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So, I'm hooked up.
I've tried a version with call to the netherworlds shenanigans, and even with spy and chancellor of the forge as kill/accelerator it does not kill T2 consistently.
Only three things to do so:
1) Trust that "Again, I'm trying something new. "
2) wait 'till Saturday
3) wish you good luck
That must be one hell of a novelty because I'm not even certain that's statistically possible with 8 Gitaxian Probe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
The list doesn't play Call to the Netherworld. It doesn't even play Chancellor of the Forge.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
To simplify things, let's think about this from outside the box. Manaless Dredge has a reasonable shot at performing turn two kills - that's never been in question. If you get a good opening hand with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian, you're obviously going to do some damage. The version I'm playing is obviously a Spy build, because simply turning your deck sideways is the fastest way to win. But there are several key factors that one needs to consider when trying to combo out as quickly, yet efficiently as possible.
What this basically means is that I prefer more consistent turn-two wins as opposed to novelty turn-one wins. Cards like the Baubles - and even draw effects for that matter - don't always guarantee you're going to combo out because you still have to wait a turn even if you hit Ichorids and Nether Shadows. There's one oft-overlooked aspect of this equation that always seems to get lost in the shuffle of how to combo out extremely fast, and that is Bridge from Below. I distinctly remember trying to break the asymmetrical aspect of Bridge back in the day by using cards like Contagion one-sidedly to my advantage so that I could facilitate faster kills. (Dredge six, hit a Narcomoeba, dump some Bridges with Phantasmagorian, Therapy for a couple of zombies and drop an Arbor - done deal.)
So why stop there?
The fastest way to consistently enable turn two wins is to abuse what the graveyard has to offer us by preemptively including cards that make it happen. Each dredge is a virtual draw spell, so we can only work with what we're given. Gitaxian Probe is a great card, no doubt. But for all of its pros, there are also cons, one of which is the useless nature of it hitting the graveyard off a dredge. Consistency in this archetype is comprised a large part in its redundancy, because there really isn't any draw or filter.
The point behind all of this is rather simple: My goal is to generate tokens as humanly fast as possible to not only flood the board with threats, but enable lightning-fast Dread Returns that mimic the style and speed akin to that of Mike Tyson knocking out Little Mac in the first minute of action. The heart and soul of the fastest and most consistent wins in Manaless rests with Dread Return, which in turn rests with creatures to fuel it, which in turn rests with Bridges to generate tokens to fuel it (Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith perform their roles brilliantly, but I'm also taking it a step further). If you can find a way to make the most creatures as fast as possible, you're going to win.
Get what I'm saying here?
If you can find a way to make the most creatures as fast as possible, you're going to win.
Great! I like riddles
But as much creatures as possible, with no land in the deck and no chancellor of the forge?
And without additional draw in form of baubles/call?
Only ornitopther, memnite, shield sphere and kobolds-like creatures left, right? (+Basking Rootwalla)
Is that your way?
although it's horrible, Pact of the Titan technically is an option.
Sounds like cheerios....kinda.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Always enjoy Hollywood tech. Looking forward to the new list. Good luck at the tourney.
Right when Gatecrash came out I played with this deck idea. It was fast, but I ended up pulling them in favor of Contagions because Deathrite Shaman was the new hottest thing. Might be worth revisiting since DRS has fallen "less" in favor, but I have been having to much fun with Blue Dredge. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by dte
Pretty sure that doesn't work, I tried 8 Kobolds as a joke a couple of years back and it wasn't anywhere as consistent as he's saying his novelty is, the only other thing I can think of is he's playing Mossdog and Gigapede if he wants to maximize the productivity of every Dredge but that doesn't increase your fundamental turn either.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Edit:
There's also those X casting cost, 0 toughness artifact creatures that come into play and die as soon as you cast them, Legacy Hulk Flash used them for the Disciple of the Vault kill, which is the only other way I know of to maximize Bridge triggers because you get to combine the creature and the sacrifice outlet into a single card and save your Cabal Therapy for Narcomoeba.
Phyrexian Marauder and Shifting Wall, final answer.
Vengevines might be workable if you had a lot of free creatures
LED plus Acorn Harvest or Lingering Souls
LED plus Gravecrawler and/or Dregscape Zombie
Salvage Titan plus Sword of the Meek (you can dredge into all of it for profit, provided you have a few more artifacts in the deck - this doesn't exactly seem like a turn 2 plan to me)
The power of the draw spells is very much rooted in their ability to find whatever you need, and not just a particular sort of piece. They can make progress towards your creatures, interchangeable creature substitutes like Bridge from Below, as well as the Dread Return itself or even the reanimation target.
I'm very curious to see what might trump that sort of versatility.
Serum Powder in there somwhere - He wants consistancy and that gives it.
Maybe something crazy like lotus petal/entomb? Throw a bridge in to yard as soon as dredging is available?
Looking forward to it.
Built-in sacrifice outlet? Check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Stacks on top of Shadows? Check.
Makes up to four zombies for zero mana? Check.
Cannot be Spell Pierced or Flusterstormed? Check.
Can make multiple tokens under Cage? Check.
Free to cast around Thalia? Check.
Facilitates more tokens when Dread Returned? Check.
..."Manaless Dredge X"...?
God, I hope it's Demon of Death's Gate.
Now THAT would be AMAZING!Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
3rd times a charm, sorry to spoil your surprise but I know the build you're thinking of, roughly, and I'm sure you'll do fine on Saturday now that we have an upgraded kill condition and Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster Mage is no longer a part of the meta game. Not sure it's as viable as the Force of Will and Whirlpool Rider build, but for the fearless budget Dredgers it's definitely a build worth pursuing.
Plus you get to play a card from Visions in Legacy, how degrading is that for your opponent :P
Forget paying 6 life, Delraich FTW!
Also Final Fortune, I play Vision Charm from Visions in one of my legacy decks that I have taken to several SCG Opens. Guaranteed Judge call EVERY time and I love it!
I am really looking forward to this list. It sounds like it will play EXACTLY how I want to play manaless dredge: Throw caution to the wind and go all-in.
Best of luck! I can honestly say, I will be watching this thread like a hawk starting on Saturday waiting for you to post your list!
No need to wait really,Quote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thrug
3-4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
7/8 Phyrexian Marauder and Shifting Wall
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3/4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Now go forth and raid your dealer's bargain bins!
I think you guys solved my mystery. So at a SCG in October I was playing in round 8 next to another Manaless Player and I was looking over and I could see him going threw then shuffling his deck and I swear I thought I kept seeing Phyrexian Dreadnought's in a Spy list! His match ended before mine and he walked away. I was hoping to see him when I was waiting in line for Prizes at the end, but he wasn't there. I was racking my brain over what Artifacts he had. I am now guessing he was shuffling Phyrexian Marauders.
Unless you've removed critical pieces of the graveyard strategy, I doubt it would weaken the deck very much if at all. I would personally never cut Probe as I find it to be a staple at this point, so I would just play 4 of those sac guys in the Unmask slots if I were trying that route.
My main issue is that those guys make you lean harder on Bridge. At the moment, we are much less reliant on that card than the other dredge variants and I'm not trying to move in the same direction as them. The Probe you removed (if that's what you actually took out, Mr. Keller, I dunno of course) only requires a dredger, which is a mandate anyways. It seems like a card that should never come out.