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No prog requires 4 mana to do, which, unfortunately is actually kind of hard to pull off turn 2 with elves unless you have a llanowar, quirion ranger, and heritage druid in your hand with 2 lands and Natural Order. That seems like a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
Faerie Macabre is the best anti-reanimator card around.
This is a list I've been tweaking for a long time. Still feel really weak to Team America, but other than that it's very well-rounded I feel.
Creatures: 34
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Vengevine
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Priest of Titania
1 Mirror Entity
1 Regal Force
Spells: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Chord of Calling
1 Crop Rotation
Land: 15
4 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
@boneclub24 Take a look at the list I've posted in the previous page if you have problems against TA-like decks.
Yesterday I played a few games with Olivier Pamart's list and it was great. It's very consistent and seems to be like Emrakul or Mirror may be "win more" cards that could give slots to some consistensy.
I want to ask something to you all. I've been playing dredge for a long time and for a long time most of the dredge players have been playing unecessary cards like Flame-Kin Zealot and other "win more/overkilish" Dread Return targets. Now and in the last year, the deck has evolved leaps and bounds due to players discussion, information sharing and kinda working together in a direction that leads the deck to it's maximum potencial and I for sure elves can be a better deck. It all comes to a point where meta can pretty much dictate your playstyle with the deck but can a list without Emrakul or Mirror could be the better based on consistensy and resilience?
I'm not a big fan of fauna shaman because it just feels so... slow. Turn 3 is the earliest you can activate her unless you use ESGs like some lists I've seen. Of course, turn 3 is the earliest you're recurring VVs with any list, so it might not be that bad. This is the list I've been playing
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Regal Force
3 Vengevine
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Priest of Titania
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Intuition
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Vengevine
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Savannah
The sideboard is still experimental, but it hits everything that really gives me trouble. One problem is that my list is extremely weak against surgical extraction and extirpate.
Dredge can win without those because it has inevitability: it puts a huge threat on the battlefield, disrupts the opponent with discard, then can creature more threats the next turn with Ichorid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
Elves only has the first option: put a staggering amount of Elves on the battlefield in one turn. However, it is really susceptible to mass removal like Firespout, Pyroclasm, Wrath, EE, etc. For this reason, having a way to ensure they survive is important.
One method for this is to make sure they don't get another turn. Emrakul neatly achieves this. Another is to win the same turn, Mirror Entity ensures this (with infinite mana). Storm based spells also work, but have less synergy with the rest of the deck.
I do not think that the deck is functional without this "win-con" method; the deck would otherwise become "Elven Advantage" that Infinitum often brings up.
@Godmode: Depends. Concordant Crossroads acts as a win condition and utility in one (albeit it gets much better with Priest/Archdruid). If you run Vengevine getting a few of them on the field with a full grip of elves on hand is fairly inevitable. Ezuri is an on-color option to Mirror Entity should you not want to splash white. If you're something of an asshole I suppose getting infinite life with Staff of Domination shenanigans and using GSZ to prevent you from decking somewhat counts as well.
@rukcus and Infinitium
Well, Olivier made 1st in two tournaments in a row (57 and 71 players) in the last two months, in a very competitive meta.
Link here: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2228&d=215190
and here: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2368&d=215777
Allways using the same list based alot on consistensy, with the VV/Joraga/Glimpse combo win-con, can go infinite counters with Joraga Warcaller because of the Nettle + GSZ synergy, you never deck urself.. There's no dead-cards in hand and that's gotta make a significant diference. Let's be real too, when the VV gang hits the board, it's pretty much over - any thing plus might be "win-more".
I'm just trying to be the most open minded possible in order to improve the deck I love (not despising Emrakul/Mirror lists).
I'm definitely not knocking the list nor the player. It does however seem that the particular metagame is advantageous to beatdown Elves. Especially against most of the SFM decks, Elves fights on another level (orthogonal if you will) that those decks aren't equipped to handle properly. When there's a lot of Tempo, Elves shines (lack of mass removal in those decks).
I've won more "stale" games by simply casting Emrakul with mediocre hands + gaea's Cradle. Emrakul also allows you to outrace certain decks (Dredge, combo, High Tide, etc) in which you have to put in all your resources to combo off, but can't pass the turn back. I've been sold on Emrakul due to this scenario; but i can understand some might not prefer it.
Olivier lists (and Vengevines MD lists) doesn't depend on Glimpse of Nature that much. By the way, they don't depend on it at all.
I've been testing this configuration for some weeks and about ~70% of the matches I won, I didn't cast a single Glimpse of Nature.
Vengevine is simply stunning. Mostly in a deck that runs 30+ creatures. If Fauna Shaman lives until she can tap (and Wirewood Symbiote allows us to do that), she can get AT LEAST 2 activations (4 Symbiotes + 4 Quirion Rangers), and that means that those angry vines are coming.
Moreover, that list is more resilient against mass removal (namely Wrath of God, Perish and Firespout). Just bounce some elves, and replay them, to get Vengevines back (which makes Elvish Visionary much better, actually).
The only bad interaction of Vengevines, is that Surgical Extraction is quite popular nowdays. But that's why Olivier plays Natural Order in sideboard. And it works.
My list is the following:
13 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle (do not own the fourth, but not sure if needed).
