1 x Turnabout
1 x Wipe Away

Wish me luck and feel free to add your comments and thoughts in this regard.

Now on a sidenote. I was looking through a stack of older cards today and came across Ancestral Knowledge, too bad this card was not an instant.

I tried playing with that card in an old Dream Halls list. It worked pretty dam well.

I wouldn't say its worth playing in Solidarity though because we need instants. Spring Tide would have a much easier time playing it.

How has that list been working for you? I honestly don't like it but my style would be something more like:
-1 Brainfreeze
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand/PtD
+1 Cunning Wish

I prefer having to dig to find my wincons or Cunning Wish into them because its easier to start the combo that way. Rarely do I want Brainfreeze in my hand while I'm just getting off the ground with the combo. I prefer to see Brainfreeze later in the spell chain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I
-1 Brainfreeze
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand/PtD
+1 Cunning Wish

I prefer having to dig to find my wincons or Cunning Wish into them because its easier to start the combo that way. Rarely do I want Brainfreeze in my hand while I'm just getting off the ground with the combo. I prefer to see Brainfreeze later in the spell chain.

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I'm not saying that this is a bad idea and that spell pierce is the right card, but i'm not sure if that changes are on line with solidarity Filosophy. I mean, the deck does not need as fast as possible but do it when no fizzling is almost warranted. It's well known that solidarity tends to fizzle (not always off course) meditate into lands or counters during the spell chain are often. To avoid this situation, the deck includes "control" cards in order to gain time. I think that the biggest issue nowadays is what the cards are the correct to gain time. Which one/s would you pick from this list?

Dismember
Vendilion Clique
Repeal
Cryptic command
Disrupt
Snap
Other/s

Generally i pick 3-4 of these cards to add to the couter pack (4 FoW * 3 Remand).

Vendilion clique would be my 2nd pick from that list with repeal being the first. Snap is alright in snapcaster builds, dismember is awful (4 life to kill a creature? And it's an awful topdeck in the later turns) cryptic command is a fog effect and a really expensive cantrip. Disrupt doesn't hit CREATURES so it doesn't really work that well as stall unless it hard counters a burn spell. Only other stall cards are bounce spells like chain of vapor, echoing truth, and god forbid you play evacuation as a wish target since it costs 5 mana.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Vendilion clique would be my 2nd pick from that list with repeal being the first. Snap is alright in snapcaster builds, dismember is awful (4 life to kill a creature? And it's an awful topdeck in the later turns) cryptic command is a fog effect and a really expensive cantrip. Disrupt doesn't hit CREATURES so it doesn't really work that well as stall unless it hard counters a burn spell. Only other stall cards are bounce spells like chain of vapor, echoing truth, and god forbid you play evacuation as a wish target since it costs 5 mana.

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Vendilion + Repeal, sounds sweet. Dismember is there as an answer, cheap one, to mystic and its blades. 1 mana and you kill almost everything.
Disrupt seemed to me a cool idea that combine disruption and cantrip effect.
And cryptic is like the swiss army knife.

I haven't been active in this thread for some time now, since loosing with Solidarity started to become boring. I have played around with other combo decks instead (various versions of Doomsday, ANT, TES and TNT) But I have been goldfishing around with a Snapcaster Mage build now, and will try it out at my local legacy tournament tomorrow.

My feelings about Snapcaster Mage in this deck is that it is as broken as one could imagine. Combine it with Snap at it gets even more broken. I have always had the feeling that Snap have been a close call to include since it can work like a mini fog in today's Legacy meta (mostly goyf bashing face anyway) while not being dead when comboing off. Now with Snapcaster in the deck we have a target for our Snap even if they don't have creatures on the board.

Intuition have also always been a card on my radar, since its pretty much a Instant Demonic Tutor in our deck, but its drawback have been to sever before (sacrificing 2 High Tide/Reset/whatever in order to find one) Now with Snapcaster Mage, that drawback is no longer such an issue and I believe this push Intuition to a more stable inclusion.

List for tomorrow:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Snap
1 Turnabout
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
3 Meditate
4 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
2 Brain Freeze
2 Remand
4 Force of Will
11 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
3 Tangle
1 Beast Within
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Meditate

I might cut one of the two main deck Brain Freeze since I no longer play FoI in the deck (don't want to remove targets for Snapcaster). I splash green mostly cause of Tangle being as broken as it is, but the addition of Beast Within and Krosan Grip is an upgrade from other bounce and Wipe Away against troublesome permanents. No Flusterstorms cause I don't own any, but I'm planing on getting a play set if I get comfortable playing Solidarity again.

Wish me luck!