Not just for playing Tin Fins, but if cards use old rules wording look up the oracle text on them. Some cards have had rules updates/changes that are important to know.
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Not just for playing Tin Fins, but if cards use old rules wording look up the oracle text on them. Some cards have had rules updates/changes that are important to know.
Hey Source!
I have been playing Magic off and on for about 15 years, I've always been a fan of fast combo win strategies
(I like to take breaks and relax at tourneys especially).
I intend on playing Tin Fins in a month in Indianapolis using the following list:
4 Underground Sea
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Entomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Shallow Grave
4 Brainstorm
1 Reanimate
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Chrome Mox
SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Deathmark
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
3 Chain of Vapor
There's of course the onion core, but the outer layers are still up for debate to me, and I'm sure others who are more well versed in the history of this deck's development.
Could anyone give me some insight into how the deck may be improved? I've been slinging it on MWS with good results so far (Deathrite Shaman is not that scary btw).
I'm not really looking to splash either red (Burning Wish) or white (Silence), I just think more hand disruption is better.
Thanks!
TTX
http://s1.dmcdn.net/MQ7wt/1280x720-ffY.jpg
What do you think about cutting 1 Usee for 1 Sland to have a fetchable scource for WQuote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Would make that change too. I ended often in situations, where I needed a white land to be able to cast Children. Besides that, the list looks solid, the only thing I would change would be another Bayou to the SB and instead of a Chain of Vapor a Krosan Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaku
Greetings,
Kathal
Speaking of SBs, is the G splash the optimal build? Is it pretty much determined that Abrupt Decay is better than Serenity?
@TTX, you can also try out the -1 CoK, -1 Thoughtseize for +2 Lim Dul's Vault. Still not sure I'm liking it myself, but that's an option you can look into as well.
I have Tendrils and Elesh Norn in the SB. There's some Dredge and Burn decks by me, so having the free Massacre effect when there's no opponent Plains on the other side of the table is nice.
I don't believe that anyone has determined an "optimal" build for a reactive sideboard. A lot of that depends on what you want to be ready for and what you expect to face.
White gives you access to Silence and Serenity (and less need for extra lands in the board), Green gives you access to Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence.
Personally I don't like ANY of the reactive boards as there just isn't enough room to be properly prepared for everything. Furthermore, it's very tough to not water down the main deck when sideboarding as well - bringing in 2-3 pieces max is about the best you can do, which means you just have to take a guess as to what they have boarded in against you game 2. Just my opinion anyway.
Agreed - moreso than other combo decks I have trouble finding a reasonable number of places I can make cuts without feeling like I just bombed my own deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
That and I just love the look across the table when you put a Doomsday on the table and ask if it's good.
The sideboard is always going to be the weakest point of the deck. Because we're somewhere between Reanimator and Storm, we have a really large attack surface postboard. Flusterstorm, Deathrite, RiP, Needle, Canonist, Containment Priest, Surgical, Grafdigger's, Chalice, Karakas...there are just so many relevant cards of varying colors and types that half the time it feels pointless to bring anything in. You basically have to start with 2Chainz and then pick 1-3 additional cards based on what you think they might have. Show and Tell is an option, but we don't have the density or variety of creatures that Reanimator does, so it's harder to pull off, then Needle and Karakas still crap the buffet.
A transformative board is probably the best bet for a large event, but that's always going to offer a new set of weaknesses and typically not much in the way of protection, so you're partially relying on surprise factor.
Maybe we should just start boarding in 4x Chancellor of the Annex and scooping if we don't have a turn 1 after that.
Or we start playing with the Powder version (which is faster but more inconsistent) and just yolo game 2/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I'm still playing the DD sideboard, since I don't like the other options.
Greetings,
Kathal
@RichardCheese I am thinking about that too, a transformative sideboard to increase surprise factor, but I have no idea what it should become, Dimir Tempo?
What would you say to Chancellor of the Annex and/or Pact of Negation or Unmask?
@.dk I really like Tin Fins because it can sustain some reactive sideboarding (compared to Belcher or Oops All Spells)
@KSC Green seems good against counter top lock.
@Damaku and Kathal I like the idea of one scrubland just in case. Should I board Silence instead of Defense Grid?
I'd like to continue the transformational sideboard discussion, but I don't know where to take it.