1 Dryad Arbor (singleton to abuse Fauna Shaman and GSZ)
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Vengevine
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
I didn't opt for NO+Prog sideboard, because my meta has a lot of Combo (Storm, Hive Mind and Dredge).
Choke is awsome, and it's a must handle spell against Control. If it sticks, GG.
@Vandalize
How do you do agaisnt combo decks like ANT, Show and Tell, Dredge, Reaminator...? Thorn of Amethyst seems to be very fragile or easy to get dealt with and ultimately will take consistensy from the deck.
This deck seems to be the best version of Elves in the current meta (Stoneblade, Punishing Zoo, Canadian Threshold, Stone Bant, Punishing Maverick) just because of it's versatility and consistensy, but in a storm/combo meta the Emrakul/Mirror seems to be a must.
Again, this all comes to a question of metagame
By the time you can cast Emrakul or Mirror Entity (turn 3, at least), the ANT player has already stomed you, or you've been Cabal Therapied twice by Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
So, Thorn delays them pretty well (you might gain 1 turn, or 2). That's enough time to set up Vengevines, or even GSZ into Gaddock Teeg.
I know this deck is very poor in a Combo infected meta, but if you tweak the sideboard a little, and be a little lucky, you can win many matches.
I've been playing Elves for a while now (with VV MD) but I keep having problems with the BUG MU. Any advice on your sideboarding strategy to tackle this problem? Most BUGlists in my meta play with Liliana of the veil, snapcaster + churgical Extraction & Deed. (Deed & Extraction after SB)
My plan against BUG used to be to cheat out VVs, but if they stock up on extractions, it will be a lot harder. What i've been doing is siding in Cabal Therapy and Though seize to aggressively attack their removal while still trying to cheat out VVs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Also, I'm going to try out a Fauna Shaman build. Though with intuition, I don't know what to take out. Also going to try and fit in brainstorms with my intuition build since I'm already splashing blue.
Hi guys,
It's Pamart Olivier. I think my decklist it's the best if you haven't combo.deck in your meta.
Decklist full combo it's not good actually because lot of tempo deck.
Natural Order it's very very good Vs hate grave and it's obvious win in lot of Mus (Maverick, Zoo, Loam...).
First of all, congratulations on your recent sucess!Quote:
Originally Posted by blind
I've been testing your list and the results are great vs any deck other than ANT, show n tell, Reanimator - it's kind of a coin toss, it's a question of who goes off first. The Scavenging Ooze has been helping in the Reanimator MU tho. I love the list, its probably the most consistent Elves deck I've played. But, at the end of the day the best style to play depends on the metagame despite the core of the deck beeing allways the same.
I just want to ask you how do you deal with Reanimator decks? And what about combo/storm? Play and pray? And by the way, can you tell us a little about your choice to play Carpet of Flowers in the SB?
Edit: I gotta say the results are very similar to Samuel Poulain's list. The diference it's a big change in playstyle both in MD and SB. I love both lists, I don't even know what list to use if I go to a tournament!
Why don't you play Ezuri, Renegade Leader over Joraga Warcaller? He can pump the turn he comes into play even without Symbiote's Bounce Protection and also gives trample. I guess there's not much difference between them when you go off, but Ezuri is better than Joraga IMO when you're not going off, but just going beatdown.
Also, Ezuri is better against Counterbalance.deck
Reanimator it's not a good Mu, Scavenging Ooze is too slow. Vs Combo : I think pray it's good game plan. :) If you side 5-6 cards Vs combo (Cabal, Gaddock, Orim...) you can always lose. This Mu becomes less bad but still bad.Quote:
I just want to ask you how do you deal with Reanimator decks? And what about combo/storm? Play and pray? And by the way, can you tell us a little about your choice to play Carpet of Flowers in the SB?
Carpet of Flowers is pretty good Vs RUG Tempo. In this Mu, post sb, Llanowar-like are very bad (Submerge = Timewalk). Ooze it's very important in this Mu (gain life is relevant).
Because he cost 1. My decklist has a high curve. I rarely need Joraga to kill, 4 VV is suffisant. I wanted a victory condition the least restrictive and Joraga it's better : He cost 1 (good foor VV and Glimpse plan...)Quote:
Why don't you play Ezuri, Renegade Leader over Joraga Warcaller?
About my previous deck, I just realized that I'm an idiot and coffin purge does the same thing as purify the grave, but is in the color that I'm already playing.
I just want to say that this build is completely nuts and I want to give huge props for the creator. I've tested the shit out of it and the way everything plays out is just simply amazing. The fact that it doesn't rely on manalords at all shows that the amount of mana you create with cradle/heritage is enough and running priest or archdruid now feels like it's absolute overkill and it is completely unnecessary to run them. I'm so glad that finaly someone found a perfect elf list and hoghly recommend it to anyone playing elves. Great job Olivier Pamart!Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
Really nice list!
1. Wouldn't it be useful to splash Blue & play 3 Intuition, 1 Fauna Shaman, 1 Land instead of 4 Fauna Shaman,1 Gaea's Cradle? I guess Olivier doesn't splash because of the many Tempo/Canadian Threshold Decks with Stilfe/Wasteland in the current Metagame.
!Questions on the sideboard:
2. For what creatures do you need Dismember except Ethersworn Canonist? Is it that good?
3. How do you use Carpet of Flowers? Where is it useful, how & in which matchups do you sideboard it in?
Thanks :)