If you're going transformative, I'd go with .dk's Doomsday board. It's probably the most solid transform plan, and generally better than the reactive options as long as you're not at a small local event where everyone knows what's up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Still, there are a ton of options. You could try to jam Painter/Grindstone. You could rock the man plan with Delvers and Mentors. You could go for a few more bombs, Forces, and Show and Tell. If you're feeling nostalgic you could run AdNaus. If you want to make me really happy, you could figure out some way to make Empty the Pits work. The options are limitless when you stop focusing on winning.
Yes, it can have some reactive sideboarding - but you have to decide which area they are going to fight you on: graveyard or hand/stack (like vs. other storm decks). We don't have enough room in the current build to deal with both.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
As far as transformations go... there are a few ideas in the OP. Might start there and see if there are any other ideas that you have that aren't covered.
Im a big fan of the doomsday sideboard since it allows you to still be proactive but still run a different gameplan. Heres the generic one for reference
4x doomsday
3x lion's eye diamond
4x sensei's divinining top
1 shelldock isle
1x ideas unbound
1x chain of vapor
1x pithing needle
Thanks all,
I just read this excellent tourney report http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-with-Tin-Fins
I really like the Doomsday transformation, that way the opponent will always be guessing.
Can someone outline for a proper Doomsday stack? I'm kind of an idiot. All I could imagine is
1. Shelldock Isle
2. Emrakul
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
Does it not matter what else goes there?
Is LED really that important? Could it be something else?
Thanks!
Consider any of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Pithing Needle (For Wasteland or Karakas)
Chain of Vapor (For random hate or Moat)
Doomsday (Refill your deck for a few more turns if things are reeeeeally wonky)
ToA (For corner-case racing situations)
Silence/Discard (Opposing combo)
If you have a land drop avail, then the top card is shelldock followed by emrakul, needle, chain, dd is the std emrakul pile.
Toa wins usually look like
Ideas unbound
Led
Led
Probe (or led if you have top/another probe availible)
Toa
This varies a lot depending on storm, floatimg mana, draw effects availible
Doomsday is good, but people are now very much aware of it, and killing yourself is an ever-present threat when forced to just go for it. You can drop the third LED for another bounce / spare SB slot, but it does limit some of the storm piles. I’ve found the Sheldock plan to be very weak against most of the field, being painfully slow.
Painter has been good for me in the past with Enlightened Tutor for both sides of it, and a mini-toobox of Defence Grid, etc. That said, I’m still seeing a lot of Emrakul which makes life difficult / impossible.
Has anyone had any success with a man-plan based around Mentor ?
I was thinking about using mentor in a transformation board into stoneblade.
Something like
4x stoneforge
1x skull
1x jitte
3x mentor
1-2x land
3-4 open slots for removal/spells
The only thing i dont like is how expensive mentor is, so something like tnn where the cost is paid only once seems better
DD stacks quickly become a separate discussion in themselves . There's a lot of "what do I have in hand, on board and know/think my opponent has available". A quick rundown is within this thread (linking from the OP) with some general ideas/info on running the DD transformation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
To be honest, with DD I suggest just practicing. It's quite difficult to really memorize/master piles as game states can hugely impact what you build. I've had to build some really weird friggin piles to win that I'd never have just had locked in the memory banks.
Few examples:
My hand is Probe, Probe, Ritual, DD, LED with SDT in play (pulling this from one of the last times I wrote down matches)
Knowing there's nothing relevant in my opponents hand:
Ritual --> LED --> DD
Build a basic: IU-LED-LED-Ponder-ToA
Shelldock piles tend to look something like this (assuming you have draw effects)
required hate/protection, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Doomsday
With SI you need a way to quickly get it online (remember you're sticking yourself pretty hard with the DD life loss), protect it and have the ability to kill before your diminished library does you in (or the opponent finishes your fragile remaining life total)
Having additional draw effects (Top, Probe, etc.) can change your pile options quite a bit - less mana or requiring a different stacking of cards.
As I mentioned in my short DD primer... I would highly encourage people to play Doomsday as a deck to learn, and not just pick this up cold.
If you want to practice with the exact configuration that I used (that Lejay originally designed), you could just try playing lots of games in that sideboard configuration. Your best bet is to just play and try to figure things out. Maybe play face up with a friend and see if you can figure out piles and such together.
Just remember not to deck yourself with Shelldock piles - either follow up with a mini-Tendrils or another Doomsday as KaiSchafroth posted.